Blogs joining crime fight

[Liz]

http://www.pe.com/sharedcontent/southwest/pecom/duncan/breakout/PE_News_Local_D_blogs12.1d674de1.html

07:06 AM PDT on Friday, August 12, 2005
By DAVID HERMANN / The Press-Enterprise

WHO READS BLOGS?

Some 16 percent of U.S. adults -- about 32 million people -- are blog readers. That represents about 20 percent of the newspaper audience and about 40 percent of the talk-radio audience. Source: Pew Internet and American Life Project

True crime blogs:

"The Cellar" at www.jetd63.blogspot.com -- information about Joseph Edward Duncan III, his past and crimes that he might have committed.

"Clews: The Historic True Crime Blog" at www.laurajames.typepad.com -- Laura James focuses on crimes that in some cases date back centuries.

"In the Hat" at www.inthehat.blogspot.com -- focuses on crime in Los Angeles, especially gang-related crime

"The Dark Side" at www.planethuff.com/darkside/ -- Steve Huff
specializes in murder and missing-persons cases.


On July 11, the author of the online blog, "Life Without Prejudice" posted a photo of convicted sex offender Joseph Edward Duncan III next to a well-circulated composite sketch of the suspect in the 1997 kidnapping and murder of Anthony Martinez.
After adding a hat and mustache to Duncan's picture, the blog's creator went on to draw comparisons between Duncan -- already charged with abducting two young children from their Idaho home and killing their family -- and the suspect in the kidnapping and murder of the 10-year-old Beaumont boy.

On Aug. 3, more than three weeks after that initial blog post on www.lwop.blogspot.com, authorities announced that Duncan was the prime suspect in the Martinez case.

Bloggers and experts who study the online journals say computers and the Internet have given armchair sleuths the ability to compete with police detectives and journalists when it comes to breaking news and solving crimes. Bloggers use the Internet to dig for clues, investigate leads, develop theories, and then almost instantaneously post the results of their work into online journals, called blogs.

>>> continued at link above

Thought this deserved a thread of it's own!

:woohoo: It's nice to see our blogger friends getting some of the recognition they deserve! :clap: Congrats to Planet Huff for getting
additional media attention, to what you got on At Large this past weekend!! WTG, Steve! :woohoo:

[mysteriew]

I have seen some quotes from LE in the media that they aren't real happy by the blogs publishing their info.
Well pardon me, but many times if LE had been more forthcoming with info about a case, the case could have been solved much sooner. Look at the Brooke Wilberger case. Nothing for a long time. Then LE publishes an inquiry about a green van seen in the area and a guy named "Brian". Within a short time the van is located, and the murderer is going on trial.
Many, many unidentified remains sit in coroners offices and are buried in unmarked graves. LE says we tried to locate family and got no results. Yet except for (sometimes) a small local announcement- no info is given out to the public. Many times there is no description of the remains published anywhere. Leaving grieving families everywhere to search and come up empty.
I can agree that for investigation and legal purposes, LE cannot and should not publish every detail about a crime. But when the case goes cold, they might as well open it to the public.
In Martinez no it probably wouldn't have been solved any sooner anyway. But you never know.
And it does say something about the inadequcies (sp) of the LE communication. The fact that untrained, unprofessional "armchair sleuthers" can come up with the info means the ability to do so is there. So maybe they need to rethink and remodel their info gathering and communication programs.

So a big Yahhh!!!! to the bloggers for showing it is possible to do.

[misterallgood]

http://www.pe.com/sharedcontent/southwest/pecom/duncan/breakout/PE_News_Local_D_blogs12.1d674de1.html

07:06 AM PDT on Friday, August 12, 2005
By DAVID HERMANN / The Press-Enterprise

WHO READS BLOGS?

Some 16 percent of U.S. adults -- about 32 million people -- are blog readers. That represents about 20 percent of the newspaper audience and about 40 percent of the talk-radio audience. Source: Pew Internet and American Life Project

True crime blogs:

"The Cellar" at www.jetd63.blogspot.com (http://www.jetd63.blogspot.com) -- information about Joseph Edward Duncan III, his past and crimes that he might have committed.

"Clews: The Historic True Crime Blog" at www.laurajames.typepad.com (http://www.laurajames.typepad.com) -- Laura James focuses on crimes that in some cases date back centuries.

"In the Hat" at www.inthehat.blogspot.com (http://www.inthehat.blogspot.com) -- focuses on crime in Los Angeles, especially gang-related crime

"The Dark Side" at www.planethuff.com/darkside/ (http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/) -- Steve Huff
specializes in murder and missing-persons cases.


On July 11, the author of the online blog, "Life Without Prejudice" posted a photo of convicted sex offender Joseph Edward Duncan III next to a well-circulated composite sketch of the suspect in the 1997 kidnapping and murder of Anthony Martinez.
After adding a hat and mustache to Duncan's picture, the blog's creator went on to draw comparisons between Duncan -- already charged with abducting two young children from their Idaho home and killing their family -- and the suspect in the kidnapping and murder of the 10-year-old Beaumont boy.

On Aug. 3, more than three weeks after that initial blog post on www.lwop.blogspot.com (http://www.lwop.blogspot.com), authorities announced that Duncan was the prime suspect in the Martinez case.

Bloggers and experts who study the online journals say computers and the Internet have given armchair sleuths the ability to compete with police detectives and journalists when it comes to breaking news and solving crimes. Bloggers use the Internet to dig for clues, investigate leads, develop theories, and then almost instantaneously post the results of their work into online journals, called blogs.

>>> continued at link above

Thought this deserved a thread of it's own!

:woohoo: It's nice to see our blogger friends getting some of the recognition they deserve! :clap: Congrats to Planet Huff for getting
additional media attention, to what you got on At Large this past weekend!! WTG, Steve! :woohoo:
Well, Thank YOU. The thing is, I think blogging owes a lot to messageboards, which have been around since the beginning of the internet. They're cousins, in my opinion. That's why I never hesitate to at least read messageboards, even when I don't have time to post.

BTW -- I'm going to be on Fox again, looks like. Sunday night, Aug. 14, 9 p.m. ET -- The Big Story. This publicity thing is bizarre, sometimes.

[chicoliving]

Well, Thank YOU. The thing is, I think blogging owes a lot to messageboards, which have been around since the beginning of the internet. They're cousins, in my opinion. That's why I never hesitate to at least read messageboards, even when I don't have time to post.

BTW -- I'm going to be on Fox again, looks like. Sunday night, Aug. 14, 9 p.m. ET -- The Big Story. This publicity thing is bizarre, sometimes.
Ahhhh now I know who you are! You did a fanatastic job on whatever show it was I saw you on. :) I'll be sure to check out the Big Story Sunday....way to go!

[Cowgirl]

:rolleyes: Ever stop to think that LE might be doing these things already before the bloggers start chattering away about it and LE might fear an investigation could be derailed by publicity? Ever stop to think that LE gets paid to do these investigations and might just find bloggers taking credit a little pathetic?

I say it again: It is part of LE's job to try to tie a serial killer to other cold cases. Every agency in the country is looking, and has been looking, for a tie in with Duncan and any open cases they have.

Tips and sightings are very helpful. Don't stop looking for clues. But please, stop acting like you invented the wheel. It's a bit insulting to LE agencies all over the country for bloggers to take credit for what LE does. Even when they thank you for your tip, they are probably just being polite as they roll their eyes.

If you don't like my opinion, you need a reality check. Steve Huff was very humble when he appeared on Fox last weekend. It was nice to see.

[Tom'sGirl]

:rolleyes: Ever stop to think that LE might be doing these things already before the bloggers start chattering away about it and LE might fear an investigation could be derailed by publicity? Ever stop to think that LE gets paid to do these investigations and might just find bloggers taking credit a little pathetic?

I say it again: It is part of LE's job to try to tie a serial killer to other cold cases. Every agency in the country is looking, and has been looking, for a tie in with Duncan and any open cases they have.

Tips and sightings are very helpful. Don't stop looking for clues. But please, stop acting like you invented the wheel. It's a bit insulting to LE agencies all over the country for bloggers to take credit for what LE does. Even when they thank you for your tip, they are probably just being polite as they roll their eyes.

If you don't like my opinion, you need a reality check. Steve Huff was very humble when he appeared on Fox last weekend. It was nice to see.Well, it appears you're giving the same response as you did to my posting when I said I gave NO CREDIT to the Riverside LE in the Michael Martinez case, but rather to posters who sent inquires to the FBI and the FBI contacted Riverside LE!

I don't know why it is so hard for you to give some/little/tiny credit to someone who did connect the dots, just because it wasn't you!

Jeez.........:doh:

[fran]

FWIW, it took LE eight months from the time of Joel Courtney's arrest in New Mexico, to announce the connection to the Brooke Wilberger case in Oregon. IMO, it's because the case in New Mexico was low profile and not under the radar screen of bloggers.

It only took a couple of weeks for LE to connect JED arrested in Idaho, to the Martinez case in California some years ago. IMO, it was with the assist of the bloggers.

JMHO and my :twocents:
fran

[dragonfly]

From what I've seen on tv and heard LE is so overworked with daily duties that many precincts do not even have a cold case person full time. Sometimes it's soon-to-be retired police who fill this role. Not to take anything away from the soon-to-be retired people but what I see is it isn't high priority and they often don't have the financial resources needed either. Now if the case is high profile and the FBI get involved thats different, then like we saw in CdL manpower is there and the FBI lab in Virginia was made available. But even then with all the high profile LE and forensic labs, LE needed a break, some leads, without Shasta being paraded thru Denny's the Groene/McKensie case and now the Anthony Martinez and the Sammiejo White/Carmen Cubias were going to be unsolved FOREVER! I think LE cold case personnel are quite willing to listen to leads from the public which includes blogger who have put considerable thought into passing along a lead..Hey, what have they got to lose! We the blogger have the time, maybe our resources aren't that of LE but we are extra hands on board. IMO I can't imagine LE getting "turned off" by bloggers.

[Cowgirl]

Well, it appears you're giving the same response as you did to my posting when I said I gave NO CREDIT to the Riverside LE in the Michael Martinez case, but rather to posters who sent inquires to the FBI and the FBI contacted Riverside LE!

I don't know why it is so hard for you to give some/little/tiny credit to someone who did connect the dots, just because it wasn't you!

Jeez.........:doh:You have a right to your opinion. I also have a right to mine. And I give credit where credit is due. But too many amateur detectives are patting themselves on the back, in my opinion. By the way, the FBI was on top of the Martinez case long before the posters were. Just because they don't announce it to everyone does not mean they are not working it. And I have no idea if Riverside was working on it, had given up on it, or didn't even think about it until the FBI mentioned it. But neither do you, unless you work there.

This board also had Duncan tried and convicted for the Warner girl too. I enjoy court cases, but I in no way care about credit for playing UNPAID detective. If I wanted to do that, I would do it professionally, not as a hobby. I don't care a flip about solving crimes, so I don't even try to connect dots. I would rather play amateur Perry Mason than amateur Paul Drake.

[mysteriew]

I would rather play amateur Perry Mason than amateur Paul Drake.

Did you know there is a trial forum? It is located just under crimes in the news.

[mysteriew]

From what I've seen on tv and heard LE is so overworked with daily duties that many precincts do not even have a cold case person full time. Sometimes it's soon-to-be retired police who fill this role. Not to take anything away from the soon-to-be retired people but what I see is it isn't high priority and they often don't have the financial resources needed either. Now if the case is high profile and the FBI get involved thats different, then like we saw in CdL manpower is there and the FBI lab in Virginia was made available. But even then with all the high profile LE and forensic labs, LE needed a break, some leads, without Shasta being paraded thru Denny's the Groene/McKensie case and now the Anthony Martinez and the Sammiejo White/Carmen Cubias were going to be unsolved FOREVER! I think LE cold case personnel are quite willing to listen to leads from the public which includes blogger who have put considerable thought into passing along a lead..Hey, what have they got to lose! We the blogger have the time, maybe our resources aren't that of LE but we are extra hands on board. IMO I can't imagine LE getting "turned off" by bloggers.

All very good points.
More and more LE is accepting that there will always be some cold cases they will need help in solving. I have been hearing about some volunteer cold case units being set up in some cities, which utilize not only retired LE, but also some private citizens. They are finding it valuable to have people on board who are able to think outside of the box of a normal investigator. And these units are starting to have results. That shows the attitude of many LE.
IMO if LE has done fingerprints, DNA, and all of the normal investigative work- then after a period of time when a case has gone cold, LE should open the case up to public scrutiny (in a controlled way like the cold case units). Too many LE have let cases languish unsolved with minimal work on them for one reason or another (sometimes it is lack of resources, too many cases, lack of imagination, coverup, or lack of interest). So if they have gotten to the point of having a cold case- the case is packed away in a box somewhere to solve someday- why not think outside the box and allow public assistance on it.

[Incognito]

There seems to be enough unsolved crimes out there for all of us to help. I have faith in LE, but it is often times a tip from outside that help solve crimes. I think blogging can be helpful in the fact that LE can look at different angles they may not have thought of.

Steve Huff seems to get mentioned quite often, but LWOP's Hamlet (CTV Poster) actually mentioned the Martinez case before Steve did.

[Tom'sGirl]

Well, it appears you're giving the same response as you did to my posting when I said I gave NO CREDIT to the Riverside LE in the Anthony Michael Martinez case, but rather to posters who sent inquires to the FBI and the FBI contacted Riverside LE!

I don't know why it is so hard for you to give some/little/tiny credit to someone who did connect the dots, just because it wasn't you!

Jeez.........:doh:
I tried to edit my post above, but too late I guess. I left off Anthonys' first name in my post.

[Cowgirl]

There seems to be enough unsolved crimes out there for all of us to help. I have faith in LE, but it is often times a tip from outside that help solve crimes. I think blogging can be helpful in the fact that LE can look at different angles they may not have thought of.

Steve Huff seems to get mentioned quite often, but LWOP's Hamlet (CTV Poster) actually mentioned the Martinez case before Steve did.And it was refreshing to hear Steve Huff say that last weekend when he was being credited by Fox. Everyone is so absolute here. All I ever said was people ought to stop taking credit for things, not that they should stop looking. Of course the police need tips. Of course they appreciate the help. They cannot be everywhere. But bloggers and posters taking credit is just unseemly. And it is bragging. That's all.

[Vet4Bush]

I only wish LE would release more information on crimes, especially cold cases where they have nothing to lose, so that blogs could be of some assistance. I think that a national database or super spreadsheet which breaks out all cases into categories of clues would be a huge help to LE in tieing together information for easy searching. Maybe the FBI already has this, but I wonder if local LE has access to it.

[Annagirl]

I have to admit, I'm with you on this one, Cowgirl.

Earlier in the Groene investigation, I was dumbfounded by some posters' comments, on this board and others, concerning the police investigation. One post, in particular, for example, said something along the lines of, "LE just doesn't seem to working hard enough. If I were them, I would swab the Groenes' toilet to check for DNA...also, I'm sure they could have known if Dylan and Shasta witnessed the bodies in the house by looking for small footprints in the blood in the living room...". The poster said this as though he/she was thinking of something LE had not already. Like Cowgirl stated, just because LE does not publicly announce every detail of the investigation does not mean they are not intelligent, educated in doing their jobs, and covering all their bases.

I also think Steve Huff was humble on FOX recently. However, I have noticed in his blog that he often begins posts saying things such as how the media is not giving him and bloggers credit where credit is due, or complaining about who is getting credit for blogging about a certain specificity first, and then follows up with something like, 'but not that that matters...what matters is justice for the victims and families'. Well, Steve, if it doesn't matter, why write it to begin with? I know that I, for one, much prefer his entries when he sticks to the crimes and maintains a level of journalistic objectivity and leaves his ego where it belongs: far, far away from these brutal crimes.

Personally, I much prefer to blog/post/ponder the psychology behind the killers, the effects on society and the victims, what each crime means, in addition to reiteration of the released known details of crimes, than to try to "solve" these crimes with only my computer. As web sleuthers, we do not have crime labs; we have our imaginations and what we read from news articles and other sites on the Internet. I don't pretend I can solve a crime that way because realistically, I can't.

I do feel that bloggers heads (or fingers) have been getting a little inflated lately.

[Tom'sGirl]

[QUOTE=Annagirl]I have to admit, I'm with you on this one, Cowgirl.

Earlier in the Groene investigation, I was dumbfounded by some posters' comments, on this board and others, concerning the police investigation. One post, in particular, for example, said something along the lines of, "LE just doesn't seem to working hard enough. If I were them, I would swab the Groenes' toilet to check for DNA...also, I'm sure they could have known if Dylan and Shasta witnessed the bodies in the house by looking for small footprints in the blood in the living room...". The poster said this as though he/she was thinking of something LE had not already. [QUOTE]

Anna, of course some of the thoughts were "a given" in an investigation and had been done by the DNA teams...........BUT, it also was reported by the LE that Dylan's & Shasta had been paraded around the murder scene (supposedly by footprints????) Now I would call that pretty sloppy work, or very bad reporting by the Sheriff himself.

This proved to be not factual as per Shasta herself !

[AdoraBlue]

I think that a national database or super spreadsheet which breaks out all cases into categories of clues would be a huge help to LE in tieing together information for easy searching. Maybe the FBI already has this, but I wonder if local LE has access to it.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/ncic.htm
The FBI National Crime Information Center (NCIC) 2000 is a nationwide information system dedicated to serving and supporting criminal justice agencies -- local, state, and federal -- in their mission to uphold the law and protect the public. Its predecessor, NCIC, was established in 1967. NCIC 2000 serves criminal justice agencies in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the United States Virgin Islands, and Canada, as well as federal agencies with law enforcement missions. NCIC 2000 provides a major upgrade to those services provided by NCIC, and extends these services down to the patrol car and mobile officer.


http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/codis/program.htm
The FBI Laboratory's Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) blends forensic science and computer technology into an effective tool for solving violent crimes. CODIS enables federal, state, and local crime labs to exchange and compare DNA profiles electronically, thereby linking crimes to each other and to convicted offenders.


Me here: A tracking system is only as good as the viability and completeness of the information entered. I don't pretend to know the particulars of participation status (or lack thereof) of every LE jurisdiction in the USA.


Example: The case of Derrick Todd Lee (one of the Baton Rouge serial killers)

Critics say state, Zachary police missed clues in serial killings
http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/evergreen/sk/031504new_zacharycritic001.shtml

Agencies had pointed task force to Lee earlier
http://www.2theadvocate.com/sk/old_articles/stories/april_may_2003/new_earlier001.shtml

St. Martin warrant out in Breaux Bridge assaults
http://www.2theadvocate.com/sk/old_articles/stories/april_may_2003/new_breaux001.shtml


Me again: Keep in mind that Zachary, LA is 15 miles from Baton Rouge (suburb/bedroom community) in the same parish (county in all other 49 states) as Baton Rouge and that Breaux Bridge is 45 miles from Baton Rouge. LE at all levels can and do wear blinders. If LE's eyes had been wide open in these cases, how many of DTL's known seven victims and four (plus and counting) probable victims could have been saved?

It's entirely possible that a tenacious blogger who set forth a reasonable, well-developed theory regarding the Zachary/Breaux Bridge/Baton Rouge connections could have solved these cases much earlier, saving (at the very, very least) Lee's last known victims, Trineisha Dene Colomb and Carrie Lynn Yoder.

[Cowgirl]

Perhaps if the investigators had not stayed stuck on stupid by reading "profiles of serial killers" which told them to look for a white man, a lot of women would not have been victims. But bloggers are not that new. Were they not wondering about these cases? I was posting on crime message boards during the OJ trial so the message board detectives have been around at least that long. (Heheh, listen to me, I am as bad as those blaming the cops--I am blaming the bloggers/posters for not helping!)

Seems like another problem was educating some of the LE agencies about DNA which is fairly new, but come on, it has been around a while now. I wonder if all arrests are being subject to DNA samples just like fingerprints? If they are not, they need to get on the ball. I am not saying every arrestee has to have the full test because they are expensive, but at least a saliva swab could be taken even if it is just saved and not tested right then. Or does legislation have to be passed to make it that way? Anyone know? I remember Michael Jackson was not DNA sampled at his arrest...

[mysteriew]

Perhaps if the investigators had not stayed stuck on stupid by reading "profiles of serial killers" which told them to look for a white man, a lot of women would not have been victims. But bloggers are not that new. Were they not wondering about these cases? I was posting on crime message boards during the OJ trial so the message board detectives have been around at least that long. (Heheh, listen to me, I am as bad as those blaming the cops--I am blaming the bloggers/posters for not helping!)

Seems like another problem was educating some of the LE agencies about DNA which is fairly new, but come on, it has been around a while now. I wonder if all arrests are being subject to DNA samples just like fingerprints? If they are not, they need to get on the ball. I am not saying every arrestee has to have the full test because they are expensive, but at least a saliva swab could be taken even if it is just saved and not tested right then. Or does legislation have to be passed to make it that way? Anyone know? I remember Michael Jackson was not DNA sampled at his arrest...

If you study other cases you will find that varies from state to state. Some don't do it yet, some only DNA test those with sex crimes, some DNA test all violent crimes, some DNA test all felonies. There has been some interest in DNA testing of all arrestees (like fingerprinting) but due to the cost and the limited number of lab techs certified to run the testing, nothing has come of that.
If LE had tested the DNA at the crime scenes earlier, they would have picked up on the fact that killer was not white.

[AdoraBlue]

Perhaps if the investigators had not stayed stuck on stupid by reading "profiles of serial killers" which told them to look for a white man, a lot of women would not have been victims. But bloggers are not that new. Were they not wondering about these cases? I was posting on crime message boards during the OJ trial so the message board detectives have been around at least that long.
My reference to investigatory/adminstrative mistakes made in these cases was not regarding the "profiling" or "white male" issues that existed in the investigatory phase of the Baton Rouge serial killings, but rather the proximity factor and the lack of communication/information sharing between local agencies. IMO, this was the biggest mistake LE made, overlooking that the Zachary murders that occurred in 1992 and 1998 (with Lee being considered the prime suspect by the Zachary PD) and the Baton Rouge murders that began in 2001 (with Derrick Todd Lee being incarcerated in the interim).

I followed the cases through the The Advocate (http://www.2theadvocate.com/index.shtml (http://www.2theadvocate.com/index.shtml)), South Louisiana TV station news sites and the CourtTV message boards. I am not aware of any detailed, specific blogging about these serial murders until after Lee was apprehended and being tried (see http://geauxlouisiana.com/SerialKillers.html).

Just an aside regarding the evolution of blogs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogging#History

I respectfully disagree with you, Cowgirl, on many of your opinions, however, it often seems that your responses to my posts are condescending and sarcastic, if not overtly rude. If you wish to discuss this further, please feel free to PM me, or not.

[o·vert http://img.tfd.com/hm/pron.gif (javascript:play('O0195600')) (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gif-vûrthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif, http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifvûrthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)
adj. 1. Open and observable; not hidden, concealed, or secret: overt hostility; overt intelligence gathering.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/overt]


All this is MOO, of course.

P.S. I'm dropping this subject on this thread but for anyone who hasn't read (and wishes to) about the crimes of Derrick Todd Lee here are some links:
http://www.2theadvocate.com/sk/sk_bios.shtml
http://www.2theadvocate.com/sk/victim_bios.shtml

[concernedperson]

My reference to investigatory/adminstrative mistakes made in these cases was not regarding the "profiling" or "white male" issues that existed in the investigatory phase of the Baton Rouge serial killings, but rather the proximity factor and the lack of communication/information sharing between local agencies. IMO, this was the biggest mistake LE made, overlooking that the Zachary murders that occurred in 1992 and 1998 (with Lee being considered the prime suspect by the Zachary PD) and the Baton Rouge murders that began in 2001 (with Derrick Todd Lee being incarcerated in the interim).

I followed the cases through the The Advocate (http://www.2theadvocate.com/index.shtml (http://www.2theadvocate.com/index.shtml)), South Louisiana TV station news sites and the CourtTV message boards. I am not aware of any detailed, specific blogging about these serial murders until after Lee was apprehended and being tried (see http://geauxlouisiana.com/SerialKillers.html).

Just an aside regarding the evolution of blogs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogging#History

I respectfully disagree with you, Cowgirl, on many of your opinions, however, it often seems that your responses to my posts are condescending and sarcastic, if not overtly rude. If you wish to discuss this further, please feel free to PM me, or not.

[o·vert http://img.tfd.com/hm/pron.gif (javascript:play('O0195600')) (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gif-vûrthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif, http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifvûrthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)
adj. 1. Open and observable; not hidden, concealed, or secret: overt hostility; overt intelligence gathering.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/overt]


All this is MOO, of course.

P.S. I'm dropping this subject on this thread but for anyone who hasn't read (and wishes to) about the crimes of Derrick Todd Lee here are some links:
http://www.2theadvocate.com/sk/sk_bios.shtml
http://www.2theadvocate.com/sk/victim_bios.shtml

I know all about them and you are right on.I followed this for years and there is more going on IMO.

[Liz]

Steve Huff is on The Big Story right now!

[BloodshotEye]

Liz: Great thread and links for acknowledgment of bloggers like Steve Huff. Thanks for the heads up on Big Story.

Great of Steve Huff to tip his hat toward the message boards and forums.

[Shelayne]

I just find it fascinating to watch all the sleuthing--the meeting of the minds, as it were. I think there are some great exchanging of ideas and theories. I realize that LE knows more about these cases--DUH, they have the files :D--but it certainly is intriguing to speculate and form theories. It is also possible when a case is brand new, that bloggers and/or internet sleuths can aid LE by getting the word out, etc. So it is also entirely conceivable that cold cases could benefit by a new prospective or some fresh eyes looking at it.

That being said: on active/open cases, we can throw out hypotheticals all we want, but there is certainly evidence that is not going to be released to protect the integrity of a future trial. That is why I will reserve total judgment on cases such as the death of JonBenet Ramsey because NOT everything has been released from the case files, and for all we know, some of the leaked info is false info, etc.

If only we could have unlimited access to the files on any case we wanted....but I digress.

Good job bloggers and sleuthers! The internet sleuths may have been a few steps behind LE, but the fact is they arrived at the same conclusions going on less info, and that is totally amazing! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[AdoraBlue]

I think that a national database or super spreadsheet which breaks out all cases into categories of clues would be a huge help to LE in tieing together information for easy searching. Maybe the FBI already has this, but I wonder if local LE has access to it.
:doh: VICAP was what I was trying to think of.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/isd/cirg/ncavc.htm

[mysteriew]

For 2 detectives, 300-plus old cases
Police cut resources for unsolved killings
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050815/NEWS01/508150439/1006/NEWS01

[mysteriew]

Vigilante bloggers and Oak Harbor police are investigating a possible connection to alleged serial killer Joseph Edward Duncan III and the 1997 unsolved murder of 7-year-old Deborah Palmer.
http://www.tacomadailyindex.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=84&cat=23&id=475802&more=

[tired.old.hag]

mysterview, just wanted to say thank you. You post a lot of very helpful information, and I appreciate it.

Take care -
Tired Old Hag

[Liz]

mysterview, just wanted to say thank you. You post a lot of very helpful information, and I appreciate it.

Take care -
Tired Old Hag


I agree, TOH, she certainly does! Thank you, Mysteriew! :)

Here's an interesting quote from the link Mysteriew provided yesterday:

Kara Admundson of Minneapolis, Minn., is a moderator for a blog, or weblog, that has followed the Duncan case. The Cellar is a web-based publication that contains the collaborative writings of a community of bloggers and self-styled detectives. Its Web address is jetd63.blogspot.com.

Admundson claims that the bloggers first made the connection between Duncan and Anthony Martinez, the 10-year-old California boy who was kidnapped and killed, weeks before law enforcement did. She sent a letter to the FBI and spoke to a reporter in Riverside about the possible tie-in earlier this summer.


Reads like it's describing the Cellar's "JoJo Fox", to me! Way to go, JoJo! ETA: After checking The Cellar, I find it was actually ScubaGirl! My bad!

Imagine that! Websleuthing bloggers connecting the dots and supplying LE with the information, aiding in an investigation! It appears that websleuthers can be an asset to LE, contrary to what some other posters here contend. :clap:

[GOLDHEARTNUMB]

WHO CARES IF IT IS JOE OFFICER OR JOE BLOGGER THAT HELPS TO CATCH THESE CREEPS, JUST AS LONG AS SOME JOE BLOW CARES ENOUGH TO TRY TO DO IT? AND IF THEY DO IT TOGETHER BY BRAINSTORMING... YAY! :dance:

[tired.old.hag]

I think it's wonderful when 'just plain people' care enough to take the time to try to help in any bad situation. These people will never get fame or fortune, or probably even a thank you in most cases, and they know that. They're caring people, and we just can't have enough of them in this world.

[BloodshotEye]

I absolutely agree with you guys, and cheer on the bloggers.

Liz, your comment about bloggers "connecting the dots" is so true. Many talking head news reporters, appear to be incredibly lazy. The news staff in the field, doesn't seem intent on pursuing investigative journalism, but simply reporting what others are reporting. You're right, it is a very interesting asset to LE.

[Liz]

Thanks, BloodShotEye! Nice to see someone agree with me, about something, for a change! :p

GoldHeartNumb, I agree with you, too! As long as we can get these creeps off the streets, that's what really matters most!

Yes, Tired.Old.Hag, it is nice to see "regular joes" (as vs serial killer joes, I guess ;)) pitching in and at least trying to help! The real beauty of it, as I've mentioned once before, is that it doesn't cost the taxpayers one red cent! Which is really GRRREAT, imo! :)

[Tom'sGirl]

Thanks, BloodShotEye! Nice to see someone agree with me, about something, for a change! :p

GoldHeartNumb, I agree with you, too! As long as we can get these creeps off the streets, that's what really matters most!

Yes, Tired.Old.Hag, it is nice to see "regular joes" (as vs serial killer joes, I guess ;)) pitching in and at least trying to help! The real beauty of it, as I've mentioned once before, is that it doesn't cost the taxpayers one red cent! Which is really GRRREAT, imo! :)Liz girl, you know how I feel and as post #6 & 9 of this thread says so, BUT it also got some negative response as it did when I mentioned the dots NOT being connected by Riverside LE until they were notified by the FBI who had been getting tips sent to them.

All in all, I won't get into a "Cat Fight" over how some feel.........I'm not in Jr. High anymore :)

[concernedperson]

Thanks, BloodShotEye! Nice to see someone agree with me, about something, for a change! :p

GoldHeartNumb, I agree with you, too! As long as we can get these creeps off the streets, that's what really matters most!

Yes, Tired.Old.Hag, it is nice to see "regular joes" (as vs serial killer joes, I guess ;)) pitching in and at least trying to help! The real beauty of it, as I've mentioned once before, is that it doesn't cost the taxpayers one red cent! Which is really GRRREAT, imo! :)

I am all for everyone pitching in and doing what they can. Who knows what might lead to solving a crime? Afterall, don't we want to see this happen? This is so much better than people silently sitting by and doing nothing but shake their heads....Oh, My,How Horrible!!!! It is about community and caring about each other and going the extra mile to help loved ones or strangers that need help.

For anyone who hasn't been watching the BTK sentencing today....you really need to check it out. So many clues, observations, confessions, how-to's and frankly, some sort of blueprint that can be studied. And, applied.

[Cowgirl]

Okay, you've made a believer out of me, I am convinced that no crime would ever be solved without message boards and bloggers. :rolleyes: Now, if you all would stop taking snide shots at me and stop patting each other on the back, think how many more crimes you could solve!

[SewingDeb]

WHO CARES IF IT IS JOE OFFICER OR JOE BLOGGER THAT HELPS TO CATCH THESE CREEPS, JUST AS LONG AS SOME JOE BLOW CARES ENOUGH TO TRY TO DO IT? AND IF THEY DO IT TOGETHER BY BRAINSTORMING... YAY! :dance:

Exactly my thoughts on the matter. I don't care if the bloggers want to brag about it, either, as long as SOMEONE solves the cases and gives the family answers.

[concernedperson]

Okay, you've made a believer out of me, I am convinced that no crime would ever be solved without message boards and bloggers. Now, if you all would stop taking snide shots at me and stop patting each other on the back, think how many more crimes you could solve!

I didn't do that, I am stating that citizens need to pitch in and not sit silently by. Ya know, the denial group!!! If someone had the knowledge and was willing to try and connect the dots we wouldn't have half as many sexual predators out on the streets or maybe even serials, if they came forward.LE cannot do it all by themselves, the task is overwhelming. Not that they can't connect the dots they need to know what the dots are!

[Tom'sGirl]

I didn't do that, I am stating that citizens need to pitch in and not sit silently by. Ya know, the denial group!!! If someone had the knowledge and was willing to try and connect the dots we wouldn't have half as many sexual predators out on the streets or maybe even serials, if they came forward.LE cannot do it all by themselves, the task is overwhelming. Not that they can't connect the dots they need to know what the dots are!AGREED CP, it costs nothing to follow up on a "hinky" feeling about someone who may be connected in some way to a crime especially when a description becomes available.

It could be a neighbor, acquiantance, work associate or someone you see at the grocery store........

[concernedperson]

AGREED CP, it costs nothing to follow up on a "hinky" feeling about someone who may be connected in some way to a crime especially when a description becomes available.

It could be a neighbor, acquiantance, work associate or someone you see at the grocery store........

I think everyone is on the same page. We just need to be reminded from time to time that we can make a difference.Not a silent majority but a vocal minority, in some instances.

[Liz]

I made a correction to my post (#30) above, and want to be sure it's noted. I don't want to be disseminating false information. :p

And, just to cover my butt, so I don't miss anyone --- Congrats to all the Cellar Dwellers! :clap:
Way to sleuth! :cool:

[joanofarc]

Well, Thank YOU. The thing is, I think blogging owes a lot to messageboards, which have been around since the beginning of the internet. They're cousins, in my opinion. That's why I never hesitate to at least read messageboards, even when I don't have time to post.

BTW -- I'm going to be on Fox again, looks like. Sunday night, Aug. 14, 9 p.m. ET -- The Big Story. This publicity thing is bizarre, sometimes.
Hi misterallgood...:blowkiss: ...I am in awe of you....

[Liz]

This link is to a dated story on bloggers, that appeared in the Spokesman Review, July 16th. I was unable to find it linked in the Media Links thread, so I thought I'd provide it here.

The Cellar and Planet Huff are both mentioned:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:KRFoxuTeSU8J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/tools/story_pf.asp%3FID%3D80480+Duncan+bloggers+logging+ big+hours%0D%0A(%0D%0A&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

:D

[Lauren]

The only way to be a vigilant citizen is to help in any way that you can. If you read blogs and find a criminal. Please do turn them in.

Thanks.:D

[concernedperson]

And along with that I think Steve rocks. Even if his mom pushed him. Sometimes we need a push. Steve, ya know I am one of your biggest fans.And look to you for what I can't articulate.

[mysteriew]

While the FBI has not released a comprehensive list of Duncan's movements, amateur Internet sleuths have poured through his extensive web site and court and other public records, creating their own timeline.

One site called "The Cellar" includes a map that shows all of the places Duncan is known to have visited in the years since his first conviction in 1980.

Those states are Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Missouri, Florida and California. So far, he is known or suspected of crimes in Washington, Idaho, Montana, California and Minnesota.

But the Internet sleuths have gone farther, producing a list of slain or missing children from areas near where Duncan is known to have visited since 2000, even though there is no indication Duncan is tied to those crimes.

That list includes Steven Kraft, a 12-year-old who disappeared near his home in Benton Harbor, Mich., while walking his dogs the evening of Feb. 15, 2001; Shawn Hornbeck, 11, who disappeared near his home in Richwoods, Mo., on Oct. 6, 2002; and Dalton Mesarchik, 7, of Streator, Ill., who disappeared from his front yard on March 26, 2003, and was found the next day, bludgeoned to death with a hammer.

Police in those areas did not return numerous phone messages seeking comment.

Here is a timeline of the life of Joseph Edward Duncan III, based on various legal documents and statements he has made:
http://www.jacksonholestartrib.com/articles/2005/08/27/news/regional/b723753bcaffc67687257069006ad950.txt

[Cowgirl]

Here is a timeline of the life of Joseph Edward Duncan III, based on various legal documents and statements he has made:
http://www.jacksonholestartrib.com/articles/2005/08/27/news/regional/b723753bcaffc67687257069006ad950.txt Jeez, I hope no one is relying on that timeline. It is full of errors. Maybe the author was trying to consolidate events, but most of us with even a casual familiarity with the case know that on July 3, 2004, when Duncan committed the Detroit Lakes offense, he was neither arrested nor bonded. Isn't it surprising how careless these publications are with the facts!

[mysteriew]

Jeez, I hope no one is relying on that timeline. It is full of errors. Maybe the author was trying to consolidate events, but most of us with even a casual familiarity with the case know that on July 3, 2004, when Duncan committed the Detroit Lakes offense, he was neither arrested nor bonded. Isn't it surprising how careless these publications are with the facts!

Yes. Esp. since that is the version by professional journalists. Thank goodness the bloggers do more research and try to be more accurate.

[Liz]

A snippet related to this thread, from the link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050827/ap_on_re_us/duncan_slayings) new websleuther, Cobra2000 provided.

The FBI has not released a list of Duncan's movements during his stints outside prison, but amateur Internet sleuths have pored through his Web site and court and other public records, creating their own timeline.

One site called "The Cellar" includes a map that shows the places Duncan is known to have visited since his first conviction in 1980 — 11 states, most in the West or Midwest. The Web site lists slain or missing children from areas Duncan has visited since 2000, though there is no indication Duncan is tied to those crimes.

[Liz]

Yes. Esp. since that is the version by professional journalists. Thank goodness the bloggers do more research and try to be more accurate.


Exactly! Thanks for pointing that out, Mysteriew!

[Liz]

Snippets below from this link/article:

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/state/12494388.htm

Does Joseph Duncan III have other victims?
August 27, 2005
AP

While the FBI has not released a comprehensive list of Duncan's movements, amateur Internet sleuths have poured through his extensive web site and court and other public records, creating their own timeline.

One site called "The Cellar" includes a map that shows all of the places Duncan is known to have visited in the years since his first conviction in 1980.

Those states are Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Missouri, Florida and California.

But the Internet sleuths have gone farther, producing a list of slain or missing children from areas near where Duncan is known to have visited since 2000, even though there is no indication Duncan is tied to those crimes.

---
On the Web
http://jetd63.blogspot.com/2005/07/joseph-duncan-timeline.html

===============================

So, once again, kudos to bloggers, particularly The Cellar, in this case! This is just great to see them getting recognized for the tremendous help they can be to LE!

[Liz]

http://www.clarkforkchronicle.com/20050901/dylan-20050901.htm

Clark Fork Chronicle
September 1, 2005
by John Q. Murray

>>> snip >>>

When the Chronicle visited the site last weekend, the memorial was already showing the effects of the Montana weather. The teddy bear was soggy from the recent rains, and a copy of a poem "I'm An Angel Now" was already faded and washed out, even though it had been covered in a protective plastic sheath.
Enter the Cellar Dwellers, who quickly offered to help.

>>> snip >>>

The blog grew quickly as computer-savvy volunteers offered to help investigate the many sites created or frequented by Duncan, a computer science student at North Dakota State University in Fargo. Duncan often used a username that incorporated "Jet," an acronym for Joseph Edward the Third. Tracking instances of his usernames "jetd63" and "jazzijet," the Cellar Dwellers were the first to find photographs of Duncan wearing makeup and dressed in women's clothing.

>>> snip >>>

The Cellar Dwellers developed a detailed itinerary based on Duncan's blog entries, websites, and photographs, showing Duncan's movements and placing him at specific locations and specific times. They then searched for children missing from that general area at about the time that Duncan passed through. Although one early match didn't pan out, police are currently investigating several cases of missing children, at least two of which were suggested by the volunteers. Crime writer Steve Huff, who has written extensively about Duncan on his own blog, put together an itinerary that placed Duncan in Minnesota at about the same time that Leanna "Beaner" Warner disappeared. Investigators followed up, though they later ruled out Duncan as a suspect.

>>> snip >>>

Some investigators also appreciate the help from the amateur sleuths, he said.

The Cellar Dwellers recently persuaded Oak Harbor, Wash. law enforcement authorities to reopen the investigation into the 1997 disappearance of Deborah Palmer.

>>> read article in it's entirety at link above

[Liz]

11-04-05
Father takes his son's case to the nation (http://www.havredailynews.com/articles/2005/11/04/local_headlines/sons%20case.txt)

Ellen Thompson
Havre Daily News

When Bill Turcotte of Havre heard in July that authorities had arrested a man for the murder of a Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, couple and child and the abduction of two other children, he immediately thought of his son.

~snip~

Last week, Bill shared his theory of a connection between the two cases with Fox News, and this week met with the FBI in Havre. Next week he'll be interviewed on TV by Geraldo Rivera.

~snip~

Authorities are investigating whether Edward Joseph Duncan III, the suspect in the Idaho abduction and murders, was responsible for unsolved homicides in four other states: Washington, Montana, California and Minnesota. Web bloggers are looking elsewhere too, documenting Duncan's movements and pondering links with unsolved cases in North Dakota and elsewhere.

One such blogger, Steve Huff, saw a connection between Russell Turcotte's murder and Duncan and got in touch will Bill a few months ago. The two were heard together in a phone interview on Fox last Friday, and Turcotte will appear on 'Geraldo At Large' via satellite on Tuesday while Rivera broadcasts live from Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

~snip~

After contacting the FBI office in Salt Lake City last week on Huff's advice, he was finally able to share the information he knew about his son's disappearance and death.

Bill said an FBI agent in Salt Lake City told him to reach the FBI in Coeur d'Alene, which had Bill give a statement to the FBI in Havre on Wednesday to be forwarded to Coeur d'Alene and included in agents' investigation of Duncan.

Bill didn't take his theory to the media intentionally. On Oct. 25, which would have been Russell's 23rd birthday, Bill got a phone call from a Fargo, N.D., radio producer who had been involved in reporting Russell's disappearance and remembered the birthday. Bill told him that he wanted to know if there was a link to Duncan.

A North Dakota newspaper reported Bill's theory, adding the case of Russell Turcotte to those being linked to Duncan by the unofficial Web world.
Bill said an agent at the Coeur d'Alene FBI office said he did not know about Russell's murder until it appeared in the newspaper last week.
~snip~

"It took 3 years to get off first base, and here we are almost to second. Hopefully we'll round it." Bill said.

>>> much, much more at link

I'm hoping and praying this concerned father can get some answers in the murder of his son. And, a tip of my hat to Steve!

[dragonfly]

Liz, thanks for posting this new information about Russell Turcotte. I have also felt this case was a possible connection to JED. It has been a long, long time this family has waited for a good investigation into their boy's death.

I wanted to copy this over to the thread I started on Russell Turcotte, but couldn't find it either. That's two thread I started that are MIA?

[Liz]

Liz, thanks for posting this new information about Russell Turcotte. I have also felt this case was a possible connection to JED. It has been a long, long time this family has waited for a good investigation into their boy's death.

I wanted to copy this over to the thread I started on Russell Turcotte, but couldn't find it either. That's two thread I started that are MIA?


That's what I thought, Dragonfly! But, I couldn't find it either, so I posted it in the blog thread!

ETA: Oh, and you're welcome!

Edited to add: Found it!
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31329

Guess we both overlooked it. :blushing: I am in serious need of some sleep.

[Liz]

I wanted to cross post this, originally posted by Dragonfly, to this thread, so we might be able to keep up with Bloggers crime sleuthing.

November 06, 2005

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_the_groene_murders_and_kidnapping.html

Tower John Doe... The Unsolved Murder of Michael Cameron Rainey

Good job, Fran, who posts on this forum, for bringing this case to Steve's attention! And, here's hoping the family will get some resolution due to both of your efforts!