Crime Scene Animation by Websleuths Member grayhuze

[grayhuze]

You questioned whether I'd accept it as the truth if Laviolette changed her opinion, saying she'd made a mistake.

I said it's a false analogy because Dr. Horn's opinion is based on actual physical evidence that does not, and cannot, change.

wow, again your analogy was way off. we were debating weather Horn ever remembered talking to Flores and if Flores really mistakenly heard what he did 3 times. Nothing to do with evidence.

 

[cindymac]

wow, again your analogy was way off. we were debating weather Horn ever remembered talking to Flores and if Flores really mistakenly heard what he did 3 times. Nothing to do with evidence.

Er, I didn't make an analogy in my response. You made one in yours, and I pointed out that (a) it was false and (b) why it was false: your analogy does not involve immutable physical evidence.

Would you rather I just say it's false without explaining why?

 

[grayhuze]

Er, I didn't make an analogy in my response. You made one in yours, and I pointed out that (a) it was false and (b) why it was false: your analogy does not involve immutable physical evidence.

Would you rather I just say it's false without explaining why?

nevermind. You don't get it.

 

[grayhuze]

You questioned whether I'd accept it as the truth if Laviolette changed her opinion, saying she'd made a mistake.

I said it's a false analogy because Dr. Horn's opinion is based on actual physical evidence that does not, and cannot, change.

again, you didn't understand the analogy because it wasn't about the facts of the sequencing, it was about weather or not horn didn't remember ever talking to Flores and if Flores really misheard horn Three times. Why is that difficult. This is the second time I have explained the analogy.

 

[grayhuze]

No, I'm not biased. I'm rational, and what you're suggesting is illogical and unfounded - pure speculation.

So you are saying it's not reasonable to believe that Kevin Horn isn't being truthful when he says he doesn't remember ever speaking to Flores, the lead detective in the most important case of Horn's life? You think it's unreasonable to think that it is very unlikely That flores misheard kevin horn 3 times and was wrong about the sequencing for 3 years and nobody filled him in? I think that defies common sense. I guess it's pure speculation as well that Jodi staged the robbery and took the gun right? No, it's common sense

 

[grayhuze]

Do any of you believe that Horn really never did speak to Flores or do you just believe that he doesn't remember? If he didn't, is that reasonable? Medical examiners and the lead detectives communicate frequently about cases, that is how they develop theories. If horn doesn't remember speaking to Flores but did, is it then reasonable to assume that the person who does remember the conversations got it wrong all the times they discussed sequencing?

 

[grayhuze]

We all know Jodi planned the murder. She stole the gun, rented the car at a place 100 miles or so away and not just any car but specific color as to not attract attention. She also died her hair, brought enough gas to fill her tank. Turned off her cell phone and probably took off her license plates once at Travis' house early in the morning. All these things were done so that she would get away with murdering Travis. She, again, went there to kill Travis. So, after going through all that, why would she then risk it all by stabbing him first knowing that a big guy like Travis would survive the stab and fight for his life? Knife first makes no sense given the premeditation factors and effort. What makes more sense is that Jodi forced Travis to sit in the shower and shot him in the head to minimize the crime scene dna evidence. Just shoot him and wash him off and leave the house and wash the sheets. She may have originally intended to take the camera but changed her mind when she bled all over the camera. So, she took the time to delete the images from the camera and put the camera in the wash with the sheets hoping that the water would destroy the camera and everything inside. But Travis survived the gunshot and Jodi had to find another way. She too erroneously thought a person would be killed or incapacitated immediately after a gunshot to the head. Jodi then went and got a knife and probably released all her rage including the fact that he spoiled her neat little plan of murder. It was cathartic for her.

 

[geevee]

1. jodi stole the gun to use to kill Travis.
2. Travis is seated in the last photos in a position that matches the downward angle of the gunshot.
3. Kevin Horn told Flores and is mentioned on the supplemental report that Travis would not have been immediately incapacitating.
4. Flores said "we believe the gunshot was first" in the 48 hour special in 2008.
5. 2008 at the autopsy Flores says he was told the gunshot was first
6. Flores testified that in 2009 and I believe 2010 or 11 was told that Travis would not have been immediately incapacitating
7. Horn said at trial that Travis would not have been immediately incapacitating but then looked at juan and then changed it.
8. 2011 Jodi changed to self defense so now sequencing became important as testified by Flores.9. At trial, Horn says he can not remember ever speaking to Flores about the case.
10 flores says he wasn't inaccurate but was mistaken about what he thought Horn told him.
why? To create a counter argument to jodi so that sequencing would be the debate not what happened after the gunshot.
Had the prosecution accepted the gunshot as being first then Jodi would be closer to her version being accepted. Her problem all
along were the premeditation factors. this is how I see it.

anyhow, this is how I see it. Until proven otherwise.

BBM

She changed to self defense at least as early as 10/26/2010, as that's the date of the 'proposal' sent to the prosecution threatening to 'expose Travis' if they didn't accept a plea to 2nd degree murder (but I believe it was months before). I think once Nurmi was on the case that he (along with Samuels, according to testimony) approached her with the self defense angle and tried to match it as close as they could to what the prosecution was alleging in the sequence. They knew LE/prosecution had plenty of facts and evidence to prove that so they had to use what prosecution had but twist it into self defense.

Nurmi was plenty mad, and filed mistrial motions because the State changed its sequence, after all the trouble they went to to craft a story that used the State's sequences (and then 'fog' the rest as the knife part just couldn't be explained away in any self defense fashion once she'd shot and disabled him). Once the State changed their sequence it made the defense sound even worse, who stabs a guy more than 20 times and tries to cut his head off after they've already disabled him with a bullet to the head and could flee to safety?

I haven't found anything I can point to as to why the State changed their sequence theory, the bullet casing was always lying on top of the blood puddle seeming to be clean on top, the autopsy had been done and report issued long before, while the State was still going with gunshot first (regardless of what Flores knew and when he knew it), I hope once this is over and all of the sealed stuff is released we may know exactly why, but right now there are just too many holes because of everything that's been sealed to know for sure.

 

[grayhuze]

BBM

She changed to self defense at least as early as 10/26/2010, as that's the date of the 'proposal' sent to the prosecution threatening to 'expose Travis' if they didn't accept a plea to 2nd degree murder (but I believe it was months before). I think once Nurmi was on the case that he (along with Samuels, according to testimony) approached her with the self defense angle and tried to match it as close as they could to what the prosecution was alleging in the sequence. They knew LE/prosecution had plenty of facts and evidence to prove that so they had to use what prosecution had but twist it into self defense.

Nurmi was plenty mad, and filed mistrial motions because the State changed its sequence, after all the trouble they went to to craft a story that used the State's sequences (and then 'fog' the rest as the knife part just couldn't be explained away in any self defense fashion once she'd shot and disabled him). Once the State changed their sequence it made the defense sound even worse, who stabs a guy more than 20 times and tries to cut his head off after they've already disabled him with a bullet to the head and could flee to safety?

I haven't found anything I can point to as to why the State changed their sequence theory, the bullet casing was always lying on top of the blood puddle seeming to be clean on top, the autopsy had been done and report issued long before, while the State was still going with gunshot first (regardless of what Flores knew and when he knew it), I hope once this is over and all of the sealed stuff is released we may know exactly why, but right now there are just too many holes because of everything that's been sealed to know for sure.

The only thing the prosecution has is a cranial bleeding and the bullet on the blood. That is why the blood spatter "expert" was so sure about it's meaning when that can't be stated as fact. You can't say that "bullet shell on blood means gunshot was last" You can say that is a possibility. Yes, late 2010 was the first time. Does anyone Believe Horn when he says he has never heard of anyone not being incapacitated by a gunshot to the head. There are so many case, just doing a little research would shot that it happens, especially with small caliber weapons. You won't find anything that points to why they changed their mind. What they are doing is saying they never changed their mind and that Flores just misheard Horn and Horn doesn't remember anything about that. You can't argue against ones memory. BS.

 

[geevee]

The only think the prosecution has is a cranial bleeding and the bullet on the blood. That is why the blood spatter "expert" was so sure about it's meaning when that can't be stated as fact. You can't say that "bullet shell on blood means gunshot was last" You can say that is a possibility. Yes, late 2010 was the first time. Does anyone Believe Horn when he says he has never heard of anyone not being incapacitated by a gunshot to the head. There are so many case, just doing a little research would shot that it happens, especially with small caliber weapons. You won't find anything that points to why they changed their mind. What they are doing is saying they never changed their mind and that Flores just misheard Horn and Horn doesn't remember anything about that. You can't argue against ones memory. BS.

Well, it's in the minute entry that I linked a couple days ago that during the evidentiary hearing (in August '09) the State was alleging gunshot first to support the Notice of Intent To Seek the Death Penalty on the cruelty factor (in which they succeeded) - it seems to me that during that hearing *everyone* was in agreement with the gunshot first theory. I don't know why the sequence was changed, who convinced who to say what when, I haven't seen those facts presented anywhere (aside from what was in testimony during Trial #1), only that at some point after '09 and before trial, the State did change its sequence.

 

[grayhuze]

interesting. do you have that image again. I missed it. Right so after the autopsy and the bullet found on blood they went with gunshot first. Did the evidence change after that? NO. People are allowed to change their mind over time, but then quesions would arise as to why the findings were gun first for so long then were changed. So, because of the ambiguous autopsy, it was easy to change theories and pretend that is what they believed all along when we know that isn't true. Horn just can't remember and Flores was inaccurate but was mistaken on what he heard all those times. This way it preserves Horn's integrity and lowers Flores' but he isn't the Medical Examiner so his character was more expendable. This is my opinion and I am 99 percent sure in my mind. Obviously others think quite differently.

 

[geevee]

Yeah..I know the photo well. It's not a bare foot it is a foot with a dark sock on it.
View attachment 69708
It's odd that your image blocks out exactly only her foot off to the side.
here is a video I made to help you understand what you are looking at better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB7DbaZ6qX
yes the shoe isn't a sock. I didn't have a sock but the position of the foot is correct.

BBM

I answered this post last night but I wanted to add the picture that I got the crop I posted above from, I watched so much of the videos looking for better images of the pictures and this was one of the best, and one of the reasons I'm very much looking forward to the pics being released after trial. There is so much saturation and darkness in the pics JM showed during his CIC but later on the projector was adjusted and shows how much clarity there is in the pics (and not to beat a dead horse but you can see the bare foot in the bottom left corner of the monitor in front of Flores even from this distance).

But I didn't want you to think I was playing fast and loose with what I show to back up what I think:


(click pic to make larger)

 

[geevee]

LOL the pic came full size so no need to click it, at least for now, if it shows just the attachment size (as they seem to go back and forth at times), just click it.

 

[geevee]

interesting. do you have that image again. I missed it. Right so after the autopsy and the bullet found on blood they went with gunshot first. Did the evidence change after that? NO. People are allowed to change their mind over time, but then quesions would arise as to why the findings were gun first for so long then were changed. So, because of the ambiguous autopsy, it was easy to change theories and pretend that is what they believed all along when we know that isn't true. Horn just can't remember and Flores was inaccurate but was mistaken on what he heard all those times. This way it preserves Horn's integrity and lowers Flores' but he isn't the Medical Examiner so his character was more expendable. This is my opinion and I am 99 percent sure in my mind. Obviously others think quite differently.

BBM Do you mean the minute entry? Yes, here it is:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3846408.pdf

This is the minute entry from that (8/07/09) evidentiary hearing:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3834618.pdf

Interesting that 3 days after the evidentiary hearing, Nurmi was appointed as one of her attnys:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3857149.pdf

 

[grayhuze]

BBM

I answered this post last night but I wanted to add the picture that I got the crop I posted above from, I watched so much of the videos looking for better images of the pictures and this was one of the best, and one of the reasons I'm very much looking forward to the pics being released after trial. There is so much saturation and darkness in the pics JM showed during his CIC but later on the projector was adjusted and shows how much clarity there is in the pics (and not to beat a dead horse but you can see the bare foot in the bottom left corner of the monitor in front of Flores even from this distance).

But I didn't want you to think I was playing fast and loose with what I show to back up what I think:

View attachment 69768
(click pic to make larger)

I see well Flores' shoulder is blocking the foot. The white stripe is the back of Jodi's pant leg and there is even a zipper there. Her foot is turned to the side. The best image I have is right here.
you can see the crown of his head.

here is a 3d still of what is int the image minus the shoe jodi is wearing. It should just be a sock.

 

[grayhuze]

BBM Do you mean the minute entry? Yes, here it is:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3846408.pdf

This is the minute entry from that (8/07/09) evidentiary hearing:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3834618.pdf

Interesting that 3 days after the evidentiary hearing, Nurmi was appointed as one of her attnys:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3857149.pdf

excellent thanks! So in late 2009, around 1.25 years after the murder they still believed in gunshot first and not immediately incapacitating. So, doesn't this prove that Flores heard exactly what he said he heard?

 

[geevee]

I see well Flores' shoulder is blocking the foot. The white stripe is the back of Jodi's pant leg and there is even a zipper there. Her foot is turned to the side. The best image I have is right here. View attachment 69771
you can see the crown of his head.
View attachment 69772
here is a 3d still of what is int the image minus the shoe jodi is wearing. It should just be a sock.

If you look just above Flores' shoulder you can see that it no longer looks like a legless sock just below the pant hem (as it seems to in the over-saturated picture), it's a bare foot moving rapidly to the left and then going upward.

ETA: Foot is moving left to right, very sorry for the confusion.

 

[geevee]

Does this help?

 

[geevee]

My apologies for saying "to the left" in post 401 (I'll ETA it), the foot is moving from left to the right in the pic.

 

[Wizzy]

You questioned whether I'd accept it as the truth if Laviolette changed her opinion, saying she'd made a mistake.

I said it's a false analogy because Dr. Horn's opinion is based on actual physical evidence that does not, and cannot, change.

I'm going to chime in here, hope it is OK. JMOO- I am open-minded,( I am NOT emotionally attached, and I'm not cold hearted either) and at the same time, I agree with the verdict, Premeditation, murder 1. JA most probably will never see the light of day, unless the verdict is overturned on an appeal. Dr. Horn's typo is a big deal, you have to understand this. He is a professional, so, no excuse for him. I don't believe that he didn't go over his report, at least a couple of times, knowing the world would see this important piece of evidence. The prosecution read the report, the defense read that report, neither found this mistake to my knowledge. This mistake was found in court. Someone pointed out to me that the word NOT was in the report and shouldn't have been. I understand the point, that it could have happened. That isn't a typo. That is a big mistake. It changes the whole report. If this typo, as Dr. Horn says, was all there was, nothing else concerning this, then I would except it, no questions asked. Unfortunately, here is where you have to be open minded, we have to also look at Det. Flores in this subject. He has said the gunshot first several times, his TV interview along with his pre=trial testimony it all matches the report as is, in evidence. Det. Flores also uses the word WE, many times, who is WE? My opinion is, Dr. Horn is the person he talked to. I don't know how Dr. Horn could not remember this (conversations). With all these things together they add up to maybe a appeals issue, or someone examining this issue somewhere down the road. (sigh) That is why it is so important. Example: you have a biopsy, (in simple language) Using Dr. Horns word, typo: The cells tested were NOT cancerous. When the test report should have said: The cells tested were cancerous. Isn't that a big deal? Esp. if it's your report. JMOO it is something we should all think about if you are following this trial.