K.J.L.B and S.B.T.C theory by Bluecrab

[Rupert]

I give credit to Bluecrab for his sharp eyes on this one. This theory really strikes a deep chord with me. It has been said by many on various forums that the periods in S.B.T.C could be separators. The Case of the Missing Period after C suggests that this might be the reason.

The last post by the APAC at UofC in April 1997 was by "K.J.L.B Groups". Bluecrab wondered if the period separated the names of countries (Korea, Bhuttan, Laos,...). Likewise BC wondered if S.B.T.C was a group also. After all, "We are a group of ..." was a rather overdone, strange introduction.

I've lost the thread on BC's full theory, but here is the starter and perhaps BC can help us out further:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4896&page=1&pp=25

I've got a strong feeling about this one. The university age group fits with someone who watched and was immersed in kidnap crime movies.

[Nehemiah]

Wondering if there's any way to merge this theory and Sissi's theory that involves Churchill? That would be an interesting combination, and maybe possible.

[BlueCrab]

I give credit to Bluecrab for his sharp eyes on this one. This theory really strikes a deep chord with me. It has been said by many on various forums that the periods in S.B.T.C could be separators. The Case of the Missing Period after C suggests that this might be the reason.

The last post by the APAC at UofC in April 1997 was by "K.J.L.B Groups". Bluecrab wondered if the period separated the names of countries (Korea, Bhuttan, Laos,...). Likewise BC wondered if S.B.T.C was a group also. After all, "We are a group of ..." was a rather overdone, strange introduction.

I've lost the thread on BC's full theory, but here is the starter and perhaps BC can help us out further:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4896&page=1&pp=25 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4896&pag=1&pp=25)

I've got a strong feeling about this one. The university age group fits with someone who watched and was immersed in kidnap crime movies.




Rupert,

I too have a strong feeling that APAC members could be involved somehow in the killing of JonBenet. APAC at Boulder, a pro-active liberal political group, suspiciously shut down immediately following the murder. One of its 29 members, 21-year-old NI, was a close friend of the Ramseys and regularly drove Burke and JonBenet to school. NI, in his last year at CU, lived at the Stine's house and was Doug's caregiver. He wasn't even known to the cops until the Atlanta interviews in 2000, and I doubt if APAC and NI have been properly investigated and interviewed to this day.

BlueCrab

[Rupert]

Rupert,

I too have a strong feeling that APAC members could be involved somehow in the killing of JonBenet. APAC at Boulder, a pro-active liberal political group, suspiciously shut down immediately following the murder. One of its 29 members, 21-year-old NI, was a close friend of the Ramseys and regularly drove Burke and JonBenet to school. NI, in his last year at CU, lived at the Stine's house and was Doug's caregiver. He wasn't even known to the cops until the Atlanta interviews in 2000, and I doubt if APAC and NI have been properly investigated and interviewed to this day.

BlueCrab
Bluecrab,
If it wasn't RDI, then I think the perp did it for a premeditated poltical reason and had the inside on the R's. I think the RN was a message. "We do respect your bussiness (kissiness) but not the country (Little Miss America) that it serves." In other words, we know you love your daughter but we have a message and as a symbol she is unfortunately chosen. Since it was a message, then it was written in code (so as to hide their identity S.B.T.C from most of us), just like "K.J.L.B Groups" is no doubt a code too. Coincidence? - this one is too strong.

The perp might have been hyped up on drugs while watching Nick of Time that night and couldn't help but infuse his favorite hobby, watching the movies. The perp is vengeful and wants to gain control and thus takes pleasure instructing John just the way that the father was in Nick of Time. The thought made me wonder if the R's received some other instructions which they could not tell about. After all, there were some missing sheets. Perhaps that's why they became so defensive. Speculation and I know you have your own ideas.

I don't think enough thinking has been done yet on this case and the BPD should definitely check this out.

[BlueCrab]

Bluecrab,
If it wasn't RDI, then I think the perp did it for a premeditated poltical reason and had the inside on the R's. I think the RN was a message. "We do respect your bussiness (kissiness) but not the country (Little Miss America) that it serves." In other words, we know you love your daughter but we have a message and as a symbol she is unfortunately chosen. Since it was a message, then it was written in code (so as to hide their identity S.B.T.C from most of us), just like "K.J.L.B Groups" is no doubt a code too. Coincidence? - this one is too strong.

The perp might have been hyped up on drugs while watching Nick of Time that night and couldn't help but infuse his favorite hobby, watching the movies. The perp is vengeful and wants to gain control and thus takes pleasure instructing John just the way that the father was in Nick of Time. The thought made me wonder if the R's received some other instructions which they could not tell about. After all, there were some missing sheets. Perhaps that's why they became so defensive. Speculation and I know you have your own ideas.

I don't think enough thinking has been done yet on this case and the BPD should definitely check this out.



Rupert,

I agree that S.B.T.C on the ransom note and K.J.L.B on APAC's abandoned website should be considered more than just a mere coincidence. Investigators who write off stuff like that as a coincidence are either wearing blinders or are part of the obvious coverup that has been playing out for nine years now.

The two identically phrased sets of initials as sign-offs are linked to JonBenet's murder by NI's close personal association with JonBenet and his membership in APAC.

JonBenet, a privileged and beautiful white female from a conservative family and a symbol of what America stands for, versus APAC, a proactive liberal political group whose members seek justice for perceived unsolved crimes and discrimination against Asian-American women, was not a good mix.

However, in this theory a Ramsey must also be included as a suspect along with an APAC member because of the intense Ramsey coverup of the crime. In this theory an APAC member had to have been the fifth person in the house that night, probably let in by BR. A preteen boy could have accompanied the APAC member into the house. The missing crimescene evidence walked out of the house with them in the middle of the night, most likely around 3:00 AM.

BlueCrab

[Rupert]

Bluecrab,
Check your private email.

[UKGuy]

Well after amusing myself with variations on the APAC's members initials being paired, then Kanji abbreviations, then pinyin variations, closest was a dried food company situated in china.

Applying some common sense, I arrived at an interpretation of "K.J.L.B Groups" which may constitute the Korean Japanese Laotian and Burmese ethnic groupings.


I have another that goes Kill Johni L Benet, and SBTC is a public reply Strangled Bound Tortured Corpsed, but that seems to belong in the Stephen King realm, or from a forthcoming BTK true crime thriller.

[Becba]

Maybe the writer wanted to seem like they were from the Strangle Bind Torture Club, taking the idea from BTK which was from Bind Torture Kill.

Everything else in the note seems to be copy catting.

[txsvicki]

Well after amusing myself with variations on the APAC's members initials being paired, then Kanji abbreviations, then pinyin variations, closest was a dried food company situated in china.

Applying some common sense, I arrived at an interpretation of "K.J.L.B Groups" which may constitute the Korean Japanese Laotian and Burmese ethnic groupings.


I have another that goes Kill Johni L Benet, and SBTC is a public reply Strangled Bound Tortured Corpsed, but that seems to belong in the Stephen King realm, or from a forthcoming BTK true crime thriller.

I had wondered if someone might be thinking of btk and quickly thought of stun bind torture club since that is what looks to be what happened to Jonbenet.

[Becba]

I had wondered if someone might be thinking of btk and quickly thought of stun bind torture club since that is what looks to be what happened to Jonbenet.
The C is likely for club because the RN used "we" and "men". Not that it was actually more than one person but the writer wanted to portray it that way.
BTK was a notorious uncaught killer at the time and many had knowledge of his signature.
She was bound and tortured. S could be strangle or stun. IMO The initials were made up so only the writer knows what was really intended. And since there was no kidnapping or ransome I'd say there was no real Club.
The initials being so close to what happened to JonBenet is not a coincidence. I think they stand for Strangle Bind Torture Club or Stun Bind Torture Club. The reason it wasn't STBK is because they wanted to allude to a group not a single killer.

[txsvicki]

The C is likely for club because the RN used "we" and "men". Not that it was actually more than one person but the writer wanted to portray it that way.
BTK was a notorious uncaught killer at the time and many had knowledge of his signature.
She was bound and tortured. S could be strangle or stun. IMO The initials were made up so only the writer knows what was really intended. And since there was no kidnapping or ransome I'd say there was no real Club.
The initials being so close to what happened to JonBenet is not a coincidence. I think they stand for Strangle Bind Torture Club or Stun Bind Torture Club. The reason it wasn't STBK is because they wanted to allude to a group not a single killer.

Yes, I see what you mean. Back when I had thought of club, I was thinking the hitting of the head with a club. That's probably a stretch but couldn't help but wonder.

[UKGuy]

I had wondered if someone might be thinking of btk and quickly thought of stun bind torture club since that is what looks to be what happened to Jonbenet.


Yes, more than likely, the RN seems to be a pastiche of crime genres. As if the authors intention was to be deliberately ambiguous to avoid being linked by some prior interest or knowledge.

[BlueCrab]

We can add S.J.N.I to the group abbreviations that are without a period following the last letter. Websleuther Rupert uncovered this one on the campus at Colorado University, Boulder. S.J.N.I stands for "Students for Justice in Northern Ireland".

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/SJNI/

Moreover, there is what could be an important link between "S.J.N.I" and APAC's "K.J.L.B" (in addition to the missing period following the last letter in each case):

CURRENT CO-CHAIR TOM SHELLEY OF S.J.N.I WAS ALSO ONE OF THE 29 MEMBERS OF THE "ASIAN PACIFIC AMERICAN COALITION" (APAC) IN 1996. APAC disbanded immediately following the murder of JonBenet. There was a direct connection between the Ramsey family and APAC by way of a family friend who lived at the Stine's house and who was also a member of APAC.

Tom Shelley has been active in behalf of liberal causes on Colorado University's Boulder campus for many years. Besides being an APAC member in 1996, he is currently active in CU's "Young Democratic Socialists and Liberals Against War".

For instance, in 2001 Shelley, representing the "Queer Labor Rights Coalition", was a guest speaker at the Boulder Campus Staff Council. Shelley was lobbying to gain domestic partner benefits (insurance, etc.) for students. And in 2003 Tom was on the podium with Boulder mayor Will Toor at a CU anti-war rally.

Could a missing period help solve the JonBenet Ramsey murder? Maybe.

BlueCrab

[Nehemiah]

Wow, great sleuthing. You just never know...

[Rupert]

Wow, great sleuthing. You just never know...
Thanks, Nehemiah. Bluecrab is brave.

Anyone:

1. Does anyone have a photo of the students in Boulder with the sign "Stop Bombing Third world Countries". I'm sure I saw it somewhere on Jamesons or here. It had the vertical STBC highlighted.

2. What might "Stop Bombing Third world Countries" have to do with bound up Barbie dolls? I considered like many others "Sweatshop Barbie".

[cami]

Maybe the writer wanted to seem like they were from the Strangle Bind Torture Club, taking the idea from BTK which was from Bind Torture Kill.

Everything else in the note seems to be copy catting.

Or maybe it's Saved By The Cross.

[Nuisanceposter]

I still think the note was written by Patsy and she was covering up for one of the Ramseys, with nothing to do with any club or cult or anything involving some pedophilia circle. If I had to guess what S.B.T.C stood for, I'd guess Saved By The Cross or some other religious reference. She's a religious freak. But I don't think she sees JonBenet's death as a sacrifice...that would imply premeditation, wouldn't it? I don't think JB's death was intentional. Just my opinion.

[Rupert]

How bout this?
The perp was no dummy. The perp knew how to use periods as separators. As in Nick of Time 1:18, the perp in his own fantasy was trying to force JR to do something. But the perp used JonBenet as a statement and there was to be no hope.

"follow our instructions to the letter"
S.B.T.C should be the instructions.
"We do respect your bussiness (kissiness) but not the country (Little Miss America) that it serves." In otherwords, we know you love your daughter but we have a message and as a symbol she is unfortunately chosen. Barbie doll represents America and she is bound up.

Country is replaced with child.

"Stop Bombing Third world Countries" becomes:
"Stop Bombing Third world Children"

The perp knew that JR could not stop the bombings. JR could not help but deviate from the instructions to S.B.T.C
There was no saving JonBenet.

Somebody into statistics and planning (you stand a 100 percent chance, If... Risk Planning, don't underestimate us). Somebody educated.

[Becba]

It is hard for me to believe the name is important because I beleive PR wrote the note. Whatever it stands for was made up.

I think if a small foreign faction were to manage to get away with murder this easily, they would have popped up again. Yet nobody's ever heard of them.

If an intruder really did write the note, he did not kidnap her, so why even leave a note?

[BlueCrab]

Please set aside Patsy's involvement just for the timebeing.

The missing period and Students for Justice in Northern Ireland (S.J.N.I) and Tom Shelley's possible tie-in to the Ramsey case should be the topic.

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/SJNI/

For instance, could we have some thoughts about those four initials resembling the format (no punctuation mark after the last letter) also used at APAC's website and on the Ramsey ransom note?

Also, the hand printed S.J.N.I writing sure looks familiar. IMO it should be professionally analyzed and compared to the printing in the ransom note.

BlueCrab

[Rupert]

Please set aside Patsy's involvement just for the timebeing.

The missing period and Students for Justice in Northern Ireland (S.J.N.I) and Tom Shelley's possible tie-in to the Ramsey case should be the topic.

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/SJNI/

For instance, could we have some thoughts about those four initials resembling the format (no punctuation mark after the last letter) also used at APAC's website and on the Ramsey ransom note?

Also, the hand printed S.J.N.I writing sure looks familiar. IMO it should be professionally analyzed and compared to the printing in the ransom note.

BlueCrab
Also note: I.N.A.C

[Nehemiah]

Also, the hand printed S.J.N.I writing sure looks familiar. IMO it should be professionally analyzed and compared to the printing in the ransom note.BlueCrab

I agree.

[BlueCrab]

Also note: I.N.A.C


Good eye Rupert. That one was hard to see (it's in the links section). I.N.A.C stands for Irish Northern Aid, but it's not clear what the C stands for.

BlueCrab

[Rupert]

Good eye Rupert. That one was hard to see (it's in the links section). I.N.A.C stands for Irish Northern Aid, but it's not clear what the C stands for.

BlueCrab
I searched and concluded that C = Campaign

[Voice of Reason]

i like the creativity in the sleuthing on this one, but i think this connection is insignificant, if it even exists at all. their constitution wasn't ratified until 1999. i'd be surprised if this campus group even existed in 1996.

[Rupert]

i like the creativity in the sleuthing on this one, but i think this connection is insignificant, if it even exists at all. their constitution wasn't ratified until 1999. i'd be surprised if this campus group even existed in 1996.
Read the thread again. TS was also in A.P.A.C 1996 along with NI who knew the Rams. NI drove JonBenet to school. Could be someone asked NI about JR and his parent company as well as his Little Miss America daughter and his billion dollars sells.

Funny those 4 letter acronyms. They're all just 4 letters.

[sandraladeda]

I mena no disrespect, but I find that, often in the JBR cae, people hear hoofbeats, and assume it must be a herd of Zebras.

The obvious is the most likely.

The Ramsey family - Definitely Patsy, maybe John, less likely Burke - knows something, has hidden something, has not fully cooperated, I believe we can agree - and as a result, justice has not been served.

IMO

[BlueCrab]

Read the thread again. TS was also in A.P.A.C 1996 along with NI who knew the Rams. NI drove JonBenet to school. Could be someone asked NI about JR and his parent company as well as his Little Miss America daughter and his billion dollars sells.

Funny those 4 letter acronyms. They're all just 4 letters.


Rupert,

I think VOR was referring to the I.N.A.C when he said their constitution wasn't ratified until 1999. However, that wouldn't make any difference anyway. Someone at CU has been leaving their signature on various websites (two that we know of) that consists of four capital letters with periods after each letter except for the last letter -- the same format the killer of JonBenet used in 1996 as a signature in the ransom note.

BlueCrab

[BlueCrab]

The obvious is the most likely.
IMO


sandraladeda,

We are following the most likely. I don't believe in coincidences unless they are thoroughly checked out.

BlueCrab

[Nehemiah]

I spent some time going through Lockheed Martin contracts from '96, eyeing those awarded to Ireland. Possibly a connection to that...

[BlueCrab]

I need a little help here; I'm semi-computer illiterate and would like to find the full name of the author of Term Paper #56221. Here's all I know:

Term Paper #56221
"The JonBenet Ramsey Murder Case, 2005"
Shelley 1998
11,245 words, 45 pages
MLA $200.95

I would be interested in knowing what Shelley's first name is. Thanks.

BlueCrab

[Rupert]

Nehemiah,
Good sleuthing too. We are now a Group: B.C.R.N (just kidding).

I will keep to acronyms as Websleuths requires and I totally agree. Ironically we are doing exactly the same thing the perp did - how bout that!

LM was a well known defence contractor and there was some thought that S.B.T.C might have meant "Stop Bombing Third world Countries". I'll give Lou Smit credit on this one:

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html
"The letter is signed using the acronym SBTC. Police wondered if that was a reference to Subic Bay, a training center where John Ramsey spent time during his naval career, though no one in the Navy apparently used that acronym to describe the place. Smit doesn't know what the acronym means but is aware of other places where its use has appeared, including a sign at a protest demonstration with SBTC spelled out vertically. Horizontally, it reads: Stop/Bombing/Third world/Countries."

I have seen the photo of the sign on the web somewhere, maybe through a forum. I have been looking for it again, but can't seem to find it. It clearly spelled SBTC vertically. I recall it was a photo of students protesting in Boulder. There was some thought that CW shared the same political thoughts as the protesters. CW also knew Susannah Chase who was murdered brutally one year later at Christmas. Maybe CW frequented the same places (pizza place and APAC) that the perp did and the perp became knowledgeable about JonBenet and Susannah Chase.

Here's my speculation (and I admit it is speculative, however logical). "Sweatshop Barbie" and "Stop Bombing Third world Countries" was big on the activist list then. Maybe someone we have never heard about was related or on the fringes of activist students and was triggered by the hypocracy of Barbie Dolls for Christmas, which were made in sweatshops in third world countries by children who were all being bombed at the same time. Maybe that coupled with a personal issue fired the perp up to target a Barbie Doll (blond) look alike.

[Rupert]

I mena no disrespect, but I find that, often in the JBR cae, people hear hoofbeats, and assume it must be a herd of Zebras.

The obvious is the most likely.

The Ramsey family - Definitely Patsy, maybe John, less likely Burke - knows something, has hidden something, has not fully cooperated, I believe we can agree - and as a result, justice has not been served.

IMO
Sandraladeda,
Things can be interpreted in different ways. If you are immediately apprised that statistically you are a good suspect right off the bat, then you become defensive. Not only that, but your defensive actions are now interpreted by police to be suspicious. It carries on and can also become a herd of Zebras.

I don't know who did it. One should always clearly look for the facts and get the facts right. I make mistakes and am prepared to correct. We are looking for connections and there seems to be a high correlation on this one (the case of the missing period and politics).

I keep an open mind, but look for the coincidences. You never know, all this foreign faction/kidnap crime movie stuff could have been communicated over a phone.

I am also aware of my gullibility. I make mistakes and am prepared to correct, lest it turn into a herd of white elephants. Cheers.

[UKGuy]

I need a little help here; I'm semi-computer illiterate and would like to find the full name of the author of Term Paper #56221. Here's all I know:

Term Paper #56221
"The JonBenet Ramsey Murder Case, 2005"
Shelley 1998
11,245 words, 45 pages
MLA $200.95

I would be interested in knowing what Shelley's first name is. Thanks.

BlueCrab

mmm well I could speculate you are looking for someone literate, possibly with a university education, so would Thomas Shelley, be a good guess?

[BlueCrab]

mmm well I could speculate you are looking for someone literate, possibly with a university education, so would Thomas Shelley, be a good guess?


UKGuy,

Yes, that's who I'm guessing may be the author of the term paper, but I can't verify it. All I could come up with is the name Shelley, but no first name.

BlueCrab

[Rupert]

I think we have been concentrating on the student only track of connections: TS knows NI through APAC and NI knows the Rams. But NI really came to know the Rams through SS.

Could it be that that SS discussed with NI his involvement with APAC and what it was? SS was working at the university (at management level) and must have been aware of APAC through NI. Maybe in discussions with NI, SS became aware of other 4 letter acronyms of APAC or just the idea of how the periods are used as separators. Are there other 4 letter acronyms of APAC prior to 1997? Could SS be the movie buff?

I have never used periods as separators in acronyms and frankly was not aware of that until know. I wasn't heavy into student activism, so maybe I missed all that. Any body have any idea how common a use it was to use periods as separators in acronyms? Would journalist grad like PR know this well?

[BlueCrab]

I think we have been concentrating on the student only track of connections: TS knows NI through APAC and NI knows the Rams. But NI really came to know the Rams through SS.

Could it be that that SS discussed with NI his involvement with APAC and what it was? SS was working at the university (at management level) and must have been aware of APAC through NI. Maybe in discussions with NI, SS became aware of other 4 letter acronyms of APAC or just the idea of how the periods are used as separators. Are there other 4 letter acronyms of APAC prior to 1997? Could SS be the movie buff?

I have never used periods as separators in acronyms and frankly was not aware of that until know. I wasn't heavy into student activism, so maybe I missed all that. Any body have any idea how common a use it was to use periods as separators in acronyms? Would journalist grad like PR know this well?

Rupert,

Technically, S.J.N.I and S.B.T.C are not acronyms because the letters don't form a word. Since periods follow after each letter (except for the last letter) the four letters are the initials of persons, places, or things (in the case of S.J.N.I they stand for Students for Justice in Northern Ireland, a "thing").

Likewise with S.B.T.C , the letters likely stand for the initials of persons, places, or things.

BlueCrab

[Rupert]

Rupert,

Technically, S.J.N.I and S.B.T.C are not acronyms because the letters don't form a word. Since periods follow after each letter (except for the last letter) the four letters are the initials of persons, places, or things (in the case of S.J.N.I they stand for Students for Justice in Northern Ireland, a "thing").

Likewise with S.B.T.C , the letters likely stand for the initials of persons, places, or things.

BlueCrab
BlueCrab,
I found out that it is common to use periods between words in Chinese and Japanese (of course translated), thus no period after the end. In English usage the periods were all after each letter (eg. F.B.I.). From what I know so far, the missing period seems to be from the Chinese or Japanese separator use which fits of course with APAC.

I also noticed the course taught at university in Boulder on the murder of Vincent Chin (I think you've researched this before). Vincent Chin was beat over the head by a baseball bat and the suspects were acquitted. Susannah Chase was also murdered by a baseball bat over the head at Christmas one year after JonBenet. There was a baseball bat left out behind the Ramsey's home. Hmmm.

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,
I found out that it is common to use periods between words in Chinese and Japanese (of course translated), thus no period after the end. In English usage the periods were all after each letter (eg. F.B.I.). From what I know so far, the missing period seems to be from the Chinese or Japanese separator use which fits of course with APAC.

I also noticed the course taught at university in Boulder on the murder of Vincent Chin (I think you've researched this before). Vincent Chin was beat over the head by a baseball bat and the suspects were acquitted. Susannah Chase was also murdered by a baseball bat over the head at Christmas one year after JonBenet. There was a baseball bat left out behind the Ramsey's home. Hmmm.


Rupert,

Of course, the Vincent Chin murder was a hate crime and took place in 1982 in Detroit. The Asian-American community was rightfully upset when the two killers, admittingly blaming Japanese carmakers for taking away American jobs, were given light sentences and never spent a day in jail. The furor over the court's apparent bias ignited the cause of Asian-American justice that is carried on by Asian-American groups, such as APAC, to this day. (However, the APAC group at CU in Boulder disbanded immediately following the JonBenet murder.)

The bat used in the Susannah Chase murder in Boulder one year after JonBenet was murdered in 1996 was recovered and the bat contains the DNA of both Susannah and her killer, who has never been identified.

BlueCrab

[aussiesheila]

I mena no disrespect, but I find that, often in the JBR cae, people hear hoofbeats, and assume it must be a herd of Zebras.

The obvious is the most likely.

The Ramsey family - Definitely Patsy, maybe John, less likely Burke - knows something, has hidden something, has not fully cooperated, I believe we can agree - and as a result, justice has not been served.

IMOYes, I agree. I have always thought STBC stands for Saved by the Cross and that Patsy wrote it. I think that in her mind it was some kind of appeal to her God for her own salvation because of her own guilt. I think she knew deep down in her heart she bore some responsibility for JonBenet's death because of her association with the pedophiles who I think killed JonBenet. I think that although she was devastated by the death of her daughter she was still thinking of herself as she wrote the note.

[Linda7NJ]

Perhaps Patsy killed her to protect her from further molestation by someone near & dear to her. Sorta a mercy killing. Believing her daughter would be better off with God. Perhaps she blamed Jon Benet. We know many mothers do and choose their spouse over their own child.

Reading the RN I can't help but think the author had an intimate, emotionally confusing relationship with John. The RN begins and the tone suggests there is no animosity, the kidnapping isn't personal on the part of the author. The author then says the others involved don't like him. This leads me to believe the author is struggling with her feelings concerning John. As the RN goes on the author seems to grow more resentful and the author takes jabs at him, personal ones. There is definite familiarity contained in that RN that simply put, should NOT be there.

[Linda7NJ]

The entire last two paragraphs are all about shifting responsibility for Jon Benet's murder from the author, who killed her, and blaming it on John. Jon Benet was already dead when that RN was written.

The author did not want to take any credit for the death of that child. What type of foreign faction that kidnaps and writes 3 page RN's doesn't want to take credit? I thought the entire purpose of the supposed RN was to make some sort of political statement. So why give John all the credit?

[BlueCrab]

Yes, I agree. I have always thought STBC stands for Saved by the Cross and that Patsy wrote it. I think that in her mind it was some kind of appeal to her God for her own salvation because of her own guilt. I think she knew deep down in her heart she bore some responsibility for JonBenet's death because of her association with the pedophiles who I think killed JonBenet. I think that although she was devastated by the death of her daughter she was still thinking of herself as she wrote the note.


aussiesheila,

The experts who had the original note to exam and had all of the present and historical exemplars to study all agreed that Patsy did not likely write the ransom note. Her 4.5 score almost eliminated her. John's 5.0 score eliminated him as the writer. Burke could not be eliminated as the writer, but his score was never made public.

[ellen13]

The more I think about it, the more I think I would leave off the last period.
For example, when I abbreviate United States of America, my hand
wants to write U.S.A
-it seems rather awkward to put a period after the A.
I definitely think it's one's style of writing-sort of like where one tends to put
commas like cat, dog, and mice or
cat, dog and mice minus the comma after dog.

Do we have something of Patsy's where she left the period off?

[aussiesheila]

The entire last two paragraphs are all about shifting responsibility for Jon Benet's murder from the author, who killed her, and blaming it on John. Jon Benet was already dead when that RN was written.

The author did not want to take any credit for the death of that child. What type of foreign faction that kidnaps and writes 3 page RN's doesn't want to take credit? I thought the entire purpose of the supposed RN was to make some sort of political statement. So why give John all the credit?I agree with you about the last two paragraphs of the note, but I don't agree that the author of the note killed JonBenet. I think Patsy wrote the note. I think Patsy felt some kind of guilt for Jonbenet's death because it arose as a result of ongoing sexual abuse that Patsy was aware of but did nothing to stop. I think Patsy suffered from a personality disorder and because of this she could not own up to her guilt and was transferring responsibility for what happened to John, blaming him for for not protecting JonBenet from the sexual abuse which mostly took place when he was away on his frequent business trips.

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

The experts who had the original note to exam and had all of the present and historical exemplars to study all agreed that Patsy did not likely write the ransom note. Her 4.5 score almost eliminated her. John's 5.0 score eliminated him as the writer. Burke could not be eliminated as the writer, but his score was never made public.Yes BlueCrab, I know this, but as you say, they didn't eliminate her completely. By their scoring method there was still a 10% chance that she did write the note. I also know that there were other experts who say that she definitely did write the note. Has anyone ever discussed tha analysis of Gideon Epstein on this forum?

[BlueCrab]

Yes BlueCrab, I know this, but as you say, they didn't eliminate her completely. By their scoring method there was still a 10% chance that she did write the note. I also know that there were other experts who say that she definitely did write the note. Has anyone ever discussed tha analysis of Gideon Epstein on this forum?


aussiesheila,

The only handwriting experts who had all of the historical and current exemplars and the original ransom note to study were the six used by the government. All others, including Gideon Epstein, had to work from copies after the original note was purposely destructively tested in a last ditch effort to obtain fingerprints.

Gideon Epstein, during the wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit, was shredded by Lin Wolf in a deposition. As aresult, his testimony that he was 100% sure that Patsy wrote the note, and much of his other testimony, was quashed by the court.

IMO Patsy did not write the note nor did she murder JonBenet. Females don't garrote their victims and then smash their skulls in two, followed by three pages of violent threats in a fake ransom note. And the foreign DNA on JonBenet is male. The murder has MALE written all over it.

BlueCrab

[rashomon]

aussiesheila,

IMO Patsy did not write the note nor did she murder JonBenet. Females don't garrote their victims and then smash their skulls in two, followed by three pages of violent threats in a fake ransom note.
BlueCrab

Wasn't JB's skull bashed in first?
For a female could very well have staged the garroting scene afterwards and have written three pages of violent threats to create the impression that the murder was committed by a male person.

[BlueCrab]

Wasn't JB's skull bashed in first?
For a female could very well have staged the garroting scene afterwards and have written three pages of violent threats to create the impression that the murder was committed by a male person.


rashomon,

The medical examiner, in his autopsy report, said that cause of death was asphyxia, associated with a smash on the head. It implies the strangulation came first. And the presence of petechial hemorrhages on the neck and eyelids, along with the almost total lack of blood on the brain, strongly suggest the strangulation came first.

Female killers are seldom violent. I just can't picture Patsy garroting JonBenet and whacking her with a baseball bat or some other heavy weapon. Patsy is up to her neck in the coverup, but IMO that's about the limit of her involvement. I also don't think Patsy wrote the ransom note, but she knows who did write it. And she knows that it was one of two people who killed JonBenet, but she doesn't know "for sure" which one actually did it.

BlueCrab

[Becba]

rashomon,

The medical examiner, in his autopsy report, said that cause of death was asphyxia, associated with a smash on the head. It implies the strangulation came first. And the presence of petechial hemorrhages on the neck and eyelids, along with the almost total lack of blood on the brain, strongly suggest the strangulation came first.

Female killers are seldom violent. I just can't picture Patsy garroting JonBenet and whacking her with a baseball bat or some other heavy weapon. Patsy is up to her neck in the coverup, but IMO that's about the limit of her involvement. I also don't think Patsy wrote the ransom note, but she knows who did write it. And she knows that it was one of two people who killed JonBenet, but she doesn't know "for sure" which one actually did it.

BlueCrabI think you are right but it doesn't cover Patsy walking in on John when the child is all but dead from a pinched vager(sp?) muscle and trying to hit john with a golf club and hitting JonBenet instead.
The injury to the head displaced a section of skull that was oblong like a golf club would leave.

[Nehemiah]

Gideon Epstein, during the wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit, was shredded by Lin Wolf in a deposition. As a result, his testimony that he was 100% sure that Patsy wrote the note, and much of his other testimony, was quashed by the court.BlueCrab

"Shredded", as in a personal opinion of the depo? I read it and thought that Epstein did a very good job of holding his own against LLW. Why was it quashed by the court? Was it only because he did not use the original, or some other reasons? Thanks.

[BlueCrab]

"Shredded", as in a personal opinion of the depo? I read it and thought that Epstein did a very good job of holding his own against LLW. Why was it quashed by the court? Was it only because he did not use the original, or some other reasons? Thanks.


Nehemiah,

From Judge Julie Carnes order dismissing the Wolf v Ramsey lawsuit:

"Epstein's explanation for his conclusion seems to be little more than 'Trust me I'm an expert'."

Epstein did not have the original note nor did he obtain original Patsy Ramsey exemplars. He deviated from the methodology he had previously asserted was required to make a reasoned judgment. The court also concluded that Epstein's conclusion could not carry the day because of the unanimous opinion by the CBI's six handwriting experts who contradicted Epstein's conclusion.

BlueCrab

[SisterSocks]

If an intruder really did write the note, he did not kidnap her, so why even leave a note?

Maybe he had already wrote the note.

[Linda7NJ]

Maybe he had already wrote the note.
Doesn't make sense. If he/she had already written the note, why would he/she risk placing it on the stairs AFTER she was dead?

To place it on the stairs BEFORE he took her to the basement would have been ridiculous.

The note was written after she was dead, to explain her death and point LE away from family members. The RN was bogus from the start.

[aussiesheila]

Nehemiah,

From Judge Julie Carnes order dismissing the Wolf v Ramsey lawsuit:

"Epstein's explanation for his conclusion seems to be little more than 'Trust me I'm an expert'."

Epstein did not have the original note nor did he obtain original Patsy Ramsey exemplars. He deviated from the methodology he had previously asserted was required to make a reasoned judgment. The court also concluded that Epstein's conclusion could not carry the day because of the unanimous opinion by the CBI's six handwriting experts who contradicted Epstein's conclusion.

BlueCrabOK, so it was six against one. But that doesn't mean that the six are right and the one is wrong. I think it is quite reasonable to take the position I do which is that Epstein is right and the other six are wrong.

[Rupert]

The Rams have been made suspicious by various interpretations of what they did. I too can succumb to that I know. I also know that they were under intense spotlight. Now....

"We are the S.B.T.C Group" - That's what the RN clearly says.

Kind of like the "K.J.L.B Group", which was the last group in NI's APAC before it was disbanded in April 1997. The Rams were with the Stines in the same house as NI. "S.B.T.C Group" must have been in his face.

Now, why didn't NI see the connection and bring this to the attention of the Rams or the BPD?

We know that the BPD had no knowledge or interest in NI. So, I don't think this coincidence was ever brought to the attention of the BPD or the Rams.

Just to keep the old talk going.....an open mind.

[LinasK]

I mena no disrespect, but I find that, often in the JBR cae, people hear hoofbeats, and assume it must be a herd of Zebras.

The obvious is the most likely.

The Ramsey family - Definitely Patsy, maybe John, less likely Burke - knows something, has hidden something, has not fully cooperated, I believe we can agree - and as a result, justice has not been served.

IMO
I agree Sandra, I think Saved By The Cross is a far more likely explanation than Stop Bombing Third World Countries/Children, Subic Bay Training Center, or Southwestern Bell Telephone Company. All of those explanations are really reaching, IMO. Patsy has NOT been eliminated as the writer of the note, because I do believe she wrote it to cover for the murder of JBR, committed when John went too far in sexually abusing JBR. The murder was then staged, and Patsy wrote the note to cover-up, plant that an intruder did it with a planned kidnapping. She just didn't think her alibi through, kinda like Scott Peterson with his alibi!

[UKGuy]

I agree Sandra, I think Saved By The Cross is a far more likely explanation than Stop Bombing Third World Countries/Children, Subic Bay Training Center, or Southwestern Bell Telephone Company. All of those explanations are really reaching, IMO. Patsy has NOT been eliminated as the writer of the note, because I do believe she wrote it to cover for the murder of JBR, committed when John went too far in sexually abusing JBR. The murder was then staged, and Patsy wrote the note to cover-up, plant that an intruder did it with a planned kidnapping. She just didn't think her alibi through, kinda like Scott Peterson with his alibi!

LinasK,

IMO any combination of the three people left alive in the Ramsey household may have murdered JonBenet.

Assuming your theory is correct, why does Patsy assist John ?


.

[Eagle1]

Saved By the Cross could also be a pseudo-religious killer's (sinning-willfully) philosophy of life, that he can do absolutely anything he wants and be forgiven, demand forgiveness, a word JAR seemed to have heard from some propagandist somewhere, because of the Cross. (The orthodox know that if you sin willfully, "there remains no more sacrifice for sin". You've deliberately thrown away the Cross.)

[LinasK]

LinasK,

IMO any combination of the three people left alive in the Ramsey household may have murdered JonBenet.

Assuming your theory is correct, why does Patsy assist John ?


.
UK Guy, I actually just answered this on another thread:

Because of the negative PR, she had to cover up for him. She stands by her man, the repercussions would've been to great otherwise. They present a united front. It's classic- mother choses husband over daughter. Many mothers of abused children do this.

A little bit about me: I am also a molestation victim. In my case, my abuser was my mother's brother and she was close to him. She chose to remain in denial when I finally told her, rather than face that her brother could do that to her daughter.

[LinasK]

Upon reading another thread about the Ransom note at A Candy Rose website the other day, http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ransomnote.htm, I came across some other interesting facts about the acronym S.B.T.C. :

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation," (http://www.acandyrose.com/books.htm)

Page 65:

"From another basement storage closet, a crime scene tech pulled a plaque denoting that John Ramsey had served in the navy at Subic Bay in the philippines. The media erroneously added the words Training Center to Subic Bay and obtained an explanation for SBTC acronym, although Subic Bay was a massive naval installation, not a training base. Everybody had a theory."


04-13-2000 Good Morning America
(Elizabeth Vargas) Live Chat
with former Detective Steve Thomas (http://www.acandyrose.com/04132000gma.htm)

Moderator at 12:07pm ET:
Dana T writes: "Do you have any theories behind what S.B.T.C. signifies?"

Steve Thomas at 12:08pm ET:
"You know, we searched high and low, far and wide, and heard everything from "Saved By The Cross" to Ramsey's own suggestion of "Star Base Technical Command," but were never definitively able to attach a source to that acronym. However, an open Bible on Ramsey's desk in the house, NIV version, Psalms 35-36, verses 1-4, contains the acrostic SBTC, backwards."

[SuperDave]

I remember that.

[Rocky]

Bluecrab,
If it wasn't RDI, then I think the perp did it for a premeditated poltical reason and had the inside on the R's. I think the RN was a message. "We do respect your bussiness (kissiness) but not the country (Little Miss America) that it serves." In other words, we know you love your daughter but we have a message and as a symbol she is unfortunately chosen. Since it was a message, then it was written in code (so as to hide their identity S.B.T.C from most of us), just like "K.J.L.B Groups" is no doubt a code too. Coincidence? - this one is too strong.

The perp might have been hyped up on drugs while watching Nick of Time that night and couldn't help but infuse his favorite hobby, watching the movies. The perp is vengeful and wants to gain control and thus takes pleasure instructing John just the way that the father was in Nick of Time. The thought made me wonder if the R's received some other instructions which they could not tell about. After all, there were some missing sheets. Perhaps that's why they became so defensive. Speculation and I know you have your own ideas.

I don't think enough thinking has been done yet on this case and the BPD should definitely check this out.

Was Michael in atlanta during these interviews?

[Woodsman]

I have another that goes Kill Johni L Benet, and SBTC is a public reply Strangled Bound Tortured Corpsed, but that seems to belong in the Stephen King realm, or from a forthcoming BTK true crime thriller.



S.B.T.C could also be Stangled Bound Tortured Child

[curiositycat]

Please set aside Patsy's involvement just for the timebeing.

The missing period and Students for Justice in Northern Ireland (S.J.N.I) and Tom Shelley's possible tie-in to the Ramsey case should be the topic.

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/SJNI/

For instance, could we have some thoughts about those four initials resembling the format (no punctuation mark after the last letter) also used at APAC's website and on the Ramsey ransom note?

Also, the hand printed S.J.N.I writing sure looks familiar. IMO it should be professionally analyzed and compared to the printing in the ransom note.

BlueCrabIn the ten years I have been interested in this case I have believed PR did it and JR knew it.

YOURS IS THE FIRST OTHER THEORY I HAVE HEARD THAT MAKES SOME SENSE!!

Thanks for these postings.

[cwiz24]

Jon Benet was already dead when that RN was written.

You don't know that.

[Linda7NJ]

Doesn't make sense. If he/she had already written the note, why would he/she risk placing it on the stairs AFTER she was dead?

To place it on the stairs BEFORE he took her to the basement would have been ridiculous.

The note was written after she was dead, to explain her death and point LE away from family members. The RN was bogus from the start.
I'll stick by my opinion, I am not buying into the Karr guy's fantasies or the notion that an intruder did it.

I would love for Karr to be the guy....but he ain't

[Eagle1]

Was Michael in atlanta during these interviews?

Hi, Rocky. Do you mean Michael Helgoth?

Court TV channel had a program the Thursday night after JMK was arrested, 6 pm, Eastern, discussing other suspects including Helgoth. They had Helgoth's friend (?) Kannady telling that he hung out with some very rough characters at an auto parts junk yard. He said he'd been elated about a chance for him and another friend to make $50,000 or $60,000 but just before Christmas he became depressed, and wondered how it would be to bash in a human head. (Somebody else got the job?)

Somewhere in the story a dead child found in a duffle bag was mentioned, not in connection with Helgoth. And I remembered there was a duffle bag in the crawl space of the Ramsey home, people decided wasn't important. I think even if JMK is one of the killers and wrote the RN, dictated to him, he certainly wasn't the only one, and didn't have anything against JR. He only talks about loving little girls, not resentment of JR.

Glad to see you here, from the P.P. This case is so compelling I hardly ever get there any more. Yep, some young people could have made a secret flight to Boulder and back that night, though we don't know they were associates of Helgoth, especially if they knew SOMETHING was coming down. JAR may or may not have made it home before his mom's arising, to go to the airport with his sister, reason JR hired a lawyer, I believe, for her/the older children. I just can't figure what the SOMETHING coming down could be. Or what the eccentric "friends" all had in common, reason they could all get there so early next morning, maybe ALL wearing the previous night's clothes, for all we know. Maybe nobody went to bed? Not just PR?

If the killer shot Helgoth, and if JMK was involved, why didn't he get shot too? Helgoth was right-handed, but was shot from the left, you know, so the boots could have been planted, and the stun-gun, staging, because he knew too much, had been considered for some $50 or $60,000 job but was evidently replaced, if Kannady's telling the truth about all of that.

[Annette]

I'm just a lurker here, and I've tried to scan to see if this has been answered/addressed already, but I'm not finding it, so...I'll go ahead and ask:
Do I understand notes to the first child bride were also signed SBTC per her Mother's recollection? Have we ever seen where that girl was asked what she thought it meant? If I received a note from a boyfriend with any words or reference I didn't understand, I'd probably not hesitate to ask, "Babe, what did that mean?"

And one other thing I never see referenced is - could PR and all her actions that evening have been impaired by some serious drug influence?

I'm sorry if these are old and long ago discussed items - but I didn't see them when I tried to look. Thanks.

[BloodshotEye]

Very interesting and well researched theory posited here.

I can't help but wonder, if the reason these "persons of interest leads" (e.g. IN, Wolf, Hogarth, BR, Kennady) seem to hit a wall, is because there is more than one person who has knowingly or unkowingly provided access to this home/child (and was not at the crime scene), and each person does not have a typical relationship/connection one another. Perhaps, none at all. That might be why, when you follow one of these threads, it has a dead end. Falls off the map.

S.B.T.C_ : Could this have been deliberately used, to implicate someone in this low-life criminal community, who used this phrase, or had a t-shirt or cap with this moniker (Wolf & Hogarth)? And what makes this even more curious, is the RL author, unknowingly left his own "calling card", by the way he wrote S.B.T.C_ (as BlueCrab has discussed). This suggests yet another affiliation, that is unrelated to others participating in this crime.


Example:
IN: Very interesting person, (Great research, Blue Crab!). Is it possible that someone used his "access" and familiarity to/with this family? Perhaps by saying, "Hey, we're just going to pull a little Christmas prank on the family. We're going to leave some joke Christmas gifts in the house, while they are gone. All in fun". And IN, not wanting to be the odd man out, and maybe as BlueCrab suggests, may have had some quiet resentful feelings toward JR, went along with it. Hey, it wouldn't be him that actually entered the house; and it was all in playful fun.

Who would have wanted access? As BlueCrab and others suggested, someone who harbored resentment toward JR (his wealth, the graphics company, his privileged wife and spoiled child, etc.). And did this individual "recruit" one of the criminal low-lifes in the neighborhood, who would be a willing participant (e.g. someone like Kennady or ?).

I think that more than one individual "talked" about this. Mused about it. But only one, more likely two individuals actually entered this house; and they both had totally different agendas. One liked the idea of using the child, as the target of his resentment. The other, really liked the idea of the child - because they were a child predator. These two "agendas" is perhaps why we have a crime scene, having elements that are somewhat unusual to find together. I speculate that it is because there are two different people, that are acting out in two different ways.

One of these two people is smart. If the child died before the RL was written, I speculate that they knew if would be difficult to prove 1st degree murder - if it was an intended kidnapping gone bad. That RL looks like whomever wrote it, was damn scared. They were writing on a tablet, yet their letters are quavering. Hand shaking. Adrenaline or fear of death?

This "multiple of persons involved" reminds me of when there is a murder trial, and the two or three participants in the murder are tried separately. They each accuse the other. And the jury is riddled with doubt about who actually caused the death - if any of them.

This complicated murder will never be solved by the BPD, because it doesn't fit into their Crime Scene 101 expection of motive and M.O., and peculiar elements of the crime scene such as the RL's S.B.T.C_

sorry to be so long winded.

[Eagle1]

Do I understand notes to the first child bride were also signed SBTC per her Mother's recollection?

And one other thing I never see referenced is - could PR and all her actions that evening have been impaired by some serious drug influence?

Good questions. Where did you hear this about the first child bride and SBTC? Maybe it's in the news today. I had to get a little work done for a change this morning.

[SuperDave]

So far, I don't think they've come up with any.

BUT, they HAVE found an eyewitness! Vernell Duncan is her name. Apparently, Karr helped her move furniture on Christmas day, then he and his second wife took off to Georgia.

[Annette]

Thanks Eagle1.

I've mostly only read this forum for a few days now, so was thinking I had seen here in some post or link where the mother of Karr's first wife said she thought she remembered notes signed that way - but if you aren't familiar with that, then I'm possibly mistaken or confused. I did not follow this case prior so it HAS been a lot of information for my brain to try to absorb in a short time - I could be short-circuiting something.

As for PR - I wondered if a drug impaired state could account for her agreeing to participate in a coverup or talked into believeing she hadn't really seen what she thought she saw (to trigger the outrage). I too wondered why not turn over someone if you discovered them doing something heinous to your child, and the presence of a drug element plus the ways that could be twisted to manipulate a guilt and horror stricken, dependent individual - fit.

I haven't decided any one way or another on all this yet. I'm still in a drinking-it-all-in mode.

[LaMer]

I'm just a lurker here, and I've tried to scan to see if this has been answered/addressed already, but I'm not finding it, so...I'll go ahead and ask:
Do I understand notes to the first child bride were also signed SBTC per her Mother's recollection? Have we ever seen where that girl was asked what she thought it meant? If I received a note from a boyfriend with any words or reference I didn't understand, I'd probably not hesitate to ask, "Babe, what did that mean?"

And one other thing I never see referenced is - could PR and all her actions that evening have been impaired by some serious drug influence?

I'm sorry if these are old and long ago discussed items - but I didn't see them when I tried to look. Thanks.

Welcome to Websleuths Annette:)

Yes it was suppose to have been notes or letters to the girl, which had been signed SBTC, per her mother. That was in the news several days ago. As far as I know, nothing has been shown for any proof. It was so many years ago, they might have thrown them away.

About Patsy using drugs, I have no idea. On the eve of the 26th, I read where she had a doctor in attentdence, he more than likely gave her something.

What actions are you referring to? The night of the 25th or the 26th? IMO she did say some very strange things on the night of the 26th, according to Pam Griffin. John too, for that matter.

[Annette]

Thanks for the welcome LaMer! And for the clarification on the long-ago letters to the first wife.