NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[walkingdeadgirl]

Lolacat, interesting about "ghosting". I don't know how anyone could do that now, though. 40 years ago, you sure could. 100 years ago you could just slip in and out of societies and no one would have any idea or any easy way of verifying you are who you say you are. And if you had access to a printing press, you could manufacture your own documents and no one would have a clue in the world that you aren't who you say you are.

I don't think you can do that now. I guess you could, but you'd be stuck with taking jobs that pay you without knowing your social security number. So you could mow lawns or clean houses.

With a "ghosted" birth certificate, you would just apply for a replacement social security card.

 

[Lolacat]

Lolacat, interesting about "ghosting". I don't know how anyone could do that now, though. 40 years ago, you sure could. 100 years ago you could just slip in and out of societies and no one would have any idea or any easy way of verifying you are who you say you are. And if you had access to a printing press, you could manufacture your own documents and no one would have a clue in the world that you aren't who you say you are.

I don't think you can do that now. I guess you could, but you'd be stuck with taking jobs that pay you without knowing your social security number. So you could mow lawns or clean houses.

Yes, I dont think it would be possible now. Not sure about 10 years ago though. It must depend very much on how well agencies communicate with other. It does still happen apparently, but instead of taking on the dead person's identity for life, now, criminals use the identity to apply for credit cards and obtain money. Then, before the agencies have a chance to cross check they run again. So they never use it long enough for anyone to find them.

 

[walkingdeadgirl]

I still think the best insight Renner would get into this case would be to interview actual people who took off to start a new life. I am not saying that is what Maura did, but if she did, I think it would be helpful to understand the mind of a person who does that.

I think so, too. There is a reason the FBI spent time interviewing serial killers. It is one of the easiest concepts to understand...if you want to understand someone, walk a mile in their shoes.

 

[Lolacat]

That's so interesting. I watched a Disappeared recently where the person actually turned up later, after someone recognized her after seeing the show, but she was able to walk away with nothing and get a job with no I.d. by saying she had fled an abusive boyfriend (this explained why she had nothing), and had lost her I.d. in Katrina. The hotel that had hired her said these were definite "buttons" for them, and they hired her with no proof of anything. Later she was able to obtain fraudulent I.d.. within two years she had a job, I.d., an apartment.

If Maura started a new life and employed this ghosting technique, after this long, she really could be anywhere. (Even Texas.)

There have even been cases of people who have gone missing and have used their OWN social security number but for some reason the police couldn't access their social security records. There was a case where this happened but I cannot recall the name of the missing person who turned up years later! crazy.

 

[Fireweed]

Yes it is true, police do not trace social security numbers in these cases. An American SSN is used for tax purposes. I am not super clear on the ins and outs of this, but when a person goes missing, it is hard for LE to trace them using their SSN. The IRS knows where they are though.

 

[Lolacat]

Yes it is true, police do not trace social security numbers in these cases. An American SSN is used for tax purposes. I am not super clear on the ins and outs of this, but when a person goes missing, it is hard for LE to trace them using their SSN. The IRS knows where they are though.

I wonder why? they can subpoena cell phone records, medical records, bank details etc why not SS records?

 

[Fireweed]

http://www.nampn.org/media/articles/story5.html

But Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said that if Stahr's intention was not to be found, she did things right, including not obtaining a Kentucky driver's license and not having utility bills in her name. Investigators have not said how Stahr traveled or whether she had roommates.

Stahr did pay taxes, but because of federal privacy laws, law enforcement officials do not have access to tax records, IRS spokeswoman Pat Brummer said.

Frank Viera, a Social Security Administration spokesman, said the same laws apply to that agency's records, except in cases of violent crime or fraud involving a government program. And there was never any proof Stahr was a victim of violence.

Mange said that lack of access is a source of frustration to law enforcement officials.

 

[JeannaT]

With a "ghosted" birth certificate, you would just apply for a replacement social security card.

You wouldn't get one, though - the SS office would have that SSN listed as "deceased".

My aunt died in September and someone tried to open credit in her name first week of October and the credit line was immediately denied - "SSN belongs to a deceased person".

 

[deca]

I think we have to consider the life circumstances of people who start over and see if MM fits the bill.

If you are working a min wage job, living in a crummy apartment, no car, buy clothes at garage sales, etc. running away and starting over will probably mean little or no lifestyle change except socially.

If you were raised middle class, would you be willing to do that? Most people I know deeply fear living an insecure and risky lifestyle and wouldn't voluntarily give up everything to start new if it meant living like that.

 

[Lolacat]

http://www.nampn.org/media/articles/story5.html

That makes sense. If there is no sign of criminal activity then they have no right to access them.

 

[JeannaT]

That makes sense. If there is no sign of criminal activity then they have no right to access them.

Right. But at some point, they'll have to declare Maura dead because someone will die and she will be a rightful legal heir if living.

Once the family attempts to declare her dead, they'll have access to her SSN activity and other private things in the determination of whether she is deceased.

I don't know why Fred doesn't attempt to declare her dead right now, as painful as that would be.

 

[Fireweed]

MM could easily be alive and well and using her own social security number. I got pulled over for speeding last fall. I had not been pulled over by the cops or gotten a ticket in 15 years before that point. I am always very careful about not speeding (I thought I was in a 55 but I was actually in a 45).

I think if a person was careful enough, they could actually get by without having a driver's license.

 

[Fireweed]

Right. But at some point, they'll have to declare Maura dead because someone will die and she will be a rightful legal heir if living.

Her mother did die and MM was mentioned in the obit. Renner ought to get Laurie Murrays probate records (those are totally public), and see if maybe Maura's share was put in a trust account or something.

 

[Lolacat]

Right. But at some point, they'll have to declare Maura dead because someone will die and she will be a rightful legal heir if living.

Once the family attempts to declare her dead, they'll have access to her SSN activity and other private things in the determination of whether she is deceased.

I don't know why Fred doesn't attempt to declare her dead right now, as painful as that would be.

From wikipedia:

If someone disappears, those interested can file a petition to have them declared legally dead. They will have to prove by the criteria above that the person is in fact dead. There are constitutional limitations to these procedures: The presumption must arise only after a reasonable amount of time has elapsed. The absent person must be notified; courts permit claimants to be notified by publication. “Adequate safeguards concerning property” provisions must be made in the case that an absent person will show up. There are some states that require those who receive assets of the missing person's to return them if the person turned out to be alive. If a person is declared dead, when missing, their estate will be distributed as if they were deceased. In some cases, the presumption of death can sometimes be rebutted, according to Sentell, courts will consider evidence that the absent person was a fugitive from justice, had money troubles, had a bad relationship, or had no family ties or connection to a community as reasons not to presume death.[citation needed]

Maybe he can't?- maybe he doesnt have enough proof she is dead?

 

[JeannaT]

MM could easily be alive and well and using her own social security number. I got pulled over for speeding last fall. I had not been pulled over by the cops or gotten a ticket in 15 years before that point. I am always very careful about not speeding (I thought I was in a 55 but I was actually in a 45).

I think if a person was careful enough, they could actually get by without having a driver's license.

She could be - as that Brandi mentioned earlier was.

I don't think they can check for activity on her SSN without evidence that she's a victim of a crime - and LE isn't giving that to the Murrays.

They have no right to know if Maura is using her SSN, as far as I know, unless they petition to have her declared dead.

 

[Fireweed]

There may not be enough evidence to declare MM dead at this point, I agree.

 

[Fireweed]

I don't think they can check for activity on her SSN without evidence that she's a victim of a crime - and LE isn't giving that to the Murrays.

Actually my takeaway was that they would only pull it if you were the perpetrator of a violent crime or fraud against the government.

Brandi Stahr was very much considered a victim of a murder after she disappeared. Still wasn't enough to run her social.

 

[JeannaT]

From wikipedia:

If someone disappears, those interested can file a petition to have them declared legally dead. They will have to prove by the criteria above that the person is in fact dead. There are constitutional limitations to these procedures: The presumption must arise only after a reasonable amount of time has elapsed. The absent person must be notified; courts permit claimants to be notified by publication. “Adequate safeguards concerning property” provisions must be made in the case that an absent person will show up. There are some states that require those who receive assets of the missing person's to return them if the person turned out to be alive. If a person is declared dead, when missing, their estate will be distributed as if they were deceased. In some cases, the presumption of death can sometimes be rebutted, according to Sentell, courts will consider evidence that the absent person was a fugitive from justice, had money troubles, had a bad relationship, or had no family ties or connection to a community as reasons not to presume death.[citation needed]

Maybe he can't?- maybe he doesnt have enough proof she is dead?

I don't know. I thought he could, based on her being absent more than 7 years. So what DO they do if her parents die? Doesn't she have a brother? Does her part of the estate just go nowhere because they don't know where she is? I think at that point they can declare her dead to advance settlement of the estate. I think.

 

[JeannaT]

Her mother did die and MM was mentioned in the obit. Renner ought to get Laurie Murrays probate records (those are totally public), and see if maybe Maura's share was put in a trust account or something.

I would bet the entire estate went to Fred. It's unusual to have a stable married couple not get the entire estate in the case of sole survivorship.

 

[Fireweed]

I don't know. I thought he could, based on her being absent more than 7 years. So what DO they do if her parents die? Doesn't she have a brother? Does her part of the estate just go nowhere because they don't know where she is? I think at that point they can declare her dead to advance settlement of the estate. I think.

Well Maura was merely a beneficiary of her mother's estate, and her only legal heir to her estate would be her father. I highly doubt if MM has any sort of estate worth probating. I highly doubt if she had a life insurance policy.

An estate can still be probated even if a beneficiary is missing. Actually not being able to locate a beneficiary happens regularly. I would be surprised if Laurie did not leave a will, considering that she had had cancer for a long time. She may have written a will after Maura disappeared. It is possible that Laurie's estate, once settled, did not have anything left to distribute to the beneficiaries, or that Maura was not named as one, or that her share was put into a trust account, or that her share was put into the residue of the estate and distributed equally among the remaining heirs.

But a legal declaration of Maura's death would not have to happen in order for the estate of Laurie to have been probated.