Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #69 *Appeal Verdict*

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Yes I see that. It's the accusation of being a pathological liar I'm taking issue with.

A courtroom is not the usual place to determine such a diagnosis.

Why do you think none of the medical professionals who actually carried out any assessment of his mental state gave any indication of this diagnosis?

I doubt very much they watched the trial and saw and heard his testimony. Other than OP, they only interviewed family and close friends and it is hardly likely they are going to drop him in the mire. Also, as I am absolutely sure you know, people with OP's disposition appear charming and likeable when they need to. Poor Reeva made great allowances for his appalling and selfish behaviour. Look where it got her.
 
I doubt very much they watched the trial and saw and heard his testimony. Other than OP, they only interviewed family and close friends and it is hardly likely they are going to drop him in the mire. Also, as I am absolutely sure you know, people with OP's disposition appear charming and likeable when they need to. Poor Reeva made great allowances for his appalling and selfish behaviour. Look where it got her.

As an example of his outrageous lying….

In 2012 Pistorius told the Sunday Times and tweeted to his fans to the affect ‘I drive a McLaren – a gift I got for myself for this Christmas and the next one’.

Only when it came to declaring his assets in the affidavit presented before the court in 2013 no £500,000 McLaren mentioned

Turns out it was a just a demo car belonging to a local dealership.

Lying comes natural to him. He expects people to believe even his most outrageous lies….like ‘I didn’t touch the trigger’ or ridiculous stories where names of witnesess are conveniently forgotten (well at least that got him a laugh in court)
 
thanks. even when, at the time of the shooting the identity of the person behind the door is unknown [i.e. could be either friend or foe].

Private defence is judged objectively rather than subjectively (PPD) so (just on this point) I don't think the conflict you are implying will arise.
 
As an example of his outrageous lying….

In 2012 Pistorius told the Sunday Times and tweeted to his fans to the affect ‘I drive a McLaren – a gift I got for myself for this Christmas and the next one’.

Only when it came to declaring his assets in the affidavit presented before the court in 2013 no £500,000 McLaren mentioned

Turns out it was a just a demo car belonging to a local dealership.

Lying comes natural to him. He expects people to believe even his most outrageous lies….like ‘I didn’t touch the trigger’ or ridiculous stories where names of witnesess are conveniently forgotten (well at least that got him a laugh in court)

kind of childlike and 'terrible' fabrication/storytelling, rather than master criminal-like lies. otherwise they wouldn't be so easy to spot... evidence the incident about the car chase and friend picking him up, or the 'walking around the bed looking anywhere but at the bed'.
 
As an example of his outrageous lying….

In 2012 Pistorius told the Sunday Times and tweeted to his fans to the affect ‘I drive a McLaren – a gift I got for myself for this Christmas and the next one’.

Only when it came to declaring his assets in the affidavit presented before the court in 2013 no £500,000 McLaren mentioned

Turns out it was a just a demo car belonging to a local dealership.

Lying comes natural to him. He expects people to believe even his most outrageous lies….like ‘I didn’t touch the trigger’ or ridiculous stories where names of witnesess are conveniently forgotten (well at least that got him a laugh in court)

Newspaper story again. Where's the proof?

Every bought a car using a loan?
 
Newspaper story again. Where's the proof?

Every bought a car using a loan?

....Exactly, there is no proof one way or the other.....the benefit of doubt should of been decided and the case closed......to condemn someone there has to be at least the minimum of proof, i'd go further to say that Pistorius has a case before the con court.....his rights have been abused in that an incoherent judgement was made, split over two courts......
 
Private defence is judged objectively rather than subjectively (PPD) so (just on this point) I don't think the conflict you are implying will arise.

subjectively:
there is an open window, i think there may be an intruder...
there is an open window, oh my girlfriend may have opened it...
at the point of the shooting it is subjective.

only if the intruder is identified pre-shooting is it objective. so, after that, if what follows is a dead intruder - only then pd. if there is a dead gf...

essence of schroedingers cat.

pd or ppd or murder, i think the real problem lies with the "shoot first/find out who is behind the door later" approach*. rather than the "find out who is behind the door first/act accordingly" approach.


*if it even went down remotely like this.
 
I agree -- but my point is that, in technical terms, the DE conviction means that the identity of the deceased shouldn't matter. What matters is that the accused knowingly acted in an unlawful manner and failed to meet the standards of PPD. The part of Masipa's decision that accepted that it was "reasonably possible" that OP believed an intruder was present has not been overturned, so the SCA is obliged to rule on DE vs. CH on the assumption that Oscar legitimately thought Reeva was in bed and an intruder was in the bathroom.

That he turned out to be mistaken in the identity of the person in the toilet is no longer at issue. If a person uses lethal force on what appears to be an armed assailant, he or she will likely have a valid self-defense claim even if it turns out the gun was fake, or that the whole thing was a supremely ill-advised prank and the assailant was actually the person's best friend wearing a mask and toting a realistic-looking water pistol. What matters is that the accused acted on a reasonable (if mistaken) belief that his or her life was in danger.

Similarly, if it it is NOT legitimate self-defense to shoot an intruder through a bathroom door, it shouldn't matter, legally speaking, whether the "intruder" was a gun-toting maniac or a local teenager breaking in on a dare. What matters is that OP acted in a way that was likely to result in the unknown person's death in a situation that does not meet the legal criteria for PPD. His truthfulness matters only to the extent that it led the court to reject his claim that he wasn't intending to kill the person in the toilet.

The point I'm making is that I think that whatever the law actually says, the court DOES seem to be taking the identity of the deceased into account, because it seems clear to me that Oscar would not be facing the same kind of penalty if the person he had killed had indeed been an armed intruder. Personally, I'm glad that take these kinds of things into account -- but it is also important, I think, to acknowledge that that is what is happening. Instead, the SCA is framing its decision AS IF the person who actually killed an armed intruder under the same circumstances would be equally guilty, and I don't think that is true in any practical sense.

I can't agree that Pistorius has been treated harshly or that a verdict of DE is the State's consolation prize for failing on DD.

Had there been an armed intruder in the bathroom, Pistorius's credibility wouldn't have been shot to pieces.

When Masipa made a finding that it was reasonably possibly true that Pistorius had believed an intruder was in the toilet, she omitted to make a finding on unlawful intent. As a result, the door was left wide open for the SCA to find that he must have known that he was not entitled to kill the person behind the door, based on their assessment of the evidence, and, indeed, hers.

Had they found him to be an honest witness, IMO, they may well have been more sympathetic and made a finding that he should have known that his conduct in firing four high calibre bullets into a confined space was unlawful, (CH); however, given that they found his evidence to be unreliable, they drew the conclusion, quite justifiably, in my opinion, that he intended to kill and must have known that he was behaving unlawfully, (DE).

Whatever the academics may have to say about the legal position, the bottom line is that it is for the Court to assess credibility and this is exactly what the SCA did, within their own, fairly narrow, remit. Put simply, they didn't accept that he was so scared that he thought he was entitled to fire, which, is, in fact, a pretty accurate assessment of the evidence, IMO.

And, in practice, I don't think this case sets a dangerous precedent for real intruder cases either because, in such cases, the perpetrator is very likely to be able to provide a much better evidenciary foundation to support his or her erroneous belief than the wood moving sound and open window.
 
This was one of the Newspapers who complained that OP had lied to them.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...used-deceit-repeatedly-lied-article-1.1755052
South African paper accuses Oscar Pistorius of serial deceit: ‘He repeatedly lied’
99.99% of us know he is a thoroughly dishonest person who cannot tell the truth if the truth might affect him negatively. He is always out for himself, selfish through and through. I find the refusal to accept he's a liar quite amusing.
 
99.99% of us know he is a thoroughly dishonest person who cannot tell the truth if the truth might affect him negatively. He is always out for himself, selfish through and through. I find the refusal to accept he's a liar quite amusing.

But you can’t call him a liar because you are not an ‘expert’ Accoding to some only those very clever experts at Westkoppies are qualified to diagnose him as a liar. But he very cleverly fooled them so they didn’t spot it so that’s that then.

Armchair opinions even if they are obvious don’t count :)
 
Oh dear, his lying gets everywhere.

Now just waiting for the usual suspects to jump to his defence

It will probably be ‘trashy newspaper story’ or similar

We shall see


Yes, it will be another trashy newpaper story I am sure. Quite strange that given there is so much coverage, including during the trial, it must have been quite a shock to the pistorians to then hear him admit he pulled the trigger in the restaurant episode after swearing it never happened. Says it all really.
 
But you can’t call him a liar because you are not an ‘expert’ Accoding to some only those very clever experts at Westkoppies are qualified to diagnose him as a liar. But he very cleverly fooled them so they didn’t spot it so that’s that then.

Armchair opinions even if they are obvious don’t count :)

Thank you for that. It made me laugh out loud!
 
But you can’t call him a liar because you are not an ‘expert’ Accoding to some only those very clever experts at Westkoppies are qualified to diagnose him as a liar. But he very cleverly fooled them so they didn’t spot it so that’s that then.

Armchair opinions even if they are obvious don’t count :)

BIB

I tend to think this type of pedantic response happens when someone feels 'on the back foot'.
 
Yes, it will be another trashy newpaper story I am sure. Quite strange that given there is so much coverage, including during the trial, it must have been quite a shock to the pistorians to then hear him admit he pulled the trigger in the restaurant episode after swearing it never happened. Says it all really.
BIB - Haha. I don't even remember if a single supporter commented on that last-minute admission. Probably not, as it makes the killer appear devious and we can't have that. I wonder if it was last minute because he was fighting with Roux till the death to protect his lie before finally realising he had no choice but to admit he fired a gun that couldn't have fired itself? I bet Roux was pulling his hair out. Can you see him willingly admitting to doing something he'd denied doing for so long? Zero credibility. Zero redeeming features. Pinocchio with a gun.
 
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