NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #14

[minazoe]

okay so these Loon Mountain dudes...are they like Maura's age? I can see some cute guys
swoop in. and off she goes.

how often are college girls victimized by male peers?

maybe they went off to party and she thought oh, I'll get out of here and come back in the morning. Hmmm...mOO

 

[embufum]

I try to envision myself in Maura's shoes. It's late in the evening and it's dark and probably the only light is from the barn which I think had a street lamp. The only homes in her immediate view would be the Westman's and the place that they recently searched.

No way Maura is getting into a bus with some guy she can probably barely see other than a silhouette. Think about it, as nice as he may sound how the heck would she know that he really lived up the road? Hey get in my bus I live right up there you can hang out with me and my wife, yeah right. The Westman's house was the closest but if I was Maura I'd probably pick the house next to it which happens to be the one they searched. This house is fairly large and like I said before she may have thought it was a bed and breakfast type place. For some reason Maura's dad got wind very early on that she was buried there. I'd love to know why?

I don't think this is that complicated as people are trying to make it. I think Maura was planning on coming home and just wanted to get away for a bit. I don't think there was a tandem driver. Maybe she was meeting someone at some point but that's debatable.

Keeping this as simple as possible in imo is the best way to go about this. Maura needed to make a call. She wasn't going in the direction of Butch's house since this was too far and she already turned him down and she most likely figures he is calling the police. It makes no sense for her to take a stroll through the woods. It also makes no sense for her to start jogging down the road with a backpack and possibly some alcohol. Maura did NOT want to be confronted by the police so she was not going to take a hike on the side of a road in the dark carrying alcohol after she just wrecked her car.

No matter where Maura would be on the road the police would have stopped her for sure and she'd be busted and that's even if she didn't have alcohol. I think she took the alcohol with her because she knew that the police where coming and the less she had in the car the less trouble she would get into later. Maura was thinking ahead which to me shows she wanted to live.

A possible scenario could look like this. Maura wrecks her car and it's the second time in two days and both times she was drinking. She was already in trouble for theft so she needed to get out of there as fast as possible. Big scary bus driver comes along and offers her a ride but she says thanks but no and lies about AAA. She weighs her options and takes the house that looks the most inviting.

That's the short version but since I'm on a roll I'd like to add a few things that kind of bug me. So Faith Westman said that she saw "someone" in the car who she thought might have been a man smoking a cigarette and her husband says it was a girl and most likely the red dot was from her cellphone. Faith had called 911 along with Butch but before him. She claims that she saw Butch pull up then leave. She says that she momentarily looked away and then when they looked again they saw the police car but Maura was gone.

At 7:27 pm Faith calls 911. At 7:30 Butch pulls up offers Maura help. Faith mentions that she did see Butch talking to Maura and sees him leave saying that Butch was there for about 2 minutes. (accounts vary as to what she actually said, some say 1 to 2 min and some say up to 5). She then mentions a flurry of activity where she sees someone putting on their flashers, gathering up belongings and going to the trunk.

John Marrotte who lived across the street also mentions seeing the trunk lights go on. John lived behind a bunch of trees on the opposite side of the road but at that time of year I'd assume he had a decent view due to the leaves being gone.

It's hard to pin down an exact time that Cecil Smith arrived but from what I can find it was between 3:35 and 7:40. So if Butch left around 7:33 as witnessed by Faith she obviously was still watching Maura since she goes into detail about the flurry of activity after Butch leaves. So we are to believe that Faith, after watching the whole time Maura was out there, seeing Butch pull up and seeing him leave then seeing Maura grab her stuff that she suddenly became disinterested and walked away until she heard a car pull up and that was when Cecil arrived? If this was me I'd be more interested than ever to see what this person was planning on doing since it was obvious Maura was high tailing it out of there. I might have left when Butch pulled up thinking this person got some help from my neighbor but she stayed staring out that window which at that point was mostly out of curiosity. I'm convinced Faith saw Maura walk away and she might have even seen where. If Maura did go to the house that was searched Faith probably had a clear view being that the trees at that time of year would not have obscured her view.

How many people here would stop watching Maura just when things were getting good? Personally I'd go out to help but at the very least I would want to know why this girl is gathering her stuff and where she is planning on going. Is someone coming to get her? Does she know one of the neighbors and is heading that way? I'd assume she isn't going far with all the stuff she grabbed and how fast she was moving. I think Faith knows and she probably was scared to say and still is.

Assuming Maura did end up at that house try to imagine what this neighbor is confronted with. There's a knock on the door, there stands a pretty young girl with a backpack who smells of liquor and is also carrying a fair amount of it on her and has a backpack like she ready to stay the night and party. Once inside all bets are off as to what transpired. One thing is for sure, someone told Fred she was there. How many people would know this?

 

[sony12]

In all honesty I think if any of the surrounding neighbors had anything to do with this case it would have already been solved (or at the very least we would have a much better idea of what happened to her in the hours after the crash than we currently do).

 

[embufum]

In all honesty I think if any of the surrounding neighbors had anything to do with this case it would have already been solved (or at the very least we would have a much better idea of what happened to her in the hours after the crash than we currently do).

You may be more right than you realize.

"When Fred Murray sued the state of New Hampshire to get access to records related to the disappearance of his daughter, it led to court testimony and affidavits from investigators. In defending his office's reluctance to release any info, Assistant AG Jeffrey Strelzin explained that there was a 75% chance that they will prosecute someone based on what they'd found so far."

It does seem that most of the neighbors don't really know each other all that well. In a recent interview with Butch's ex she said that they really didn't know their neighbors other than to say hi.

 

[Nadal]

If Maura did go to the house that was searched Faith probably had a clear view being that the trees at that time of year would not have obscured her view.

How many people here would stop watching Maura just when things were getting good? Personally I'd go out to help but at the very least I would want to know why this girl is gathering her stuff and where she is planning on going. Is someone coming to get her? Does she know one of the neighbors and is heading that way? I'd assume she isn't going far with all the stuff she grabbed and how fast she was moving. I think Faith knows and she probably was scared to say and still is.

Assuming Maura did end up at that house try to imagine what this neighbor is confronted with. There's a knock on the door, there stands a pretty young girl with a backpack who smells of liquor and is also carrying a fair amount of it on her and has a backpack like she ready to stay the night and party. Once inside all bets are off as to what transpired. One thing is for sure, someone told Fred she was there. How many people would know this?

It was a semi-regular thing for accidents to happen at that bend so it's believable that they wouldn't care after they knew Butch was taking care of it because it happened before and it was always uneventful. Faith also didn't have a great view as you mentioned yourself with her and her husband disagreeing with what they saw.

The house was searched and ruled out so what, do you think they missed something or what?

I trust the neighbours accounts. I think they're flawed because all eyewitness testimony is but i don't think they are lying or covering anything up. That would have to involve at least four people knowing about something horrible happening and keeping quiet. Because they were scared of their neighbour? Also Butch moved down to Florida at one point before dying and was interviewed while there i believe, why would he still keep quiet after being so far away from this terrifying neighbour? I don't see it especially since they searched the house.

Good post btw.

 

[Nadal]

You may be more right than you realize.

"When Fred Murray sued the state of New Hampshire to get access to records related to the disappearance of his daughter, it led to court testimony and affidavits from investigators. In defending his office's reluctance to release any info, Assistant AG Jeffrey Strelzin explained that there was a 75% chance that they will prosecute someone based on what they'd found so far."

It does seem that most of the neighbors don't really know each other all that well. In a recent interview with Butch's ex she said that they really didn't know their neighbors other than to say hi.

That could be anybody though. Could be Bill Rausch or what's his name who said he saw her jogging or the Loon Mountain guys. Or it's not about anyone in particular but they believe foul play is most likely since she didn't turn up in their search of the woods and they find the idea that she's alive hard to believe. It's also been suggested that this was just a tactic to ensure they could keep their records private.

 

[minazoe]

another thought on hypothermia ( even though I think the neighbor theory is more likely than others).

so we don't know how hammered she was..people who drink to self medicate often " hunker down" with their booze and get very deep into whatever the trouble is.

maybe she took her booze and walked off not really far but out of sight, hoping the neighbors would lose interest in her and the car.

she could have sat down by a log and finished off a bottle and maybe fell asleep or crawled inside to lay and think and just died from the cold, as had been speculated..not really going off to find a phone or anything, but just was wasted and wanted to continue drinking as she was in an emotional tailspin.

I can see this, and while she should have been findable...maybe its just an odd spot and she was concealed well.

mOO

 

[embufum]

It was a semi-regular thing for accidents to happen at that bend so it's believable that they wouldn't care after they knew Butch was taking care of it because it happened before and it was always uneventful. Faith also didn't have a great view as you mentioned yourself with her and her husband disagreeing with what they saw.

The house was searched and ruled out so what, do you think they missed something or what?

I trust the neighbours accounts. I think they're flawed because all eyewitness testimony is but i don't think they are lying or covering anything up. That would have to involve at least four people knowing about something horrible happening and keeping quiet. Because they were scared of their neighbour? Also Butch moved down to Florida at one point before dying and was interviewed while there i believe, why would he still keep quiet after being so far away from this terrifying neighbour? I don't see it especially since they searched the house.

Good post btw.

Thanks. I'm not sure where you are getting that 4 people would have to be covering up anything. Faith has said before that she and her husband never went outside and that Cecil came to their door and asked where is the girl. John Marrotte said he saw both Faith and her husband walk over to the accident. So that right there is a conflicting statement. Faith seems to have watched the scene of the accident the entire time up until Maura walked away. I'm finding that hard to believe. I'm not even sure how much of her husband actually witnessed since he was supposedly working on his computer and Faith said once she left the window she went to help her husband.

As far as the police missing something, of course it's possible, but it's my opinion that Maura's body could have been moved. On two separate occasions cadaver dogs hit on the same exact spot for the scent of human remains. One of the dogs was the same one used in the Oxygen channel show about Maura. The dog belongs to Deb Ash she is President and Training Officer @ Canine Alert Search Teams. The company trains Police and Fire dogs for search and rescue of cadaver remains. I believe the other company wanted to remain anonymous.

If Maura was ever buried there, there was ample time for her body to be removed but her scent would still remain. I believe it was Strelzin that told Fred the dogs their team used (as in Fred's) hit on a dead rat. If he actually said that to the Murray family then he knows not one thing about cadaver dogs. Not to sound gross but if Maura was buried there at some point wrapping her in plastic would make it a lot easier to move her if there was ever a need. All that would be left behind would be a scent.

 

[embufum]

That could be anybody though. Could be Bill Rausch or what's his name who said he saw her jogging or the Loon Mountain guys. Or it's not about anyone in particular but they believe foul play is most likely since she didn't turn up in their search of the woods and they find the idea that she's alive hard to believe. It's also been suggested that this was just a tactic to ensure they could keep their records private.

What you call a tactic by the police dept. would be them lying under oath. Lets hope that's not the case. If they do have a suspect in mind as they seem to hint to then no it can't just be anybody. Bill was Oklahoma when Maura went missing. I've never heard any credible evidence that puts Bill with Maura after she went missing. Basically Strelzin is saying that she was murdered and there is a good amount of evidence that points to her being murdered. Sadly Fred will most likely never know what info or who this person may be.

 

[Nadal]

Thanks. I'm not sure where you are getting that 4 people would have to be covering up anything. Faith has said before that she and her husband never went outside and that Cecil came to their door and asked where is the girl. John Marrotte said he saw both Faith and her husband walk over to the accident. So that right there is a conflicting statement. Faith seems to have watched the scene of the accident the entire time up until Maura walked away. I'm finding that hard to believe. I'm not even sure how much of her husband actually witnessed since he was supposedly working on his computer and Faith said once she left the window she went to help her husband.

As far as the police missing something, of course it's possible, but it's my opinion that Maura's body could have been moved. On two separate occasions cadaver dogs hit on the same exact spot for the scent of human remains. One of the dogs was the same one used in the Oxygen channel show about Maura. The dog belongs to Deb Ash she is President and Training Officer @ Canine Alert Search Teams. The company trains Police and Fire dogs for search and rescue of cadaver remains. I believe the other company wanted to remain anonymous.

If Maura was ever buried there, there was ample time for her body to be removed but her scent would still remain. I believe it was Strelzin that told Fred the dogs their team used (as in Fred's) hit on a dead rat. If he actually said that to the Murray family then he knows not one thing about cadaver dogs. Not to sound gross but if Maura was buried there at some point wrapping her in plastic would make it a lot easier to move her if there was ever a need. All that would be left behind would be a scent.

4 people would be Faith, her husband, Butch (who was in his bus doing paperwork outside his house which wasn't far from the scene) and Butch's wife who i was imagining he'd tell but disregard her if you want, it's multiple people anyway. John Marrotte too if you believe his statement about Faith and her husband going over to the accident which would mean he was watching. Maura would have to go past all of their houses to get to the one you're talking about so i think several of them would have seen her going to the house, Faith, her husband, Butch and John at least. Even if her husband didn't see it she likely would have told him as we know they discussed the scene from the woman/man mix up.

I guess, it'd be odd that LE didn't find anything there though if she had been buried there, no DNA or anything as they carried out a proper search there from what i read and how long they were in the house. Those dogs are awesome but they're also fallible, so are LE of course but i'd personally bet on LE over the dogs. They said they found absolutely nothing and ruled it out. Especially adding in that i believe the witness statements (while acknowledging that they're flawed like any eyewitness testimony) and think they'd have seen something. There's definitely weirdness connected to that house though and CM so i understand people still being suspicious.

 

[Nadal]

What you call a tactic by the police dept. would be them lying under oath. Lets hope that's not the case. If they do have a suspect in mind as they seem to hint to then no it can't just be anybody. Bill was Oklahoma when Maura went missing. I've never heard any credible evidence that puts Bill with Maura after she went missing. Basically Strelzin is saying that she was murdered and there is a good amount of evidence that points to her being murdered. Sadly Fred will most likely never know what info or who this person may be.

Sure, but i think Jeff knew the Judge would side with him and he wouldn't have to prove it as LE are typically allowed to keep their investigation private even from family. He could have just been saying what he had to to not compromise the investigation. He was right as they've not been compelled to give over the information 12 years later or however long it's been. Plus a 75% of bringing charges means there's a 25% chance they won't, based on that they could claim they say believed the e-mail she left for Bill pointed to him and they were pursuing further evidence against him.

I don't think Bill did it either and have argued against it before here, just pointing out that doesn't mean he was talking about the a-frame house and brought up another few potential suspects whether i believed they were involved or not.

 

[embufum]

4 people would be Faith, her husband, Butch (who was in his bus doing paperwork outside his house which wasn't far from the scene) and Butch's wife who i was imagining he'd tell but disregard her if you want, it's multiple people anyway. John Marrotte too if you believe his statement about Faith and her husband going over to the accident which would mean he was watching. Maura would have to go past all of their houses to get to the one you're talking about so i think several of them would have seen her going to the house, Faith, her husband, Butch and John at least. Even if her husband didn't see it she likely would have told him as we know they discussed the scene from the woman/man mix up.

I guess, it'd be odd that LE didn't find anything there though if she had been buried there, no DNA or anything as they carried out a proper search there from what i read and how long they were in the house. Those dogs are awesome but they're also fallible, so are LE of course but i'd personally bet on LE over the dogs. They said they found absolutely nothing and ruled it out. Especially adding in that i believe the witness statements (while acknowledging that they're flawed like any eyewitness testimony) and think they'd have seen something. There's definitely weirdness connected to that house though and CM so i understand people still being suspicious.

If Maura went the other way we can exclude Butch and his wife. There is speculation that butch was even out there the whole time.

The Marrotte's I believe admitted to not watching much. I think it was more periodically going to the window. Faith on the other hand admits she was in front of her window almost the whole time but really never says when she walked away. If Butch was there say for 2 minutes, Faith actually says exactly in her opinion how long he was there. It doesn't matter how long only that she stood there and saw him pull up and leave. She was standing there from the time she wrecked till she suddenly decided to leave after a flurry of action.

We know nothing of the type of search or any detailed reports of what was done at that house when the LE was there so I can't really remark on this. The searches done by the other two people did I believe show their findings and I'm pretty sure they are available on the net. I have seen some of these findings but I'd have to search to find them.

Not sure how much DNA would be available in dirt and I wonder how they would go about searching for DNA material in this type of scenario.

I've read that the dogs are 95% reliable as long as they are trained properly and they use them a lot to find remains for example if a building has fallen due to an earthquake or something.

I agree about this place it just doesn't sit well with me. One of the past residents as I mentioned before is keeping up on this case as they posted the results of the search on a FB page. To me that just seems odd. Why would you want to bring attention to yourself when most people have never even heard of Maura.

 

[embufum]

Sure, but i think Jeff knew the Judge would side with him and he wouldn't have to prove it as LE are typically allowed to keep their investigation private even from family. He could have just been saying what he had to to not compromise the investigation. He was right as they've not been compelled to give over the information 12 years later or however long it's been. Plus a 75% of bringing charges means there's a 25% chance they won't, based on that they could claim they say believed the e-mail she left for Bill pointed to him and they were pursuing further evidence against him.

I don't think Bill did it either and have argued against it before here, just pointing out that doesn't mean he was talking about the a-frame house and brought up another few potential suspects whether i believed they were involved or not.

I know Renner had said Billy didn't have an alibi I think because he said his phone was unused for 10 days. An older gentleman and his wife that where there for the search vouched for him saying he was with him the whole time. So as far as I can tell there's about a zero chance Billy ever saw Maura again.

 

[PaulR]

I think for Maura to have been picked up by someone, she'd have to have been walking along the road, and that's something that she would have wanted to avoid, because of being intoxicated and running away from the police - she didn't even want to stay with her vehicle.

 

[Nadal]

If Maura went the other way we can exclude Butch and his wife. There is speculation that butch was even out there the whole time.

The Marrotte's I believe admitted to not watching much. I think it was more periodically going to the window. Faith on the other hand admits she was in front of her window almost the whole time but really never says when she walked away. If Butch was there say for 2 minutes, Faith actually says exactly in her opinion how long he was there. It doesn't matter how long only that she stood there and saw him pull up and leave. She was standing there from the time she wrecked till she suddenly decided to leave after a flurry of action.

We know nothing of the type of search or any detailed reports of what was done at that house when the LE was there so I can't really remark on this. The searches done by the other two people did I believe show their findings and I'm pretty sure they are available on the net. I have seen some of these findings but I'd have to search to find them.

Not sure how much DNA would be available in dirt and I wonder how they would go about searching for DNA material in this type of scenario.

I've read that the dogs are 95% reliable as long as they are trained properly and they use them a lot to find remains for example if a building has fallen due to an earthquake or something.

I agree about this place it just doesn't sit well with me. One of the past residents as I mentioned before is keeping up on this case as they posted the results of the search on a FB page. To me that just seems odd. Why would you want to bring attention to yourself when most people have never even heard of Maura.

I need to read Faith's comments again, it's been 3-4 years since i've looked into this case and i've forgot a lot of stuff don't really have the time right now though. Honestly considering Jeff's comments and their reluctance to search the A-Frame House and insistence before they even did the search that they wouldn't find anything, the most likely answer to me is they know what happened but they don't have the evidence to bring charges and they know it had nothing to do with the A-Frame House. If they thought it had anything to do with that house they'd have jumped at the chance to search it and to take that knife but they weren't interested. That to me heavily suggests they have good reason to believe something happened and it was unrelated to the house. Add that to the search turning up nothing and i'm personally satisfied that it's ruled out.

 

[Nadal]

I know Renner had said Billy didn't have an alibi I think because he said his phone was unused for 10 days. An older gentleman and his wife that where there for the search vouched for him saying he was with him the whole time. So as far as I can tell there's about a zero chance Billy ever saw Maura again.

Yeah, Bill sounds like an awful person but i don't believe he harmed her. He may have been one of if not the main reason she took off on the trip considering the e-mail but it's too farfetched that she didn't contact anyone for 3 days after the crash then somehow Bill tracked her down and killed and buried her somwhere she hasn't been found since in such a short space of time.

 

[embufum]

I need to read Faith's comments again, it's been 3-4 years since i've looked into this case and i've forgot a lot of stuff don't really have the time right now though. Honestly considering Jeff's comments and their reluctance to search the A-Frame House and insistence before they even did the search that they wouldn't find anything, the most likely answer to me is they know what happened but they don't have the evidence to bring charges and they know it had nothing to do with the A-Frame House. If they thought it had anything to do with that house they'd have jumped at the chance to search it and to take that knife but they weren't interested. That to me heavily suggests they have good reason to believe something happened and it was unrelated to the house. Add that to the search turning up nothing and i'm personally satisfied that it's ruled out.

I agree you can't rule out that A frame, but Jeff also made the same comment about the basement search. He said that he was sure that they wouldn't find anything but since there were a lot of people wanting it done they did it. How could he be sure? They did a search of the grounds of that same house way back when she went missing. I wonder how that came to be?

 

[cherrymeg]

Yeah, Bill sounds like an awful person but i don't believe he harmed her. He may have been one of if not the main reason she took off on the trip considering the e-mail but it's too farfetched that she didn't contact anyone for 3 days after the crash then somehow Bill tracked her down and killed and buried her somwhere she hasn't been found since in such a short space of time.

I think knowing what we know about Bill now gives a different perspective of their relationship. It also adds a reason she needed to get away. Someone can be emotionally abusive from a distance. She could have gotten into a car thinking she already is dealing with one awful man, what are the chances of meeting another? They are probably higher than people realize.

 

[embufum]

Yeah, Bill sounds like an awful person but i don't believe he harmed her. He may have been one of if not the main reason she took off on the trip considering the e-mail but it's too farfetched that she didn't contact anyone for 3 days after the crash then somehow Bill tracked her down and killed and buried her somwhere she hasn't been found since in such a short space of time.

Exactly, and I obviously can't say for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if this incident effected him as far as his mental stability. I would think in some way he feels responsible because she might have left because they were fighting. He was frantically searching for her that day and calling her friends so he knew something was up.

 

[Nadal]

I agree you can't rule out that A frame, but Jeff also made the same comment about the basement search. He said that he was sure that they wouldn't find anything but since there were a lot of people wanting it done they did it. How could he be sure? They did a search of the grounds of that same house way back when she went missing. I wonder how that came to be?

I actually said i personally have ruled out the A-Frame haha, i understand that others haven't though that's fine, it's just my opinion. I think the fact that they did a search of the grounds when she went missing and turned up nothing is part of the reason he didn't expect to find anything, also possibly that there's some other suspect or scenario completely unrelated to the A-Frame where they have evidence but not enough to bring charges or at least very strong reason to suspect it. Didn't they search the grounds of all of the houses in the immediate area? Was likely to corroborate the witness testimonies that Maura didn't go to their houses as they were obviously all questioned and said she didn't come to their home.