IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[ktgirl]

I think the Spierers have been realistic and truthful about the possibility that drugs were involved and that Lauren may have been given drugs with or without her knowledge. Based on their statements to the media and on Twitter about Lauren's condition, calling 911 and their pleas to others to be safe and call for help for others, I've always thought they probably did consider the overdose rumor a possibility. Just my impression though.

I agree with this completely. I won't go pull specific quotes right now, but IMO the Spierer's have been very realistic and upfront about the fact that Lauren and her friends were drinking and possibly using drugs on the night of June 2, 2011.

I have never felt that they were burying their heads in the sand regarding Lauren using illegal substances (even alcohol would have been illegal for her, as she was not 21).

In fact, the allegations of the civil suit are the closest they have come (IMO) to sounding straight-up accusatory toward the POI's for Lauren's incapacitated state-- & I feel that their real motivation for the suit is to find the truth, not to lay blame in a p**sing contest. Through Twitter postings and interviews I don't believe I have really heard the Spierer's blame others for Lauren's incapacitated state. The accusations I have heard are accusations of lying and hiding the truth; coupled with begging for answers.

JMO

ETA: I have been put under the impression that the Spierer's believe that an overdose is a real possibility. I have not had any personal conversations with Rob Spierer…. but that is certainly my impression from their statements and interviews. I agree with the poster who said it seems likely that the Spierer's would want to dispel the idea of an overdose if they did not believe it to be possible.

I agree also.

Hoping 2014 brings justice for Lauren and answers for her family!

 

[AbbeyR]

Happy New Year everyone!

I hope 2014 brings Lauren home :heart:

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've been reading up on head injuries and discovered a specific type called basilar skull fracture that presents with a black eye (although I realize she could've gotten a black eye any number of ways during any of the several falls) and that made me start wondering about the possibility that Lauren did crash out at JR's and was discovered expired from her head injuries LATER that morning. Do we know the time frame for all the surveillance video's LE pulled? It seems plausible that if the decision was made to disappear Lauren that they may have put her in a vehicle but then waited until later in the morning when they would be less conspicuous driving around. Could the timeline have been purposefully disrupted by JR saying she left at 4:15 to throw a wrench in the whole investigation?

basilar skull fracture link:
scroll down to the heading "When to go to A&E"

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/black-eye/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Very possible. We discussed similar possibilities in a more generalized way previously. A key point here is that JR was attributed with saying he saw black eye, which under most usual impacts would not appear "black" unless a) she had become deceased or b) it was the type of serious trauma you describe. Otherwise for the short time interval involved a so-called "black eye" would actually still just be puffy and red, it would take a lot more time before blood could accumulate and show color. Ever see a boxer after a fight? Right after the fight you can see their eye all puffed up and red. It's not until many hours later, usually the next day that the "black eye" is visible.

 

[VeryVeritas]

It's strange, but I just watched a recorded 48 Hours or Dateline episode that involved this very thing, it wasn't until a new investigator took over a case that the timeline was expanded, not just based on what witnesses/POIs shared, and they found the guilty party, it was a POI the previous investigators had focused on before but they couldn't pinpoint his involvement in the case during the timeline he gave, a little expansion and fresh eyes took less than a month to discover the POI had lied. It seemed so ridiculously simple to do but it didn't happen until a new investigator took over! BTW, the old investigators were very pleased and helped out with the new case against the POI. Sometimes it's good to look at things anew, with fresh eyes.

I would feel terrible if these 5N boys did not disappear Lauren as many of us think they did because a lot of us have been hammering away at them for a very long time. What I want from them, and ALL involved that evening, is to tell the truth and share their involvement in what happened that evening regarding Lauren. Tell the truth, you can do it, if it costs you something in the end, then you'll be better for it because you would have learned a hard lesson and bring your own self peace but, most importantly, you will bring Lauren's family peace, they not only need it, but deserve it. Do the right thing please.

GIVE ME SOMETHING ELSE TO HAMMER AT!

And please... get the cooperation of these 3 decent upstanding young men to find their missing 98lb lady friend whom they were responsible for.... if you can get them to humble their outrageously arrogant attitudes in the process it would be much appreciated.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Haha, yes, you all know how I feel about psychics.

To be clear, my point was only that we don't know what evidence exists. IMO, we just can't conclude that there was or was not a cadaver dog hit, based on the fact that there hasn't been an arrest (see last post) or because LE has not told the public (they haven't told us one way or another what evidence exists or doesn't).

I have wondered about this, but not because of the psychic. After doing a little research online, I wouldn't trust her or her dogs at all. The one thing that gave me pause is that when the psychic claimed publicly that LE told the Spierers that their cadaver dogs hit in the same place, behind a dumpster outside of 5 N, the story was confirmed (on FB) by Don Cranfill, who is not a psychic and was apparently working with the Spierers to organize the searches. I don't know anything about him or whether he or this rumor is legit - so this is one of the many unanswered questions I have about Lauren's case.

This did seem very credible and one of several reasons I think LS is not alive.
(Certainly if there were any possibility that she is alive, that should be investigated by the FBI)

So... assuming that this hit is Credible and Real, could it be anyone other than LS? I'm not aware of any other missing people in that area at that time. It's also a very curious spot. Because the last known place that LS existed was coming out of that Alley enroute to 5N. Then some 10 yards or so to the left from that her wallet/purse and keys were found. In a nearly straight line from that spot towards 5N the dumpster sits. It's dark, there are no doors on that side of 5N. In that whole gravel lot area behind 5N it's about the single best location to put someone temporarily if you didn't want someone to find a body just laying there.

It was reasonable to check the dump for the body especially if this hit was confirmed. Putting the body here by the dumpster could have just been a temporary situation until it was removed and taken elsewhere.
This does explain the search of CR's vehicle because his vehicle was in that Gravel lot. We don't know if anything was found, but since CR still struts cocksure of his freedom it's unlikely that CR's vehicle was used.

It does seem likely that the body would have been put into "something"
Originally, because of her size, I thought a plastic cooler may have been 1 possibility. Others have suggested sleeping bags. In the past few days Golf Club bag popped into my head. Any of these dudes play Golf? Golf club bags are sometimes really heavy duty. Even in a routine traffic stop how likely is LE to open up a Golf Club bag?

It seems very plausible to me that MB didn't transfer LS to JR, instead he transferred responsibility for LS to JR.
In this scenario MB explains to JR that CR was bringing her over and she died outside, CR left her out back by the dumpster. Now MB asks, "what do you want to do? "
Pretty simple... CR claims amnesia, MB says LS went to JR's (which was true but that happened EARLIER that evening so he could pass a polygraph, and swear under oath if asked that question), and JR takes it from there.
This kind of scenario explains the inconsistencies in MB's statements, mainly that he was oblivious to her condition as seen on cam and as reported by JR.
I'm curious how long his 3:30am call to JR lasted.
The only reason other possibilities seemed to make sense to me was that initially I remember reports saying that JR came over to CR/MB's and that others were present.
That did not seem to prove out. Instead its just MB's word and the known phone call to JR. MB has said nothing that causes me to believe that he saw LS after that fall exiting the Alley.
If he didn't see her it narrows the possibilities considerably. Clearly he would be protecting CR and deflecting responsibility back to JR when otherwise MB himself wouldn't have had much culpability.
JR it seems would be on the hook no matter what, better for him to be on the hook with no body, than on the hook with a body.
If MB had not done this, then CR would be in the hot seat. In order to reduce CR's culpability he would have to implicate JR for drugs, etc... So then JR would be in the hotseat.
JR made himself the last to see LS, and so this current civil suit was the least impactful of legal options that may have surfaced if someone just called 911 when she was laying in that lot.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Well, I don't know all of the details of the KS case, but

- She went missing after drinking at a party off campus
-when she was last seen she was having trouble walking, passing out
- An acquaintance volunteered to 'help' her home
- That person was the last to see her
- He lied about what happened that night
- There was evidence pointing to his involvement in her disappearance
- They still haven't found her -> No arrests

What that case taught me was that having incriminating evidence (In this case, this included a cadaver hit in the POI's dorm room) may not be enough for an arrest if the person is not yet found. People will not be arrested unless they can make a case, and it is very difficult to make a case without knowing concretely what happened to the person.

It breaks my heart to think of these families without answers.

It amazes me how easy it is to get rid of a body under such circumstances.

 

[doubtingthomas]

In this scenario MB explains to JR that CR was bringing her over and she died outside, CR left her out back by the dumpster. Now MB asks, "what do you want to do? "
Pretty simple... CR claims amnesia, MB says LS went to JR's (which was true but that happened EARLIER that evening so he could pass a polygraph, and swear under oath if asked that question), and JR takes it from there.

(snipped by me)

Along the same line, if LS and CR left to go to Kilroy's by walking down 11th to College, JR could say he saw her rounding the corner (which would be true but happened earlier in the evening so he could pass a polygraph).

We also know that JR was having a party for his friend from Michigan BD. So a lot a discussion about DB having a car and possibly could be involved. Couldn't there have been other friends from Michigan there that night helping to celebrate DB? Wouldn't they have a car also and might be involved? Just thinking out loud.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

(snipped by me)

Along the same line, if LS and CR left to go to Kilroy's by walking down 11th to College, JR could say he saw her rounding the corner (which would be true but happened earlier in the evening so he could pass a polygraph).

We also know that JR was having a party for his friend from Michigan BD. So a lot a discussion about DB having a car and possibly could be involved. Couldn't there have been other friends from Michigan there that night helping to celebrate DB? Wouldn't they have a car also and might be involved? Just thinking out loud.

The only thing I have trouble with is if L died ANYWHERE other than inside one of their houses, I think they would've left her right where she was. Speaking of visitors that may have had vehicles, everyone was just about to leave Bloomington, right? What about rented moving vans? How likely would it have been for LE to check with the rental car companies from in AND outside of Bloomington and all the POI's credit card transactions? I'm going to stick my neck out and say I doubt they did all of that particularly checking rental car agencies at the point of destination for all these kids. But, I hope I'm wrong.

 

[akh]

(snipped by me)

Along the same line, if LS and CR left to go to Kilroy's by walking down 11th to College, JR could say he saw her rounding the corner (which would be true but happened earlier in the evening so he could pass a polygraph).

A polygraph doesn't work that way. Plus an examiner would be specific with the question and timing so JR would have to go thru the thought process of recalling a different memory to answer the question when he knows that's not the real answer to the question. Which means there will likely be physiological changes that the machine will register. If he has the ability to do that without causing a swing in the machine's reading then he could more easily just lie straight ahead and not need to play memory games. The memory 'game', and knowledge he's not really answering the question truthfully to its specific phrasing, would probably be more likely to trip things up even than just a calm lie without any thought. IMO.

We also know that JR was having a party for his friend from Michigan BD. So a lot a discussion about DB having a car and possibly could be involved. Couldn't there have been other friends from Michigan there that night helping to celebrate DB? Wouldn't they have a car also and might be involved? Just thinking out loud.

Of course they could be but the problem comes when you ask the question 'why'? Why would someone visiting a friend suddenly agree to involve themselves with a crime like you'd be alleging?

 

[holly18]

A polygraph doesn't work that way. Plus an examiner would be specific with the question and timing so JR would have to go thru the thought process of recalling a different memory to answer the question when he knows that's not the real answer to the question. Which means there will likely be physiological changes that the machine will register. If he has the ability to do that without causing a swing in the machine's reading then he could more easily just lie straight ahead and not need to play memory games. The memory 'game', and knowledge he's not really answering the question truthfully to its specific phrasing, would probably be more likely to trip things up even than just a calm lie without any thought. IMO.



Of course they could be but the problem comes when you ask the question 'why'? Why would someone visiting a friend suddenly agree to involve themselves with a crime like you'd be alleging?

If the friend had provided drugs that night, or if the friend had a vested interest in keeping whatever happened that night quiet I could see them helping. Plus aren't/weren't JR and DB in business together? Depending on what happened that night I think its possible that JR/CR/MB and very possibly DB wanted to avoid way too many questions. Obviously that doesn't necessarily work in the longterm, but if they were all intoxicated/high they were probably only thinking about the short term (ie call 911, cops come along with an ambulance and find drugs or find that they'd done something to Lauren). I don't see a visiting friend helping unless they have something to lose, but thats just imo

 

[Ixchel13]

A polygraph doesn't work that way. Plus an examiner would be specific with the question and timing so JR would have to go thru the thought process of recalling a different memory to answer the question when he knows that's not the real answer to the question. Which means there will likely be physiological changes that the machine will register. If he has the ability to do that without causing a swing in the machine's reading then he could more easily just lie straight ahead and not need to play memory games. The memory 'game', and knowledge he's not really answering the question truthfully to its specific phrasing, would probably be more likely to trip things up even than just a calm lie without any thought. IMO.



Of course they could be but the problem comes when you ask the question 'why'? Why would someone visiting a friend suddenly agree to involve themselves with a crime like you'd be alleging?

BBM Because that person was directly involved?

 

[Ixchel13]

But, why would anyone bother tossing it over the fence of Kilroys? What would be the purpose of doing that, I mean, they managed to get rid of a whole person, I think they could've gotten rid of cell phone without adding the possibility of being seen or on camera tossing the phone over the fence.

Before Lauren left to go to JR's, she was at SW down the hall watching the game with HT, friends, and the mystery man who was the last person called/texted by JR right before Lauren supposedly left to go home.

Right before she left to go to JR's, she made a call from her phone at around 12:18 which was the last time she used her phone. So then she went to JR's,
then over to CR's for an hour and then to Kilroys for again almost an hour,
leaving after 2:30. So for over 2 hours, she doesn't use her phone?

When they then return to SW and go upstairs to the 5th floor, they don't have the altercation by Lauren's door, but down the hall. I'm going out on a limb and saying the altercation happened at the door of the apt they were watching the game at earlier...where the mystery guy was. The last guy called.

Lauren and CR then exited (escaped?) and went to the apt. at 10th and College where the four women were who were also at the apt. at SW earlier watching the game with Lauren and this mystery man.

What was Lauren looking for, if not her phone, first at the apt. down the hall where she had been right before last using her phone, and secondly, at the apt. where 4 girls were who were also at that apt. at the same time Lauren last used her phone?

If the timeline is off, and on purpose, it could be that Lauren did leave, and on the way back home at 3:38 encountered these girls AND the out of town guest or any combination of the people who were previously with her at SW; an argument ensued, she fell and cracked her head and they brought her inside to an apt. at 10th and College where she died. Lots of moving in and out at that time and people had vans and moving blankets. Also people making extra money helping others move. ZO's dad owns a furniture rental company
BTW.

If that scenario played out, it would have started at 3:38 instead of 4:28. Then the witness sighting would make sense, unless this witness is not telling the truth on purpose.
By turning the clock up and hour, it's classic denial again, as if nothing could have happened during that hour because JR is saying she was there til 4:30. Everyone else, ZC, her roomies, CR, DB, even JW, was "asleep". We are to believe Lauren simply out-partied everyone? BS! Then, they could insert the head smacking incident as happening around 2:45, right in the middle of CR's convenient amnesia. If it happened on the way to 5N, it had to be at that time! At 3:38 or after, it would have to be on her way back home.

She was re-tracing her steps frantically and there needs to be a reason. Earlier on,
on FB and on PT, people were suggesting she was looking for drugs, both by stopping by SW and also 10th and C. But IMO she was
looking for her phone, and if so, if that's what caused her to fall and hit her head and it was not an accident, but a push or a slam against the wall, then yes, they would want to put it back at Kilroys to seem like Lauren wasn't looking for her phone there, removing the motive.


One , or maybe two people have been pinpointed in this scenario, JMO,who have not been named POIs publicly:

Both were watching the game at SW down the hall from Lauren's apt with Lauren.

At least one of them lives at 10th and College.

One of them was the last person JR called/texted.

And these/this person had something Lauren wanted.

If not drugs, and then not her phone, what was it? just a scenario

 

[Ixchel13]

Want Ad I snipped from another site. Let's remember some high school seniors are 18:



TOO YOUNG TO GO TO BARS?? (Kilroy's Sports Bar)


North Walnut Street at 8th Street

We are now hiring 18 and up. Apply within at Kilroy's Sports Bar, 319 N. Walnut St.


North Walnut Street at 8th Street (google map) (yahoo map)

 

[holly18]

Before Lauren left to go to JR's, she was at SW down the hall watching the game with HT, friends, and the mystery man who was the last person called/texted by JR right before Lauren supposedly left to go home.

Right before she left to go to JR's, she made a call from her phone at around 12:18 which was the last time she used her phone. So then she went to JR's,
then over to CR's for an hour and then to Kilroys for again almost an hour,
leaving after 2:30. So for over 2 hours, she doesn't use her phone?

When they then return to SW and go upstairs to the 5th floor, they don't have the altercation by Lauren's door, but down the hall. I'm going out on a limb and saying the altercation happened at the door of the apt they were watching the game at earlier...where the mystery guy was. The last guy called.

Lauren and CR then exited (escaped?) and went to the apt. at 10th and College where the four women were who were also at the apt. at SW earlier watching the game with Lauren and this mystery man.

What was Lauren looking for, if not her phone, first at the apt. down the hall where she had been right before last using her phone, and secondly, at the apt. where 4 girls were who were also at that apt. at the same time Lauren last used her phone?

If the timeline is off, and on purpose, it could be that Lauren did leave, and on the way back home at 3:38 encountered these girls AND the out of town guest or any combination of the people who were previously with her at SW; an argument ensued, she fell and cracked her head and they brought her inside to an apt. at 10th and College where she died. Lots of moving in and out at that time and people had vans and moving blankets. Also people making extra money helping others move. ZO's dad owns a furniture rental company
BTW.

If that scenario played out, it would have started at 3:38 instead of 4:28. Then the witness sighting would make sense, unless this witness is not telling the truth on purpose.
By turning the clock up and hour, it's classic denial again, as if nothing could have happened during that hour because JR is saying she was there til 4:30. Everyone else, ZC, her roomies, CR, DB, even JW, was "asleep". We are to believe Lauren simply out-partied everyone? BS! Then, they could insert the head smacking incident as happening around 2:45, right in the middle of CR's convenient amnesia. If it happened on the way to 5N, it had to be at that time! At 3:38 or after, it would have to be on her way back home.

She was re-tracing her steps frantically and there needs to be a reason. Earlier on,
on FB and on PT, people were suggesting she was looking for drugs, both by stopping by SW and also 10th and C. But IMO she was
looking for her phone, and if so, if that's what caused her to fall and hit her head and it was not an accident, but a push or a slam against the wall, then yes, they would want to put it back at Kilroys to seem like Lauren wasn't looking for her phone there, removing the motive.


One , or maybe two people have been pinpointed in this scenario, JMO,who have not been named POIs publicly:

Both were watching the game at SW down the hall from Lauren's apt with Lauren.

At least one of them lives at 10th and College.

One of them was the last person JR called/texted.

And these/this person had something Lauren wanted.

If not drugs, and then not her phone, what was it? just a scenario

This is a believable scenario, but I still have a few questions: (not trying to attack at all, just trying to figure out your reasoning)
Why if she passed at 10th and college would JR/CR/MB take the fall for being the last to see her? That puts them in a lot of trouble, why wouldn't CR have just said that he left Lauren at ZC's, what would get JR and MB to admit to seeing her after the pregame party?
Why would there be an argument in the first place? If ZC had taken her phone, why would she have done that/ how did they then get her phone to Kilroys?

I just graduated from college, and I'm about as attached to my phone as any other girl in their early 20s, but there have been times when I've been out with friends and put my phone down and forgotten about it until the next day. Especially if Lauren was as messed up as the footage has said she was (ie falling multiple times, falling facedown without putting her hands out, etc) I just can't see her being that hell bent on getting her phone back that she'd be able to go to multiple locations or get into an altercation about her phone. If she was as out of it as we've been led to believe I just can't picture her caring about or even remembering her phone.

 

[Kadence]

GIVE ME SOMETHING ELSE TO HAMMER AT!

And please... get the cooperation of these 3 decent upstanding young men to find their missing 98lb lady friend whom they were responsible for.... if you can get them to humble their outrageously arrogant attitudes in the process it would be much appreciated.

VV, just trying to look at every angle, putting things out there for speculation/verification - maybe to open the timeline, look at different camera times and views, and different possibilities to add to our resources, just doing a little looking outside of the box.

IF LS did leave JRs in some way, stumbled/crawled out because he didn't want to deal with her, then where do we go? That's where I'm at, at the moment anyway...

Always respect your opinion, you add a lot to this thread, thanks for your feedback.

 

[VeryVeritas]

VV, just trying to look at every angle, putting things out there for speculation/verification - maybe to open the timeline, look at different camera times and views, and different possibilities to add to our resources, just doing a little looking outside of the box.

IF LS did leave JRs in some way, stumbled/crawled out because he didn't want to deal with her, then where do we go? That's where I'm at, at the moment anyway...

Always respect your opinion, you add a lot to this thread, thanks for your feedback.

I wasn't questioning your intentions. Always happy to explore possibilities, we have been doing that for years already, and anything other than 5N has been baseless. Saying that maybe she was abducted by UFO's isn't helpful. Everything points to the 5N guys and nothing, not one shred of anything points anywhere else. That was my point. If you want a serious discussion about other alternatives, please produce, links, facts, statements, or some other piece of credible information otherwise it's just less credible than searching for Big Foot (we do have the Roger Patterson film at least for that). Using your terminology, I would like something to HAMMER at... something other than 5N guys, but you provide nothing. So I will go back to HAMMERING where the NAILS are...

 

[VeryVeritas]

The only thing I have trouble with is if L died ANYWHERE other than inside one of their houses, I think they would've left her right where she was. Speaking of visitors that may have had vehicles, everyone was just about to leave Bloomington, right? What about rented moving vans? How likely would it have been for LE to check with the rental car companies from in AND outside of Bloomington and all the POI's credit card transactions? I'm going to stick my neck out and say I doubt they did all of that particularly checking rental car agencies at the point of destination for all these kids. But, I hope I'm wrong.

Why would they leave her right where she was? What would be consistent with what was happening say the 30 minutes before LS last known whereabouts? We know that CR was propping her up and carrying her. Is there any doubt about that? So if she falls face down into gravel without blocking with her hands (as though she is out cold) what would you expect CR to do? Her wallet/purse are found some 20 to 30 feet from that fall spot. Do you think she crawled there? Cartwheeled there perhaps? Or is it more likely that CR carried her there? Then it's something like 2 to 3 times that distance over to the dumpster. Was she maybe dancing her way towards 5N then? Or was it again more likely that CR was carrying her and something happened? Why on earth would CR just leave her there and go to bed if she were dead? Obviously he would know that he would be the last person to be seen with her (if not thinking about cameras, certainly the people at SW would remember him!!)... a bit too early for Amnesia to be kicking in. There is no sense at all that he would just leave her there by the dumpster when it clearly would point to him. If he were going to do that, he would have needed to call 911... and we have been around and around at why they chose not to do that. So there aren't a lot of options... you either do the right thing and call 911 or pass the buck or ditch the body. Seems the buck was passed and that left JR with the decision to call 911 or ditch the body.

But sure it is possible that CR did make it back to 5N with LS and then she died and they brought her back to that dumpster area. It just seems less likely to me. The reason I think this is that if you were going to bring her down deceased (in whatever) it would make sense to just put her directly into a vehicle or cart her off (in whatever - like some luggage has wheels, some coolers have wheels, some golf club bags have wheels, back packs would not look odd, etc... ) Taking the cadaver hit at the dumpster as Credible and Real makes it much more likely (to me) that she never made it back to 5N.

This is also a crucial timeframe (post Alley Cam but before 3:30 call from MB to JR) There never has been any mention of CR using his own phone at all this night. MB, JR, DR, DB, and LS all had some sort of known phone activity. Curious to me that CR didn't.

 

[VeryVeritas]

If the friend had provided drugs that night, or if the friend had a vested interest in keeping whatever happened that night quiet I could see them helping. Plus aren't/weren't JR and DB in business together? Depending on what happened that night I think its possible that JR/CR/MB and very possibly DB wanted to avoid way too many questions. Obviously that doesn't necessarily work in the longterm, but if they were all intoxicated/high they were probably only thinking about the short term (ie call 911, cops come along with an ambulance and find drugs or find that they'd done something to Lauren). I don't see a visiting friend helping unless they have something to lose, but thats just imo

"helping" or "unwitting accomplice" could have been as simple as leaving ones car keys out. Considering that I'm leaning towards LS dying in the gravel lot and laying over by the dumpster, picture this: CR gets over near the dumpster and something is happening. LS is dying... he tries to revive her or something. He maybe crys (if he has any soul at all) and takes time to get a grip. Maybe he conceals her somehow, puts something over the body. Then heads to his apt... he vomits and is clearly upset causing a commotion where MB gets curious. CR explains, perhaps emotionally and they maybe discuss it for a bit, hashing the consequences. MB then calls JR.
They agree on the simple plan: Amnesia, Transfer of LS to JR, and the rest is up to JR. It would be possible for JR to grab a friends keys and use their car briefly without them knowing. Although I think it's more likely that JR had help. And I agree with you that if someone assisted its because they either were also culpable or owed JR big time.

 

[Ixchel13]

I wasn't questioning your intentions. Always happy to explore possibilities, we have been doing that for years already, and anything other than 5N has been baseless. Saying that maybe she was abducted by UFO's isn't helpful. Everything points to the 5N guys and nothing, not one shred of anything points anywhere else. That was my point. If you want a serious discussion about other alternatives, please produce, links, facts, statements, or some other piece of credible information otherwise it's just less credible than searching for Big Foot (we do have the Roger Patterson film at least for that). Using your terminology, I would like something to HAMMER at... something other than 5N guys, but you provide nothing. So I will go back to HAMMERING where the NAILS are...

VV, your theories are well known and could possibly be true. But may I point out that you are also, like others here, filling in blanks and speculating?. Which I think is ok here as long as you say that's what you're doing and don't sleuth anyone who hasn't been named. I understand it is frustrating but if everyone had the same opinion we would be going in endless circles.

IMO, and everyone can agree, it was not as simple as she went here, then went there, then rounded a corner and was never seen again. Something else happened. When we use logic, such as, "if she was drunk and high she must have od'd and they hid her body," because this has happened many times before, it is still a guess. If you say, "she was with a group of men, so they must have turned on her, raped her and killed her, because it has happened before and statistics prove this," it is still a guess. If you say, "everything these guys say is a lie because they are spoiled, entitled rich kids who have everything to lose,' that is a valid guess, not an assured probability.

Because we don't have even half of the facts LE has, we are applying logic to
what we do think we know. Is it possible that something illogical happened?

You are absolutely certain that Lauren couldn't have possibly left alive, that she was too injured and drunk. But there is a way she could have--if the altercation at 10th and College happened on her way home and the head crack
happened then. With a witness that you believe because you have brought the
head smacking incident up so many times, saying it happened at 3:38, there is no other way this could have happened. At that point, all the other speculations about hiding her by the dumpster, calling someone to help them, etc, could have come into play.

Perhaps the answer to this mystery lies somewhere between the logical and the myriad of possibilities that define the human condition.

 

[Ixchel13]

"helping" or "unwitting accomplice" could have been as simple as leaving ones car keys out. Considering that I'm leaning towards LS dying in the gravel lot and laying over by the dumpster, picture this: CR gets over near the dumpster and something is happening. LS is dying... he tries to revive her or something. He maybe crys (if he has any soul at all) and takes time to get a grip. Maybe he conceals her somehow, puts something over the body. Then heads to his apt... he vomits and is clearly upset causing a commotion where MB gets curious. CR explains, perhaps emotionally and they maybe discuss it for a bit, hashing the consequences. MB then calls JR.
They agree on the simple plan: Amnesia, Transfer of LS to JR, and the rest is up to JR. It would be possible for JR to grab a friends keys and use their car briefly without them knowing. Although I think it's more likely that JR had help. And I agree with you that if someone assisted its because they either were also culpable or owed JR big time.

For her to die on the way to CR's, it would have to be from the head smack. So is it that you believe she smacked her head, but the witness is wrong about the time? Can you have it both ways? When there is something as glaring as
an hour's discrepancy, something is either very right about the witness'
testimony or very wrong.