Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[singularity]

Believing in and promoting this mythological intruder with a stun gun and a cigar does not do any justice to JBR it only serves to exonerate the family.
!

How's this for exonerating the family by mentioning cigars.....

From Arndt's detective supplemental report....

I again asked John if he could think of anyone who might be a possible suspect in this investigation. John told me he could only think of two persons from Access Graphics who might be considered a suspect. John had previously given me the name of one of these individuals. The other person was a man who had been fired from Access Graphics approx. three years ago. John told me that he had talked to the person in charge of Human Resources at Access Graphics.

John had asked if potential employees could be asked the question of whether or not they smoked. John was told this question could be asked.The male employee was asked this question. The male employee stated that he was not a smoker. After the male employee was hired it was discovered that he was a smoker. John said the man was fired because he had lied on his application, not because he was a smoker.

-----------

That report is dated Jan. 7th.....13 days after her murder. Nobody knows anything about cigars at that point except the Ramseys and LE. During his conversation with Arndt, he's planting seeds for suspects and just so happens to mention an issue with one of them that involves smoking. He could have easily told her that story without including the mention of the employee being a smoker or if potential employees are smokers or nonsmokers.

John tried to distance himself from that second cigar box in the wine cellar during the Smit/Kane interview. With Arndt, he's planting seeds by letting her know one of his ex employees who hates him just so happens to be a smoker.

Why is that? If the cigars are irrelevant, why is John tap dancing around them like Fred Astaire and Patsy going so far as to say neither her or John smoke when we know for a fact that they do?

 

[UKGuy]

How's this for exonerating the family by mentioning cigars.....

From Arndt's detective supplemental report....

I again asked John if he could think of anyone who might be a possible suspect in this investigation. John told me he could only think of two persons from Access Graphics who might be considered a suspect. John had previously given me the name of one of these individuals. The other person was a man who had been fired from Access Graphics approx. three years ago. John told me that he had talked to the person in charge of Human Resources at Access Graphics.

John had asked if potential employees could be asked the question of whether or not they smoked. John was told this question could be asked.The male employee was asked this question. The male employee stated that he was not a smoker. After the male employee was hired it was discovered that he was a smoker. John said the man was fired because he had lied on his application, not because he was a smoker.

-----------

That report is dated Jan. 7th.....13 days after her murder. Nobody knows anything about cigars at that point except the Ramseys and LE. During his conversation with Arndt, he's planting seeds for suspects and just so happens to mention an issue with one of them that involves smoking. He could have easily told her that story without including the mention of the employee being a smoker or if potential employees are smokers or nonsmokers.

John tried to distance himself from that second cigar box in the wine cellar during the Smit/Kane interview. With Arndt, he's planting seeds by letting her know one of his ex employees who hates him just so happens to be a smoker.

Why is that? If the cigars are irrelevant, why is John tap dancing around them like Fred Astaire and Patsy going so far as to say neither her or John smoke when we know for a fact that they do?

singularity,
The cigars are irrelevant, i.e. JonBenet did not smoke, BR did not smoke. JR is in the business of inventing an intruder, so the cigars help to play that role.

The parents simply lie whenever it suits their purpose, JR does it, PR does it, the cigars are another example.

Just because JR says something it does not follow it is factually correct.

I loved the moment in a recent documentary when an interviewer said to JR but the True Bills said you were charged with ... etc.

JR replies with feigned disbelieve really I was not aware of that, or words to that effect.

You better believe the R's lie through their teeth including BR!

.

 

[singularity]

singularity,
The cigars are irrelevant, i.e. JonBenet did not smoke, BR did not smoke. JR is in the business of inventing an intruder, so the cigars help to play that role.

Santa must have gave me a lobotomy last night because I fail to understand how items the Ramseys own help invent an intruder.

There were two boxes of cigars down there. He clearly cops to owning the Cubans and how he got them(admits to a felony in the process of doing so) yet wont cop to the second box.This is also one of two items Fleet zeroed in on when he went back down to the wine cellar. I doubt its because he had an epiphany that an intruder brought a box of cigars he forgot to take home with him.

The parents simply lie whenever it suits their purpose, JR does it, PR does it, the cigars are another example.

Just because JR says something it does not follow it is factually correct.


You better believe the R's lie through their teeth including BR!

In my post you quoted, I said they're both lying so obviously I would agree with this.

 

[UKGuy]

Santa must have gave me a lobotomy last night because I fail to understand how items the Ramseys own help invent an intruder.

There were two boxes of cigars down there. He clearly cops to owning the Cubans and how he got them(admits to a felony in the process of doing so) yet wont cop to the second box.This is also one of two items Fleet zeroed in on when he went back down to the wine cellar. I doubt its because he had an epiphany that an intruder brought a box of cigars he forgot to take home with him.

In my post you quoted, I said they're both lying so obviously I would agree with this.

singularity.
BBM: With epiphanies and lobotomies set to one side, I rest my case.

.

 

[otg]

(bbm)

How's this for exonerating the family by mentioning cigars.....

From Arndt's detective supplemental report....

I again asked John if he could think of anyone who might be a possible suspect in this investigation. John told me he could only think of two persons from Access Graphics who might be considered a suspect. John had previously given me the name of one of these individuals. The other person was a man who had been fired from Access Graphics approx. three years ago. John told me that he had talked to the person in charge of Human Resources at Access Graphics.

John had asked if potential employees could be asked the question of whether or not they smoked. John was told this question could be asked.The male employee was asked this question. The male employee stated that he was not a smoker. After the male employee was hired it was discovered that he was a smoker. John said the man was fired because he had lied on his application, not because he was a smoker.

-----------

That report is dated Jan. 7th.....13 days after her murder. Nobody knows anything about cigars at that point except the Ramseys and LE. During his conversation with Arndt, he's planting seeds for suspects and just so happens to mention an issue with one of them that involves smoking. He could have easily told her that story without including the mention of the employee being a smoker or if potential employees are smokers or nonsmokers.

John tried to distance himself from that second cigar box in the wine cellar during the Smit/Kane interview. With Arndt, he's planting seeds by letting her know one of his ex employees who hates him just so happens to be a smoker.

Why is that? If the cigars are irrelevant, why is John tap dancing around them like Fred Astaire and Patsy going so far as to say neither her or John smoke when we know for a fact that they do?

(rsbm)

There were two boxes of cigars down there. He clearly cops to owning the Cubans and how he got them(admits to a felony in the process of doing so) yet wont cop to the second box.This is also one of two items Fleet zeroed in on when he went back down to the wine cellar. I doubt its because he had an epiphany that an intruder brought a box of cigars he forgot to take home with him.

You know, singularity, I'm beginning to think there is more to this cigar business than we are aware of. Everyone noticed in one of the previews to (I think) the CBS documentary in which they tried to recreate the house down to the smallest detail that they showed what appeared to be a cigar lying on the WC floor next to where JonBenet's body was. Both Thomas and Kolar mention one of the cigar boxes in their books. Kolar mentions it twice. I hadn't read Arndt's report you quoted. That just adds a little more suspicion to the mix. Another attempted preemptive move by John?

Here is the passage from Thomas' book:

Smit slowly leafed through notebooks filled with evidence pictures, asking Ramsey if he noticed anything different, un-usual, or out of place. The common theme was that plenty of things were strange. A box of tissues did not belong there, a pillow missing here, dust and dirt disturbed elsewhere. To Ramsey it looked as though the Tupperware container in JonBenét’s bedroom had something in it (the same thing Lou Smit believed). Ramsey’s testimony seemed very well rehearsed. Ramsey almost seemed to know the answers before the questions were asked. A cigar box was out of place, as was his golf bag.
​

Why would John be so certain of it he felt compelled to mention that a cigar box was "out of place?" (Like anyone could notice anything being out of place in that garbage dump of a cellar.)


Kolar thinks it important enough to mention in two different parts of his book about Fleet White picking up a cigar box to look at it (and the duct tape) after JonBenet's body was brought up from the WC:

Despite being instructed by Detective Arndt to stand guard at the top of the basement stairs, Fleet White returned briefly to the Wine Cellar during these events. He picked up the duct tape, touched the blanket that had been wrapped around JonBenét’s body and handled a cigar box in the room.​

...and later in Kolar's book:

Detective Arndt had directed White to stand guard at the top of the basement stairs before moving into the living room with JonBenét. For unknown reasons, he again went to the basement and took a quick look around the Wine Cellar. He told investigators that he handled a piece of black duct-type tape from the floor and had also handled a cigar box in the room. Leaving these items behind, he then returned upstairs and awaited the cavalry.
​

Why would Fleet White go back to the WC after JonBenet's dead body had been removed only to examine the duct tape that had been pulled off her lips and a cigar box? Could this be some of the 10% of evidence the public isn't aware of? Was the CBS documentary attempting to hint at it without actually stating it, or maybe they were going to mention it in part of the one-hour that was cut from the original three hours?
I don't see how this helps any particular POV or theory, but it is interesting. :thinking:

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Great post DFF. Sounds like that book is coming in handy. You convinced otg to read it and you've just about sold me on it as well. After I've read the Day After Christmas I'll probably buy it. I want to support those running that Shakedown site. I have a hunch that when some unseen photos surface that sleuths have wanted to see for years, that will be the place...... :worms:

To any lurkers who haven't been to the site before, here it is....

By the way, anyone here who uses social media have a chance to win one of their Jonbenet books.

https://shakedowntitle.com/book-giveaway-jonbenet-ramsey/

Thanks. So have you started reading Day After Christmas and if so, what do you think? I'm thinking of getting that book/that series next.


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[Cranberry]

(bbm)

(rsbm)You know, singularity, I'm beginning to think there is more to this cigar business than we are aware of. Everyone noticed in one of the previews to (I think) the CBS documentary in which they tried to recreate the house down to the smallest detail that they showed what appeared to be a cigar lying on the WC floor next to where JonBenet's body was. Both Thomas and Kolar mention one of the cigar boxes in their books. Kolar mentions it twice. I hadn't read Arndt's report you quoted. That just adds a little more suspicion to the mix. Another attempted preemptive move by John?

Here is the passage from Thomas' book:

Smit slowly leafed through notebooks filled with evidence pictures, asking Ramsey if he noticed anything different, un-usual, or out of place. The common theme was that plenty of things were strange. A box of tissues did not belong there, a pillow missing here, dust and dirt disturbed elsewhere. To Ramsey it looked as though the Tupperware container in JonBenét’s bedroom had something in it (the same thing Lou Smit believed). Ramsey’s testimony seemed very well rehearsed. Ramsey almost seemed to know the answers before the questions were asked. A cigar box was out of place, as was his golf bag.
​

Why would John be so certain of it he felt compelled to mention that a cigar box was "out of place?" (Like anyone could notice anything being out of place in that garbage dump of a cellar.)


Kolar thinks it important enough to mention in two different parts of his book about Fleet White picking up a cigar box to look at it (and the duct tape) after JonBenet's body was brought up from the WC:

Despite being instructed by Detective Arndt to stand guard at the top of the basement stairs, Fleet White returned briefly to the Wine Cellar during these events. He picked up the duct tape, touched the blanket that had been wrapped around JonBenét’s body and handled a cigar box in the room.​

...and later in Kolar's book:

Detective Arndt had directed White to stand guard at the top of the basement stairs before moving into the living room with JonBenét. For unknown reasons, he again went to the basement and took a quick look around the Wine Cellar. He told investigators that he handled a piece of black duct-type tape from the floor and had also handled a cigar box in the room. Leaving these items behind, he then returned upstairs and awaited the cavalry.
​

Why would Fleet White go back to the WC after JonBenet's dead body had been removed only to examine the duct tape that had been pulled off her lips and a cigar box? Could this be some of the 10% of evidence the public isn't aware of? Was the CBS documentary attempting to hint at it without actually stating it, or maybe they were going to mention it in part of the one-hour that was cut from the original three hours?
I don't see how this helps any particular POV or theory, but it is interesting. :thinking:

I'll add this here with the cigar stuff - from JR's 6/98 interview (BBM):

25 it's looks like it's kind of almost upside down on
0274
1 the floor.
2 LOU SMIT: And that's not where you remember
3 it being?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't notice any of the
5 stuff that was in the room. I was surprised I
6 didn't. all I saw was JonBenet.
7 When I put the cigar box in that room, the reason
8 that I set it down here, over here on a paint can
9 or something, and I just stuck it down there
10 because it was humid.
11 LOU SMIT: So it was on a paint can?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was, yeah.
13 LOU SMIT: If you want to look at these,
14 just the photographs on this side.
15 MIKE KANE: How often did you smoke a cigar?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house.
17 And JonBenet would actually get after me if I
18 smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would
19 smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or
20 something like that. So, once or twice a week,
21 maybe.

 

[LifeCitizen]

I voted no.

I'm pretty sure the stun gun was LS's idea.

He met the Ramseys, prayed with them and then after something like 72 hours on the case, decided they were innocent and set out to prove his crazy intruder theory.
Pity about the pineapple dude. You could never explain that beyond it being a 'bugaboo'.

 

[Rott Mom]

Was the stun gun used before or after the supposed intruder fed her pineapple? There was NO stun gun and NO
intruder.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

This is a still from the CBS documentary. The recreation of the WC. I posted this up a few months ago querying what the circled item was and it sure looks like a cigar to me. Why would the CBS peeps make sure to include that item in shot, in the crime scene recreation? It definitely feels like a relevant clue, even if the full details of its relevance haven't been publicly released yet - perhaps for GJ or ongoing investigative reasons.

 

[andreww]

(bbm)

(rsbm)You know, singularity, I'm beginning to think there is more to this cigar business than we are aware of. Everyone noticed in one of the previews to (I think) the CBS documentary in which they tried to recreate the house down to the smallest detail that they showed what appeared to be a cigar lying on the WC floor next to where JonBenet's body was. Both Thomas and Kolar mention one of the cigar boxes in their books. Kolar mentions it twice. I hadn't read Arndt's report you quoted. That just adds a little more suspicion to the mix. Another attempted preemptive move by John?

Here is the passage from Thomas' book:

Smit slowly leafed through notebooks filled with evidence pictures, asking Ramsey if he noticed anything different, un-usual, or out of place. The common theme was that plenty of things were strange. A box of tissues did not belong there, a pillow missing here, dust and dirt disturbed elsewhere. To Ramsey it looked as though the Tupperware container in JonBenét’s bedroom had something in it (the same thing Lou Smit believed). Ramsey’s testimony seemed very well rehearsed. Ramsey almost seemed to know the answers before the questions were asked. A cigar box was out of place, as was his golf bag.
​

Why would John be so certain of it he felt compelled to mention that a cigar box was "out of place?" (Like anyone could notice anything being out of place in that garbage dump of a cellar.)


Kolar thinks it important enough to mention in two different parts of his book about Fleet White picking up a cigar box to look at it (and the duct tape) after JonBenet's body was brought up from the WC:

Despite being instructed by Detective Arndt to stand guard at the top of the basement stairs, Fleet White returned briefly to the Wine Cellar during these events. He picked up the duct tape, touched the blanket that had been wrapped around JonBenét’s body and handled a cigar box in the room.​

...and later in Kolar's book:

Detective Arndt had directed White to stand guard at the top of the basement stairs before moving into the living room with JonBenét. For unknown reasons, he again went to the basement and took a quick look around the Wine Cellar. He told investigators that he handled a piece of black duct-type tape from the floor and had also handled a cigar box in the room. Leaving these items behind, he then returned upstairs and awaited the cavalry.
​

Why would Fleet White go back to the WC after JonBenet's dead body had been removed only to examine the duct tape that had been pulled off her lips and a cigar box? Could this be some of the 10% of evidence the public isn't aware of? Was the CBS documentary attempting to hint at it without actually stating it, or maybe they were going to mention it in part of the one-hour that was cut from the original three hours?
I don't see how this helps any particular POV or theory, but it is interesting. :thinking:

I think Fleet was having suspicion about the Ramsey's from the get go, thats why he went back down there.

I'm intrigued about the possibility of there being a cigar there. Seems to me DNA tests surely would have been done on that and would have shown that it was from a Ramsey or someone else. Either way, I can't imagine either side not using those findings to their advantage. Don't know what to think.

 

[andreww]

This is a still from the CBS documentary. The recreation of the WC. I posted this up a few months ago querying what the circled item was and it sure looks like a cigar to me. Why would the CBS peeps make sure to include that item in shot, in the crime scene recreation? It definitely feels like a relevant clue, even if the full details of its relevance haven't been publicly released yet - perhaps for GJ or ongoing investigative reasons.

Not sure what that is, but it doesn't look like a cigar to me. To me it looks like the brush portion of the paintbrush.

 

[Tortoise]

I think Fleet was having suspicion about the Ramsey's from the get go, thats why he went back down there.

I'm intrigued about the possibility of there being a cigar there. Seems to me DNA tests surely would have been done on that and would have shown that it was from a Ramsey or someone else. Either way, I can't imagine either side not using those findings to their advantage. Don't know what to think.

I did a little research on this, never having smoked a cigar myself. I discovered that it is possible to light a cigar by toasting the end with a flame, and not drawing on the cigar. I'd be willing to bet if there was a cigar at the crime scene there was no saliva dna on it.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Not sure what that is, but it doesn't look like a cigar to me. To me it looks like the brush portion of the paintbrush.

View attachment 106896

It kind of looks like that to me too. But then why would they put it there when we know the broken top of the paintbrush was left in Patsy's paint caddy outside the wine cellar? I could also see a cigar in the image but I still don't understand how a cigar fits into this crime either.


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[andreww]

I did a little research on this, never having smoked a cigar myself. I discovered that it is possible to light a cigar by toasting the end with a flame, and not drawing on the cigar. I'd be willing to bet if there was a cigar at the crime scene there was no saliva dna on it.

And that certainly wouldn't point to an intruder.

 

[andreww]

It kind of looks like that to me too. But then why would they put it there when we know the broken top of the paintbrush was left in Patsy's paint caddy outside the wine cellar? I could also see a cigar in the image but I still don't understand how a cigar fits into this crime either.


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Might be another piece of staging. Cops may have kept it quite just to have a piece of evidence that only the killer would know. If a guy like JMK didn't mention that he smoked a cigar after he killed her, then LE knows he's not the guy.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=106864&stc=1

It's difficult for me to see, judge the scale of
the object in comparison to the black tape.

 

[kanzz]

This is a still from the CBS documentary. The recreation of the WC. I posted this up a few months ago querying what the circled item was and it sure looks like a cigar to me. Why would the CBS peeps make sure to include that item in shot, in the crime scene recreation? It definitely feels like a relevant clue, even if the full details of its relevance haven't been publicly released yet - perhaps for GJ or ongoing investigative reasons.

I don't think it is a crime scene photo. It appears to be a recreation. I might be wrong, of course.

 

[Meara]

I don't think it is a crime scene photo. It appears to be a recreation. I might be wrong, of course.

kanzz, it is a recreation. Have another look at Zoriah's caption.

However, I don't think this is a cigar; certainly not a cigar that was lit or smoked. The wine cellar was a small, damp, well sealed room. If a cigar butt had been left there, the room would have reeked of it, and this would have been noted. It's the kind of detail that would be hard to keep quiet as the smell would have gotten onto the body and in the clothing. Everyone upstairs anywhere near the body would have smelled it.

 

[andreww]

Worth while noting since it is a recreation that if they were going for details, they forgot the floor safe.


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