FOUND DECEASED - WA - Lindsey Baum, 10, McCleary, 26 June 2009 #2

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There's a blue vehicle in the gas station at the end of the video as well.
 
YohanApple said:
I was just wondering if there is any way they can tell the age of the person that died by their bones? To know if she was killed right away or what might have happened to her after she was kidnapped.
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That has crossed my mind too. Statistics-wise LB would have been murdered within 3 hours of abduction, but there are other situations. It probably depends on the size of the remnant and as it was part of the skull instead of a a hip or femur there may be no way of knowing. It's heartbreaking to discuss it... Quantico did look at the remnant and find out who it belonged to using DNA, and I wonder how they did that actually. DNA gathering from bones must have really changed? I know they can use something like polymerase chain reaction (?) to create more copies of DNA from a scant sample. Maybe that was it. Unless a tooth fragment was used, it used to not be so useful to just find a piece of bone that had no remaining core (marrow?) or dentine in the teeth. You can use carbon dating on some pieces of bone, I guess..? That wouldn't determine the age of the victim but the age of the bone maybe. I may be entirely wrong..it's a question for a real expert...which the people at Quantico are. My education is Forensic Files University I, and now Forensic Files University II, as well as a smattering of Cold Case Files, tons of 48 hours and Dateline, etc, many books on serial killers and FBI profilers, and several documentaries on Netflix, Prime, HBO, etc. Forensic Files I (several seasons going way back) deals with a lot of the old methods, and not as many of the new DNA methods. I suggest in that case, that unless they find something in a vehicle or property, they'll probably be needing to use the older shoe-leather and old school forensics techniques..and those may never be enough. One can hope Lindsey's resting place will be found and maybe more information.

The other things to look at, I guess, would be signs of animal predation on the bone fragment, edges or marks to indicate if any damage was done to the area by breakage or marks that did not heal, etc. This is such a hard case though, and those might not yield much information other than whether the fragment was carried away from its original spot by a mountain lion, etc.

Wishful thinking: I hope that if the state won't do another search with qualified individuals, there can be extensive fundraising at some point in the near future (by go-fund-me perhaps) to get another group of experience qualified volunteers and dogs out there. It wouldn't involve helicopter stuff, but it could be something at least. Erosion happens, for starters, which might help. Fresh eyes could help as usual.
 
It would be useful to have the GPS coordinates for where the remnant was found. I hope somebody in volunteer or family has that so an independent search could be done. The libarian/historian on the podcast was mentioning the original search might have been 2 sq aerial miles. That would be good to know as well. Searches in mid-spring or mid-fall seem to be the best times to hike around there, according to some reviews on All Trails. The heat is so incredible, I read, in the summer that it's probably dangerous during part of the day. Somebody else seemed to say that it was super slick once the weather turns cold and that better traction shoes are definitely necessary where he/she hiked...which probably would indicate hiking in late Fall to mid-Spring.
 
On the necessity of getting search warrants in connection with the 2003 case... There may be trophies.. but also carpet and other material fibers that can be taken from the Cedar ST property or vehicles owned or used at the time. If there were carpet in the Cedar house that has not been changed, it would be good to get a sample. Looking for any kind of DNA there would be very important..things that weren't vacuumed or swept up over time, things that can't be cleaned away with bleach, etc. Luminol and basic forensics evidence would be so important right now.
 
carbuff said:
It's because you keep mentioning a NONINVOLVED PERSON. This is simply not allowed here. Only people LE has named as suspects can be sleuthed.
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What was deleted from one of my comments did allude to the Hotel Cecil abuses by various websleuths and true crime hosts on youtube etc. It got people all over the globe harrassing somebody who had nothing to do with the case in any way other than that he had stayed at the Hotel Cecil a year prior...in a hotel with 700-something rooms a year prior...and who wasn't living or traveling in the USA when Elisa Lam went missing or anywhere near that time. The poorly researched, ridiculous conclusion was made by an Asian media source and then traveled worldwide. There were death threats against this person and he tried to take his life, ended up in an institution in his home country of Mexico, and it destroyed his life basically. So people of good conscience, who I assume most or all of us are, should be super careful.

I highly recommend these two mini-series on Netflix: Crime Scene: Hotel Cecil, and The Keepers. The Hotel Cecil miniseries needs full attention if we need to do our best to help not hurt. The concluding episodes are extremely important. It also takes on something which has been so important in the USA in the past few years: the spreading of rumor and fanciful nonsense based on nothing (like Q'anon..and I mean that in a non-political way). These behaviors are dangerous for society and if reasonable people don't put a halt to them then we're all in danger. You'll see: the Hotel Cecil episode is FULL of people who were promoting nonsense conspiracy theories. Bizarre nonsensical theories...like the victim must have been carrying TB as an agent from a Canada facility down to Los Angeles in order to infect the homeless population there. Seriously. It's disgusting to see that that happened.
 
carbuff said:
It's a mistake we all make from time to time. I've been on WS for many years and I still got dinged for a slip-up a couple of weeks ago :p
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If we do feel like a quote was off in such a way, how do we delete or edit our own posts? Is that possible?
 
Lens For Lindsey said:
If we do feel like a quote was off in such a way, how do we delete or edit our own posts? Is that possible?
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Editing is possible for half an hour or so; you'll see an "edit" option at the bottom of the post. If the edit time has expired, you can click "report" and ask for the post to be deleted or edited.
 
carbuff said:
I hadn't heard that story before. That is absolutely appalling.
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Yep. You should see it, even if you don't usually get Netflix, it's not too expensive to do for a free period or discounted period, if they still do promotions. With your deep interest in these things, you could definitely use those shows and they used to also have Forensic Files as well. A fictional series based on the original FBI agents who started the entire FBI profiling area of expertise to catch serial murderers is also on there: Mindhunters. I have read a few of the books by some of those original profilers as well and though the show does develop personal lives that are probably not accurate or real, the stories of how they approached serial rapists and murderers is based on real interviews and cases. There are also some Ted Bundy stuff: Conversations With a Killer: The Ted Bundy Tapes. A mini-series based on Ted Bundy from the perspective of his former girlfriend (Extremely Wicked Shockingly Evil and Vile) is a Netflix original and also pretty damn accurate as I discovered from reading about the case and a new documentary from her perspective as well as his victims' families' perspectives, etc on Prime, as well as her updated biographical account of Bundy. Catching Killers is a newer one I've watched on Netflix. Other individual crime series on there that can teach all kinds of things are Why did you kill me? and Evil Genius. One uses social media to catch a murderer, the other shows some truly demented team-oriented crime and murder that was finally caught.

ID Discovery also has a series, Signs of a Psychopath, which is really good for nailing down what psychopathy really means. There are no psychiatric/psychological diagnoses for psychopathy and sociopathy (see the DSM V manual). They are criminology terms to explain, in more layman's or law enforcement/profiler terms, the type of criminal being assessed. That series really made clear to me the difference between psychopaths and sociopaths...which can also in turn help determine what kind of behavior, motivation and logic to expect from a suspect.
 
carbuff said:
Editing is possible for half an hour or so; you'll see an "edit" option at the bottom of the post. If the edit time has expired, you can click "report" and ask for the post to be deleted or edited.
Click to expand...
I don't want to kick myself off the forum... Oh well. Thanks for the info!
 
Lens For Lindsey said:
Yep. You should see it, even if you don't usually get Netflix, it's not too expensive to do for a free period or discounted period, if they still do promotions. With your deep interest in these things, you could definitely use those shows and they used to also have Forensic Files as well. A fictional series based on the original FBI agents who started the entire FBI profiling area of expertise to catch serial murderers is also on there: Mindhunters. I have read a few of the books by some of those original profilers as well and though the show does develop personal lives that are probably not accurate or real, the stories of how they approached serial rapists and murderers is based on real interviews and cases. There are also some Ted Bundy stuff: Conversations With a Killer: The Ted Bundy Tapes. A mini-series based on Ted Bundy from the perspective of his former girlfriend (Extremely Wicked Shockingly Evil and Vile) is a Netflix original and also pretty damn accurate as I discovered from reading about the case and a new documentary from her perspective as well as his victims' families' perspectives, etc on Prime, as well as her updated biographical account of Bundy. Catching Killers is a newer one I've watched on Netflix. Other individual crime series on there that can teach all kinds of things are Why did you kill me? and Evil Genius. One uses social media to catch a murderer, the other shows some truly demented team-oriented crime and murder that was finally caught.

ID Discovery also has a series, Signs of a Psychopath, which is really good for nailing down what psychopathy really means. There are no psychiatric/psychological diagnoses for psychopathy and sociopathy (see the DSM V manual). They are criminology terms to explain, in more layman's or law enforcement/profiler terms, the type of criminal being assessed. That series really made clear to me the difference between psychopaths and sociopaths...which can also in turn help determine what kind of behavior, motivation and logic to expect from a suspect.
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I also forgot to mention Falling for a Killer on Amazon Prime. It's "free" if you already have Prime.
 
Lens For Lindsey said:
I also forgot to mention Falling for a Killer on Amazon Prime. It's "free" if you already have Prime.
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For somebody wanting to go through the old school made new forensics approaches, The Jinx on HBO is a GREAT series. They have a few true crime documentaries worth watching as well.
 
AND: I'll Be Gone in the Dark on HBO is about the hunt for the Golden State Killer, who was eventually caught using Familial DNA forensics..my favorite kind of thing as it's based on deep genealogical research. The woman featured in the series was right on the doorstep of this prior to the Genealogical/DNA findings, if I remember correctly, but died prior to the case being solved. Her husband, a famous comedian, has helped make sure she wasn't forgotten.

As far as those books I mentioned: Mindhunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit is free right now if you subscribe to Kindle Unlimited. It's a good start and one of the few books written by various members of the original profilers unit.
 
carbuff said:
Editing is possible for half an hour or so; you'll see an "edit" option at the bottom of the post. If the edit time has expired, you can click "report" and ask for the post to be deleted or edited.
Click to expand...
How do your direct message somebody? Does that mean everybody can see or respond to it? It's more personal than I care to share with anybody else.
 
Lens For Lindsey said:
AND: I'll Be Gone in the Dark on HBO is about the hunt for the Golden State Killer, who was eventually caught using Familial DNA forensics..my favorite kind of thing as it's based on deep genealogical research. The woman featured in the series was right on the doorstep of this prior to the Genealogical/DNA findings, if I remember correctly, but died prior to the case being solved. Her husband, a famous comedian, has helped make sure she wasn't forgotten.

As far as those books I mentioned: Mindhunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit is free right now if you subscribe to Kindle Unlimited. It's a good start and one of the few books written by various members of the original profilers unit.
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ALSO...sorry: I recommend another show: Bloodline Detectives for understanding how familial DNA research works in catching criminals. I loved the Joe Kenda series, and one that had some good forensics in it was Buried in the Backyard, as deplorable as the title is. It has some good stuff and a lot is based on cold cases that were solved partly or all with good forensics that did not always include DNA. The accounts seem pretty accurate. It's sort of the show I feel guilty watching because of the title, really, but it does some good interviews, not just a story and reenactments. The main one to see is a heartbreaking case that may make your stomach turn, but shows a time capsule of difficult forensic evidence: Season 1, Episode 3: Lady in a Barrel. Truly, truly sad.
 
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