BTK vs Jonbenet's killer

[sissi]

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/btk/12408190.htm

4 A. Well, the -- part of the items in the box included
5 this doll that was wrapped in bondage-type wrappings
6 with rope. It also depicts a gag in the mouth. And
7 then a rope around the neck attached to the PVC pipe
8 that would a symbol of hanging someone.
9 Q. Now, these bindings on this Barbie doll type doll, are
10 they similar or identical to the bindings that Josie
11 Otero had on her when she was discovered?
12 A. They're very similar to the same bindings that we
13 found on Josie's body at the time.
14 Q. And what I mean by that, is that they're in the
15 identical locations, that's how she was bound?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. On the wrists, around the knees, around the waist,
18 around the ankles?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And gagged and hanging by a rope?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. To a sewer pipe?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Now, Rader actually took this little doll here, took
25 clothes off, and actually took the time to draw in



JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
70


1 pubic hair; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And he told you he drew that in?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And he also drew maybe some eyelashes, spent some time
6 of getting this ready so it would appear to be just
7 like Josie was?
8 A. Yes, he personalized the item.
9 Q. Now, this also found by the task force in the files in
10 his office there in Park City in the compliance
11 officer -- office that he had.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this here is what?
14 A. This is notes about the occurrences that occurred
15 during his murder of the Otero family.
16 Q. And, again, he took these notes and then prepared the
17 story that he wanted to tell about killing the Otero
18 family?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Now, again, also in his notes there -- in his various
21 writings, because he had a lot of writings, did he
22 not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in there he had what was the determined an AFLV.
25 He liked little acronyms, didn't he?



JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
71


1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. He liked to shorten things up?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Like he used -- what was SBT, if you can recall?
5 A. Sparky Big Time. Sparky, being an erection.
6 Q. Now, after this -- it's AFLV, it said Afterlife
7 Concept of Victim. What was this all about in his
8 writings?

[Nehemiah]

In light of the BTK killer, maybe SBTC stands for:
Strangle Bind Torture Club (as in hit in the head)

I haven't read much about Rader, but where was he in '96?

[sissi]

Yep, where was he? Are there really others of the same mind?

6 Q. Now, did you specifically ask Rader why he took Josie
7 to the basement?
8 A. We asked -- during the course of his explanation of
9 this particular crime scene -- why he chose the
10 basement.
11 Q. And there is a quote behind you from Rader about his
12 fascination with bondage in a basement; is that
13 correct?

[Nehemiah]

I'm sure someone will blow in here and throw this line of thinking out the window, but for now, I can see many similarities.

Interesting how Rader explains about the difficulty in strangling someone to death--how that person appears dead and then "comes back". Makes me wonder if JB were strangled, "came back", frustrated perp so much that he hit her to kill her. That would also line up with Dr. Spitz' statement about her still being alive while hit on the head; possibly she was strangled, still alive, and clubbed.

[sissi]

Nehemiah, I'm sure you are right, someone will "blow this off" as a waste of time, however, it reminded me of Archuleta's statement, which I just searched for on google.

It was December 6, 1996, during the Parade of Lights in Boulder.

JonBenet was sitting up high on the back seat of a Christmas-red open BMW convertible with two other pageant contestants, waving to the crowd while the song Jingle Bell Rock was played from the car.

A plastic sign on the side of the convertible identified her by name and revealed that she was a child beauty queen. Family friend Pam Archuleta held JonBenet's ankle to keep her from falling.

As they went past one of the town's leading banks, a strange man walked from the crowd toward the BMW. Archuleta says he looked "creepy" and had "a face full of anger and hatred" that she will never forget. She had the impression that the man had seen JonBenet before and recognized her.

Well-dressed in a tweed jacket and jeans, the man was in his 40's, tall and thin with graying hair. He stared at JonBenet and walked to within two feet of the car.

For Archuleta, the staring man's behavior marred what until then had seemed an innocent Christmas event that could have taken place in any town in America.

(perhaps not tall and thin, but we do know accounts vary when describing perps "even" by the victims of recent crimes)

[sissi]

His letter concerning Otero murders;


I write this letter to you for the sake of the tax payer as well as your
time. Those three dude you have in custody are just talking to get pub-
licity for the Otero murders, They know nothing at all. I did it by
myself and no ones help. There has been no talk either. Lets put it straight........
Joe:
Position: Southwest bedroom, feet tie to the bed. Head pointed in a
southerly direction.
Bondage: Window blind cord.
Garrote: Blind cord, brown belt.
Death: The old bag trick and strangulation with clothes line rope.
Clothed: White sweat shirt, green pants.
Comments: He threw up at one time. Had rib injury from wreck few week
before. Laying on coat.
Julie:
Position: Laying on her back crosswise on the bed pointed in southwest-
ern direction. Face cover with a pillow.
Bondage: Blind cord.
Garrote: Clothes line cord tie in a clove-hitch.


my comment:
Garrote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nehemiah]

Have you read anywhere yet where Rader was in '96?

Good find about the "garrote". Very interesting.

Rader said that he would determine his victim according to his own specifications and then stalk her in order to discover her habits, etc... Is that behavior indicative of all serial killers? I would think so. But it looks like Rader would have talked by now if he had been responsible for something as sallacious as the JBR murder.

[luvbeaches]

Rader would have talked if he was involved with killing JonBenet. I'm a believer in what Steve Thomas wrote.

[sissi]

Considering what we "know", all of the parallels could reaffirm the belief that Jonbenet's perp indeed had more than a normal interest in serial killers, with btk being only another source he "emulated" to carry out this crime.

Would BTK admit to killing a child? No! He referred to Josephine, age 11, as a young woman, he was unwilling to admit he was ,indeed, a pedophile.
Would he admit to any murders where a death penalty would be in place, no again, he's far too self protective to do that. JMO

He claims he wasn't "strong enough" physically to carry out murders any longer. This could indicate perhaps a shift in victims, the very old or the very young? Kansas needs to look closely at unsolved child murders, however, I will concede that Jonbenet's murder requires a bit of imagination to consider as one of his, I believe ,as well, nothing is impossible. If someone can place a boyscout jamboree, in either Charlevoix or Boulder , a Naval base graduation, or one of the Rader kids attending a school or anything "close" in 1996, it would be interesting.

[capps]

Also,how would Rader know all the personal information in the ransom note? To know that,he would have had to be around the Ramsey's themselves,or in their home for a period of time.And if he was, I think the Ramsey's would have recognized him from seeing him on tv.

[sissi]

According to Rader, he spent a good deal of time stalking his prey, and had burglarized homes of potential victims to gather info about them and their habits. Again, it would be a stretch, likely the perp that murdered Jonbenet was nothing more than a student of crime ,including btk's. To add to my "list" today, I found his use of southwestern bell telephone company, another possible sbtc, interesting.

[Maybe So]

If someone told me that Dennis Rader was in Boulder Colorado in December 1996 the I would certainly suspect him in the death of JBR.

After hearing how he stalked victims, hid in their houses waiting for them, enjoyed torture and strangulation of his victims....liked to write little clues and poems. Etc etc.

I could see him writing a long taunting ransom note like that.

Her manner of death is right up his alley, the garrotte, the sexual assault etc

He used the initials BTK and he also once posed as a phone repairman for SBC not a far stretch to get to SBTC from combining the two.

However I think he would have claimed responsibility for it and taunted police about it...and I doubt he was that far from home on Christmas without his family knowing about it...though you never know.

Perhaps they should compare his DNA...just in case....

[Maybe So]

Though I doubt Rader is connected at all to JBR...I think his case illustrates that a similar type of sicko/monster/intruder could have pulled off her murder and delighted in her parents being suspected and still appeared like the normal guy next door to everyone....never falling under suspicion at all.

[sissi]

Though I doubt Rader is connected at all to JBR...I think his case illustrates that a similar type of sicko/monster/intruder could have pulled off her murder and delighted in her parents being suspected and still appeared like the normal guy next door to everyone....never falling under suspicion at all.

Sure does!!!

So many coincidences...dog catcher/stray dog..gee that is a coincidence, certainly not something a serial wannabe would have known! However, yes, I think this monster BTK is unfortunately not one of a kind.

[Nehemiah]

He used the initials BTK and he also once posed as a phone repairman for SBC not a far stretch to get to SBTC from combining the two....

To add to my "list" today, I found his use of southwestern bell telephone company, another possible sbtc, interesting.

I find that very intriguing. When Lighthouse posted here regularly, and in cryptic form much of the time, he spoke of a connection between Southwestern Bell Telephone Company and the JBR murder. Of course, he claimed personal knowledge of this situation and of the man who worked for the phone company.

He and Camper posted back and forth; she may remember or have saved some of those posts.

[CCKP]

Would they try to match his DNA to the DNA which has been unidentified on JBR? Or not becuase it is in different jurisdictions?

[Nehemiah]

Would they try to match his DNA to the DNA which has been unidentified on JBR? Or not becuase it is in different jurisdictions?

Perhaps, if there were any indication that he was in the area in '96.

[lisafremont]

In light of the BTK killer, maybe SBTC stands for:
Strangle Bind Torture Club (as in hit in the head)

I haven't read much about Rader, but where was he in '96?

Why would Patsy write a "ransom letter" to cover up for Dennis Rader??

[sissi]

Why would Patsy write a "ransom letter" to cover up for Dennis Rader??

There is no doubt, given the nature of the ransom note, that the killer was a student of crimes, both real , in books , and on the screen. This part of the profile has never fit Patsy, no one has ever identified her as ,knowing about "police tactics and countermeasures",or, having used phrases from ultra-violent crime materials. I suggested a while back that we should visit the archives of the serial killer reading room, to get an idea of how the minds of not only serials, but the wannabes work. The idea was nixed and the link erased. This crime was committed by a dark mind, not by a middle aged mommy. JMO

[concernedperson]

BTK didn't do this crime no matter how convenient it would be.

[Holdontoyourhat]

There is no doubt, given the nature of the ransom note, that the killer was a student of crimes, both real , in books , and on the screen. This part of the profile has never fit Patsy, no one has ever identified her as ,knowing about "police tactics and countermeasures",or, having used phrases from ultra-violent crime materials. I suggested a while back that we should visit the archives of the serial killer reading room, to get an idea of how the minds of not only serials, but the wannabes work. The idea was nixed and the link erased. This crime was committed by a dark mind, not by a middle aged mommy. JMO
YGTR (you got that right)

[Becba]

I'm sure someone will blow in here and throw this line of thinking out the window, but for now, I can see many similarities.

Interesting how Rader explains about the difficulty in strangling someone to death--how that person appears dead and then "comes back". Makes me wonder if JB were strangled, "came back", frustrated perp so much that he hit her to kill her. That would also line up with Dr. Spitz' statement about her still being alive while hit on the head; possibly she was strangled, still alive, and clubbed.
lol, I am not attempting to blow it ot the window. I did want to say Rader left sperm all over the place and seemed to move onto killing women not little girls.

BUT, I did notice also at the similarities. The tying up seems like some kind of fetish like Rader had. Doubt if that is real common to have that kind of murder seen.
Also Rader could have updated his m.o. to use a stun gun. We know he liked to lay in wait. So that fits also.
I'd like to know where he was during the murder.

[luvbeaches]

BTK didn't do this crime no matter how convenient it would be.

I'm surprised the R's haven't tried to point the finger at BTK.

[Charlie]

Considering the speculative amount of murders BTK has been linked to dont u think they would have run his DNA through CODIS to see what might turn up? Therefore no link would have been made to JBRs DNA...most RDI theorists know the poor vailidity of JBRs DNA samples anyways...but just a thought.

As Dr. Lee stated this isnt a DNA case.

[sissi]

That is an interesting question, surely they had his dna from crimescenes, however, they didn't obtain a sample from him during the days planning his arrest. How does this work? Would they be putting his "in" now, or would it have been "in" as an "unknown perp" .

[Zman]

While I applaud the attempt to find the killer and the some of the obvious similarities presented, alas BTK just doesn't fit. He's to fond of bragging about his crimes and while he likes his little hints and letters none of his crimes ever came close to the personal assualt that the JBR murder was. Besides I would think that someone else in the house if not everyone would have been killed.

He sure wasn't in the habit of feeding pineapple to his victims.

[Nehemiah]

He sure wasn't in the habit of feeding pineapple to his victims.

The pineapple is one of the reasons that the intruder theory is so unbelievable for many people.

[UKGuy]

The pineapple is one of the reasons that the intruder theory is so unbelievable for many people.
Not to mention her pony tails, hair styling, body scrub, and fashion makeover including her barbie nightgown and oversized underwear.

What a thoughtful intruder that would be!

[sissi]

No BTK didn't feed anyone pineapple, but he did stop torturing a victim long enough to get her a glass of water and give her children toys to play with while they were locked in a bathroom. A similar kind of guy...maybe? BTK stalked his victims, I have always believed Jonbenet's killer fantasized and stalked her for a time before the murder. If a similar kind of guy we can forget about bringing him to justice anytime "soon".

[luvbeaches]

Not to mention her pony tails, hair styling, body scrub, and fashion makeover including her barbie nightgown and oversized underwear.

What a thoughtful intruder that would be!

No kidding!

[sissi]

Not to mention her pony tails, hair styling, body scrub, and fashion makeover including her barbie nightgown and oversized underwear.

What a thoughtful intruder that would be!

Weren't her panties urine stained to match the stains in her longjohns?
I would have to see a pic of her at the White's to comment on the pony tails.
Fashion makeover?

[Zman]

Not to mention her pony tails, hair styling, body scrub, and fashion makeover including her barbie nightgown and oversized underwear.

What a thoughtful intruder that would be!
Well that may suggest it's not BTK but I dont see how any of this goes along with RDI.

We don't know what her hair looked like when she went to bed or maybe this nutbag just put her hair the way he/she liked it. A killer wiping down a body is not odd even for a stranger. Fashion Makeover? See nutbag comment. The oversized underwear could have been on all night.

This person was trying to implement that JBR was being molested by JR. I don't think a R covering up this crime would do that.

[sissi]

I really can't imagine that BTK wandered into Boulder at Christmastime, however, none of the info we are stating dismisses him. He took a victim out of her house, to do just what we are saying couldn't have been done ,he took her to a church, covered the windows in black plastic, dressed ,posed and photographed her before disposing of her body. He took some of her clothing, as well, to use as a "personal" costume for photographing himself.

[Nehemiah]

Well that may suggest it's not BTK but I dont see how any of this goes along with RDI.

We don't know what her hair looked like when she went to bed or maybe this nutbag just put her hair the way he/she liked it. A killer wiping down a body is not odd even for a stranger. Fashion Makeover? See nutbag comment. The oversized underwear could have been on all night.

This person was trying to implement that JBR was being molested by JR. I don't think a R covering up this crime would do that.

I think a lot of people have a difficult time imagining that an intruder came into the house and did all this stuff...while the Ramseys were there. It had to have taken quite a long time to have felt so comfortable in a house on Christmas Night. He was down in the basement, and even took the time in that windowless room, where there was only one door, and if anyone at all had come down there, he would have been hemmed inside with no way of escape. That's why so many think the RDI theory is so believable.

[sissi]

He (intruder) would likely have killed any Ramsey, perhaps the entire family if they got in the way of his "taking" Jonbenet. Much like the cases of Josephine for BTK, and the little girl for Duncan, no one could have stopped the killer . While they feel guilt for not waking to save her, they may have saved their son and themselves by sleeping through this abduction/murder.

[Zman]

I think a lot of people have a difficult time imagining that an intruder came into the house and did all this stuff...while the Ramseys were there. It had to have taken quite a long time to have felt so comfortable in a house on Christmas Night. He was down in the basement, and even took the time in that windowless room, where there was only one door, and if anyone at all had come down there, he would have been hemmed inside with no way of escape. That's why so many think the RDI theory is so believable.
Not if the intruder was already fimiliar with the home. Intruder does not have to mean stranger.

The room is only where she was found. It does not mean thats where all the events took place.

And I could say that "all this stuff" is the reason the RDI theory is so unbelievable.