Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#11

[otto]

We've both seen the video and will have to agree to disagree. The climb is never shown all the way through without the expert using the new bars. They cut away from him and when he's shown again he's sitting on the ledge. Now had he successfully made the climb without pulling on the new bars they would have no reason to not show it and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead they leave it to their viewers imagination.

Yes I want to believe it because his MO as you say was readily available for him, he previously used a balcony to break in not scale a wall.

Didn't the judge ask Bongiorno for the video of the lawyer "easily" climbing to the window, and there is none because the 6'2" lawyer could not climb up to the window? The video of the elite athlete climbing to the window is irrelevant because the circumstances are completely different. Guede is 5'10", so the 6'2" lawyer is also not an accurate simulation.

Author: Frank Sfarzo

"As for the “simulated break-in,” Bongiorno projected the picture of the lawyer, of whom she didn’t even remember the name, climbing it. Nencini: “I just see a guy hanging from a window, that doesn’t say anything to me. Don’t you have the video?” But no, la signorina Giulia, after having been paid 150,000 euro, didn’t even bother to burn a video. Not the one of the lawyer (of whom we do remember the name — Delfo Berretti), nor the one of the BBC, the existence of which she probably doesn’t even know. She probably has more important things to think about."

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/a...lecito-appeal-bongiorno-an-attack-too-polite/

 

[Katody]

We've both seen the video and will have to agree to disagree. The climb is never shown all the way through without the expert using the new bars. They cut away from him and when he's shown again he's sitting on the ledge. Now had he successfully made the climb without pulling on the new bars they would have no reason to not show it and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead they leave it to their viewers imagination.

The goal of the climb was not to sit on the ledge but open the window and go inside. That had been demonstrated sufficiently. Of course you and others are free to believe the British TV station is on Amanda's PR Supertanker payroll, along with the Perugian doctor who did the climb and gave his informed opinion that it would be easy for anyone to do.

Yes I want to believe it because his MO as you say was readily available for him, he previously used a balcony to break in not scale a wall.

He climbed to the lawyers window using bars below it, just like at the cottage. The climb was demonstrated as easy, Filomena's window was hidden from view.

But yes, I can understand how people can convince themselves something much more complicated and unusual happened, not just a simple burglary. That's understandable.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Sollecito's apartment is five minutes from the cottage, and Knox knew where Guede hung out. How is one and a half hours not enough time to get together, get stoned and pull one of Knox's pranks?

Even Crini has them leaving Sollecito's flat at 9:30, apparently after opening the Naruto. Meredith was dead before 10, probably long before. MOO.

 

[Katody]

Didn't the judge ask Bongiorno for the video of the lawyer "easily" climbing to the window, and there is none because the 6'2" lawyer could not climb up to the window? The video of the elite athlete climbing to the window is irrelevant because the circumstances are completely different.

Neither the lawyer that climbed the window easily (demonstrated on video which is in the case file in Hellmann's court) nor doctor Ricardo Panella are "elite athletes". One was Raffaele's lawyer, the other is a young Perugian oncologist.

 

[Amber29]

Even Crini has them leaving Sollecito's flat at 9:30, apparently after opening the Naruto. Meredith was dead before 10, probably long before. MOO.

What proof do you have for TOD? I thought the ME didn't give a specific TOD only a range of hours.

 

[otto]

Even Crini has them leaving Sollecito's flat at 9:30, apparently after opening the Naruto. Meredith was dead before 10, probably long before. MOO.

I thought that Crini was actually unable to put a time to the murder, stating that it could have been earlier or later, but between 9 PM and midnight.

Do you have a link to Crini's discussion of the time of murder?

Regarding the time of murder, are you relying on the stomach contents to determine time of murder?

 

[Myvice]

I have been wanting to reread Amandas writings from before she got to Italy. I can't remember where I saw it so I'm hoping someone could point me in the right direction. It included her stories and the time she spent in Germany IIRCC. Anyone have a clue as to where I saw that LOL? TIA

 

[Amber29]

@Katody

Previously you had said something about Stephanie Kerchers testimony. Do you have a link to it, I'd like to read it as its testimony I haven't had the chance to read.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What proof do you have for TOD? I thought the ME didn't give a specific TOD only a range of hours.

There are two strong, independent lines of evidence: the various activities related to Meredith's cellphones (briefly summarized earlier today) and the lack of anything in Meredith's duodenum. The hypothesis that nothing will pass into the duodenum in 5.5 hours (Mignini and Massei are responsible for this idea) is close to impossible. Beyond those two, there are all of the things that Meredith did not do but would have been expected to do upon her arrival home, such as call her mother again, remove her jacket, sent texts or emails, attend to damp laundry, etc.

 

[Amber29]

I have been wanting to reread Amandas writings from before she got to Italy. I can't remember where I saw it so I'm hoping someone could point me in the right direction. It included her stories and the time she spent in Germany IIRCC. Anyone have a clue as to where I saw that LOL? TIA

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39

I believe the German diary and short stories are there, if not let me know and ill help you find it.

That's their "in their own words" section. Not their discussion forum.

 

[Myvice]

Thanks much Amber29! Dang thanks button rarely works LOL!

 

[Amber29]

There are two strong, independent lines of evidence: the various activities related to Meredith's cellphones (briefly summarized earlier today) and the lack of anything in Meredith's duodenum. The hypothesis that nothing will pass into the duodenum in 5.5 hours (Mignini and Massei are responsible for this idea) is close to impossible. Beyond those two, there are all of the things that Meredith did not do but would have been expected to do upon her arrival home, such as call her mother again, remove her jacket, sent texts or emails, attend to damp laundry, etc.

5.5 hours where does that come from? She ate at 6:30ish and had dessert after 8?
Not tending to laundry is proof of nothing, I've started laundry and forgot about it until the next day many times.
The cell phone activity is a point of disagreement. The activity before 10 there's no proof who was doing it. At 10:13 the phone was still near the cottage(it wasn't yet at Lana's), so if RG committed the murder minutes after 9 and left immediately, how is the cell activity explained? He was there an hour after the murder?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

IIRC the testimony about time of the meal gave a range of values. 6:30 is at the late of the range. Even so, that would be at least 5 hours to reach the TOD envisioned by Mignini or Massei. My recollection is that they had dessert around 7:45, but I might be wrong. From what I can gather (this is not my area of expertise), the stomach is able to work in a segmented or compartmentalized fashion, so that food which enters later behaves separately from food consumed earlier. If you are claiming that the phone was definitely at the cottage at 10:13, then we will have to agree to disagree. It connected with a tower that was about ten times more distant than the tower usually used. It is difficult to see why Meredith would call the very first number in her stored phone numbers and not use the country code (Abbey Bank). It is difficult to see why she would be calling that number at all.

I have some other responsibilities to tend to, and I won't be able to respond for about a week.

 

[Amber29]

Double post

 

[Amber29]

IIRC the testimony about time of the meal gave a range of values. 6:30 is at the late of the range. Even so, that would be at least 5 hours to reach the TOD envisioned by Mignini or Massei. My recollection is that they had dessert around 7:45, but I might be wrong. From what I can gather (this is not my area of expertise), the stomach is able to work in a segmented or compartmentalized fashion, so that food which enters later behaves separately from food consumed earlier. If you are claiming that the phone was definitely at the cottage at 10:13, then we will have to agree to disagree. It connected with a tower that was about ten times more distant than the tower usually used. It is difficult to see why Meredith would call the very first number in her stored phone numbers and not use the country code (Abbey Bank). It is difficult to see why she would be calling that number at all.

I have some other responsibilities to tend to, and I won't be able to respond for about a week.

I have no expertise there either. Only I think the stomach contents aren't reliable for narrowing down the TOD or we'd have a shorter time range.

That's not what I'm saying about the 10:13 only that it surely wasn't in Lana's garden where it was thrown.

I can see Meredith accidentally calling the first contact in her phone. I've said before my name is amber and I'm the first in many people's contacts. I have gotten LOTS of accidental calls from people who have me in their phones.

 

[Katody]

I have no expertise there either. Only I think the stomach contents aren't reliable for narrowing down the TOD or we'd have a shorter time range.

That's not what I'm saying about the 10:13 only that it surely wasn't in Lana's garden where it was thrown.

I can see Meredith accidentally calling the first contact in her phone. I've said before my name is amber and I'm the first in many people's contacts. I have gotten LOTS of accidental calls from people who have me in their phones.

When taken isolated it may be accidental. We need to look at the evidence globally. There is one "accidental call", another cancelled call, and minutes later the phone connects to a very distant tower receiving an MMS. It happens that the distant tower is optimal for the Parco Sant'Angelo, a location on the way to Guede place, dark and empty during the cold November night.

An unusual coincidence, or a meaningful evidence telling a certain story?

 

[otto]

What proof do you have for TOD? I thought the ME didn't give a specific TOD only a range of hours.

That's my understanding as well. Stomach contents are known to be most unreliable when determining time of death, but I have seen some discussion about it as though it is meaningful.

 

[otto]

There are two strong, independent lines of evidence: the various activities related to Meredith's cellphones (briefly summarized earlier today) and the lack of anything in Meredith's duodenum. The hypothesis that nothing will pass into the duodenum in 5.5 hours (Mignini and Massei are responsible for this idea) is close to impossible. Beyond those two, there are all of the things that Meredith did not do but would have been expected to do upon her arrival home, such as call her mother again, remove her jacket, sent texts or emails, attend to damp laundry, etc.

Everything I've read states that stomach contents are unreliable in terms of determining time of death (I have linked articles to that effect in the past). Is there new research stating that stomach contents can be a reliable method for determining time of death? If so, where might I find that?

 

[Katody]

Everything I've read states that stomach contents are unreliable in terms of determining time of death (I have linked articles to that effect in the past). Is there new research stating that stomach contents can be a reliable method for determining time of death? If so, where might I find that?

<modsnip>

http://www.scopemed.org/?mno=40697

In present study the identifiable semi-digested food particle were found more commonly in those persons who died 0-2 hours after last meal

The rate of gastric emptying varies in man from 2.5 to 6 hours.

There were identifiable stomach contents from the meal described by witnesses. Gastric emptying hadn't even started. That makes the TOD placed inside the interval between Meredith's arrival at 21:00 and the broken car incident much more probable than the other, after 23:30.

It's even before we globally consider the rest of evidence, like the phone activity.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

That's my understanding as well. Stomach contents are known to be most unreliable when determining time of death, but I have seen some discussion about it as though it is meaningful.

The argument I presented hinges on the lack of contents in the duodenum and the fact that Meredith ate a meal at a reasonably well defined time. The actual contents of the stomach are not relevant. There are references to journal articles in the link I provided.