Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[MeeBee]

I mistakenly thought it was a documentary thus accurate.

Ah, I see. Don't mean to put you on the spot, or anything. It's understandable.

 

[shane13]

Something similar occurred when Roux questioned Baba. I just listened to Baba's testimony myself because I didn't want to rely strictly on the tweets from courtroom reporters. It's my understanding that Baba and one or two additional guards were inside a truck in front of OP's house when Baba initiated calls to OP. Baba said he "began making calls" to OP when they arrived at his house, but I don't know how many calls. He claims to have initiated the call that became their first conversation, during which OP allegedly said everything was fine. The other guard inside the vehicle (the driver) was able to hear both sides of the conversation and Baba commented to him that something was not right. It sounded to me like Baba asked OP to come downstairs to reassure them everything was fine and that's when the conversation ended. Baba didn't say exactly how the first call ended (which person initiated hanging up) but when referring to the second call he said "the line went dead again", so perhaps OP hung up both times. I don't know. OP then called Baba, cried, and then the line went dead. Roux claims phone records indicate OP placed the first call at 3:21 and Baba's call was placed at 3:24. Baba disputed this (not the exact time of the call, but the fact that OP called him first) and Roux said he would provide documentation of this on Monday. To me, it sounded like Roux was strictly referring to calls made to/from the landline security number which would not be relevant if Baba called from a mobile phone while in his vehicle. But Roux claims Baba's initial statement said he called OP at 3:24. It seems phone records will be very important in this case.

Unrelated to phone calls, but also of interest, is that Baba said he and two other guards saw Stander and his daughter arrive, parking half in the street. Stander and his daughter ran toward OP's house and the three guards ran after them. Stander's daughter opened the door and went inside. Stander stood in the doorway. The guards stood behind Stander. All this coincided with OP walking down the stairs holding Reeva. Baba was shocked and only snapped out of it when Stander's daughter shouted "Oscar!" Baba testified that OP became aware of five people (the Standers and three guards) present in and around the doorway as he was descending the stairs with Reeva. Baba said after snapping out of his shock, he was focused on observing with OP was wearing and that is when Stander asked Baba to go call police and ambulance. The driver of the security truck (Jacob?) was asked to make sure no vehicles were parked at OP's.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

Again excellent.
Thank you Zinn.

 

[Trooper]

The sounds of a cricket bat are part of any South African's life.. a daily thing, in most cases, growing up, at school, at university , on the news each night, in the park next door.. it is not an exotic or peculiar piece of sports equipment as it would appear to be to perhaps Americans.. or Canadians for that matter.. It is a familiar and regular article to both men and women in South Africa.. it is a large part of their weekend, and in a lot of cases their daily conversation. Most SA schools , primary secondary and certainly tertiary have dedicated cricket grounds.. some private schools have cricket scholarships.. it crosses all boundaries, racial, ethnic and gender, Afrikaans, non Afrikaans, Xhosa, Bantu, Cape Coloured, etc.. ..possibly more than Rugby does in SA. There are huge modern stadiums catering to 100,000 people at a time dedicated to cricket in SA.. Wanderers, Newlands , etc.. a fair whack of a SouthAfricans disposable income is laid on tickets to matches, men and women, particularly young women .. I merely put this forward as a generality in forming a conclusion as to who knows what about cricket bat sounds..

it is more likely that not that Dr Stipp, for example , used a cricket bat on a regular basis , that is, daily, for the entirety of his school and university years, and probably his internship and practice years.

 

[Really?]

OT..is there a grief forum on here....

 

[sorrell skye]

OT..is there a grief forum on here....

I think there's one in the private forums - perhaps the Jury Room.

HTH

 

[Madeleine74]

IIRC, "premeditated murder" in SA is different than in the US to my understanding.

In SA, it can be called premeditated if, indeed, Oscar purposely went to get his gun because he intended to use it to kill Reeva. IOW, in mere seconds, he chose to shoot to kill her.

In US, it seems there is more time and intent required. I.e, he planned to kill her before she got there and he purposely locked doors, etc., to fulfill his plan.

I do hope a South African person on this board can clarify that and add info or correct me if I am wrong.

BBM

Not true. In the US premeditation can be formed in mere seconds. Preplanning is not a required element.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

My recollection is that he said the figure was light. Tomorrow I will go through the video of his statement again, unless you have a reported quote from the court proceedings which would save me a great deal of time .

Yes IB , you're right. He says the figure was light. confused again.lol :giggle:

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-focus-reevas-last-moments

 

[gajonka]

I am relisting an earlier post of mine because I think certain points make more sense now that the trial is underway, in particular point 12. The PT infer IMO that OPs story is not quite what they believe to have happened.


THE 13 ALLEGATIONS PROSECUTORS WILL PRESENT TO THE MURDER TRIAL
The 13 witness allegations that state prosecutors will reportedly present in the murder trial next month.
1. Witnesses heard 'talking like fighting' and a woman constantly speaking in a tone that suggested an argument, which stopped after the shots were fired.
2. Two witnesses heard a woman scream before shots were fired.
3. Two other witnesses heard shots and then a woman scream, followed by more shots.
4. Pistorius's online activity at home undermines the picture of a loving couple spending time together. On Valentine's Day.
5. The number of shots, their grouping and their trajectory indicate Pistoritus intended to kill the person behind the closed bathroom door.
6. The position and condition of the gun in the bathroom.
7. Pistorius got a gun and shot through the closed door without finding out who was behind it or whether or not he was in danger.
8. Steenkamp was clothed when she was shot.
9. Steenkamp was standing upright facing the door when she was shot.
10. Steenkamp had something to eat hours before she was killed.
11. The presence of the cellphones in the bathroom militates against a version that Steenkamp innocently went to the toilet at the time.
12. The fact and the way in which Pistorius broke down the toilet door.
13. Pistorius's version 'is not reasonably possibly true and it is our case that if rejected by the court the objective facts will prove the murder with direct intent of the deceased'.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-shooting.html

Nice and Neat. You good. I feel like something is missing - the boyfriend- Warren... and Myers the adopted sister (sorta).
But nicely stacked to 13.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes IB , you're right. He says the figure was light. confused again.lol :giggle:

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-focus-reevas-last-moments

Thank you. I wonder if the doctor, when he spoke to him, told Baba he had seen a light figure pass the window? That could be why Baba was so keen to see what Oscar was wearing?

 

[sorrell skye]

Something similar occurred when Roux questioned Baba. I just listened to Baba's testimony myself because I didn't want to rely strictly on the tweets from courtroom reporters. It's my understanding that Baba and one or two additional guards were inside a truck in front of OP's house when Baba initiated calls to OP. Baba said he "began making calls" to OP when they arrived at his house, but I don't know how many calls. He claims to have initiated the call that became their first conversation, during which OP allegedly said everything was fine. The other guard inside the vehicle (the driver) was able to hear both sides of the conversation and Baba commented to him that something was not right. It sounded to me like Baba asked OP to come downstairs to reassure them everything was fine and that's when the conversation ended. Baba didn't say exactly how the first call ended (which person initiated hanging up) but when referring to the second call he said "the line went dead again", so perhaps OP hung up both times. I don't know. OP then called Baba, cried, and then the line went dead. Roux claims phone records indicate OP placed the first call at 3:21 and Baba's call was placed at 3:24. Baba disputed this (not the exact time of the call, but the fact that OP called him first) and Roux said he would provide documentation of this on Monday. To me, it sounded like Roux was strictly referring to calls made to/from the landline security number which would not be relevant if Baba called from a mobile phone while in his vehicle. But Roux claims Baba's initial statement said he called OP at 3:24. It seems phone records will be very important in this case.

Unrelated to phone calls, but also of interest, is that Baba said he and two other guards saw Stander and his daughter arrive, parking half in the street. Stander and his daughter ran toward OP's house and the three guards ran after them. Stander's daughter opened the door and went inside. Stander stood in the doorway. The guards stood behind Stander. All this coincided with OP walking down the stairs holding Reeva. Baba was shocked and only snapped out of it when Stander's daughter shouted "Oscar!" Baba testified that OP became aware of five people (the Standers and three guards) present in and around the doorway as he was descending the stairs with Reeva. Baba said after snapping out of his shock, he was focused on observing with OP was wearing and that is when Stander asked Baba to go call police and ambulance. The driver of the security truck (Jacob?) was asked to make sure no vehicles were parked at OP's.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

:gthanks:

Thank you so much! I was going to review Baba's testimony, but you've saved me the time!

I would also like to add that Dr. Stipp testified to asking Stander if an ambulance had been called, and Stander told him no.

So I think Dr. Stipp arrived, rendered what medical assistance he could, and asked Stander about an ambulance before Stander instructed Baba to phone the police and ambulance.

 

[minor4th]

What is dogmatic insistence in the witness's testimony? A gunshot sounds like a gunshot and a bat hit sounds like a bat. The witness well knows what she heard.
Knowing what exactly she heard and telling that under oath doesn't make her biased . There is zero possibility that they sound the same . So she is very reasonable imo.

Yes, but a gunshot sounds like a cricket bat, and a cricket bat sounds like a gunshot, according to Dr Stipp who heard both.

Insisting that there is zero possibility that they sound the same is dogmatic insistence. You have provided a nice illustration of the concept.

 

[gajonka]

Thanks. This was actually pretty good.

One remarkable coincidence: Phil, years earlier, started talking in a woman's voice! Numerous witnesses.

Remains to be seen re OP. I doubt any of his GFs will say that OP does. And I already commented on the fallacy of a faked panic recording. But we will see or hear.

Hypothetical:​

Reeva tells OP she will stay with him tonight because she has secret plans ( to her ) and will not be spending Valentines day proper with him.

Oscar flips the f&** out. Checks her phone and sees the back and forth with her ex- Warren. He puts on his gun belt, slips gun to holster and confronts her.

She stumps at him, err, I mean, laughs at him. Knowing he can't track her down. He takes out the gun - she begins to scream!!!!!

He threatens her, which pisses her off.

"YOu sick *advertiser censored*. I knew you were pyscho- you and your guns, we are over, we are done with," Reeva says as she runs for safety.

The burn begins... sizzle.... red-hot. She is so hot that if he cannot have her in bed, then no one will have her.

He tracks her to the loo and fires off four shots... knowing all along he has an alibi in place - that tweet he had sent some time ago to secure his safety... an intruder.

This is a man who is unique - and he knows he must stay one step ahead of normal people in order to keep it fair-- or to even gain an edge.

End of Hypothetical​

What do you think, my genius friends?


a) Something similar

b) No, he is innocent.

c) I wish they still behaded those found guilty in the Cape.

Do tell... (smile)

Your admirer, always:

The Gajonka

 

[minor4th]

ALL of the witnesses, who say they heard a woman screaming!!

Do you not even consider it a possibility that it was in fact Oscar screaming - I mean, without even hearing any of the defense evidence or the rest of the state's?

 

[minor4th]

I think muddying the water is exactly what Roux is doing. He neds to introduce enough confusion to argue that OP cannot be found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt

Hence the attempts to catch the witnesses out or browbeat them into changing their testimony or admit they were mistaken; to cause huge confusion about what happened when and who made what phonecalls.

That has occurred to me also

 

[minor4th]

These tactics might work with a jury, but I'm not so sure when there's only a judge, who will likely be wise to such ploys.

I think the fact that this is being presented to the judge instead of a jury is precisely why some of it seems so confusing. All of the documents that Roux refers to and "puts to" the witnesses, the judge already has and they have been admitted as evidence by stipulation. She will review all of the evidence, whether it is discussed by witnesses or not.

This is not what we're used to.

 

[shane13]

On the PM Charge

I am not an attorney, but attorney Gerrie Nel has said that PM charge does not require days, hours or even many minutes or such. It appears to be action based, and/or intent based.

I am paraphrasing or summarizing.

The Pros. has stated that the premeditation here is that an argument occurred in the bedroom, and that Reeva fled to the bathroom. By his own affidavit, Oscar has admitted to arming himself with his gun in the bedroom, and going to the bathroom. State alleges that he armed himself and went after Reeva in the bathroom with the intent to kill her and did kill her. State also alleges Oscar never ascertained that the person in the loo was of any threat to him. [And since we know who was in there, the unarmed Reeva, clearly Oscar never was threatened].

Oscar and DT apparently know the importance of the argument to the PM charge and so Oscar’s new statement several times swears there never was any argument between them that night.

JMOOC

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-online-antics-1.1651226

 

[shane13]

Hypothetical:​

Reeva tells OP she will stay with him tonight because she has secret plans ( to her ) and will not be spending Valentines day proper with him.

Oscar flips the f&** out. Checks her phone and sees the back and forth with her ex- Warren. He puts on his gun belt, slips gun to holster and confronts her.

She stumps at him, err, I mean, laughs at him. Knowing he can't track her down. He takes out the gun - she begins to scream!!!!!

He threatens her, which pisses her off.

"YOu sick *advertiser censored*. I knew you were pyscho- you and your guns, we are over, we are done with," Reeva says as she runs for safety.

The burn begins... sizzle.... red-hot. She is so hot that if he cannot have her in bed, then no one will have her.

He tracks her to the loo and fires off four shots... knowing all along he has an alibi in place - that tweet he had sent some time ago to secure his safety... an intruder.

This is a man who is unique - and he knows he must stay one step ahead of normal people in order to keep it fair-- or to even gain an edge.

End of Hypothetical​

What do you think, my genius friends?


a) Something similar

b) No, he is innocent.

c) I wish they still behaded those found guilty in the Cape.

Do tell... (smile)

Your admirer, always:

The Gajonka

I can't read, any chance you can skip the colors etc.?

 

[minor4th]

"Det Botha said four mobile phones were seized at the property, but none was used to call police or paramedics.

Mr Roux said there was another phone which the defendant had used to call for medical help at 03:20. He had also called a security guard. Det Botha said he had not been told about the other phone."

http://zambianeye.com/archives/18901

Minor4th: To my knowledge, it has never been established that this 5th phone was given up. It was taken from the scene and Botha was chastised for not asking for it. (Not sure how you would expect to recover 5 cell phones from a one-person household with one guest.)

LE may very well have gotten that 5th phone, but I have not seen anything to indicate that.

BTW: Why didn't you call yourself Major3rd?

There is no such thing as a Minor 4th ..so I thought it was a cool name with a play on music. Major 3rd is boring

 

[Trooper]

Do you not even consider it a possibility that it was in fact Oscar screaming - I mean, without even hearing any of the defense evidence or the rest of the state's?

I am not going to consider the possibility that Oscar can and did scream like a woman AND a man simultaneously while shots were being fired.. this would require a bias from me that would render me incapable of distinguishing whether the sun rose in the east or in the west. Since this is what Dr Stipp testified to hearing, I'm inclined to believe that he heard that as he has NO REASON TO CREATE A BLATANT LIE on the stand in a murder trial..

no evidence has been provided by Roux or the poster that Dr Stipp has a record, short or long in his previous life of being a man of confusion and bias and propensity to lie at whim and at will. No evidence provided that Dr Stipp or others have a long and protracted enmity towards Oscar based on documented incidences of malignancy or confrontation.

Can Oscar scream like man, AND a woman AT the same time?? I don't think so.. if any poster does believe that he can, may I respectfully enquire on what foundation this belief rests upon?

 

[MeeBee]

I cannot in any capacity fathom how a cricket bat striking a door can sound anything like a gun firing. My thought is that either Oscar fired twice and we don't know about it, or the sounds didn't sound perfectly identical and Stipp is mistaken about them sounding the same.