Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #37

[Mex]

Very true, and British police don't ever have to explain their decisions (unless parliament asks them one day - a very unlikely prospect imo). Frustrating isn't it.

I don't think it is frustrating. I have read JT's statement and know exactly what she saw. Nor do I think the DCI didn't know the layout of Luz. But stating what the Doctor and his wife had long thought certainly dismissed an aspect of the case from interest.
There might well have been a reason for that.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

I think they just wanted to be able to give those efits as much publicity as possible. So they had to say the 10pm sighting was the important one.

Is it actually possible for you to put anything concrete on the table which evidences and independently proves the 10pm sighting of Smithman.

 

[Lyall0814]

Is it actually possible for you to put anything concrete on the table which evidences and independently proves the 10pm sighting of Smithman.

I've no idea what you mean.

 

[frank-cole]

I don't know enough about what happened in the trial in the Cipriano case. Do you accept the verdict? It's interesting that you seem happy enough with the prospect of a less than fully transparent MM-related trial in Germany, but I'm guessing you maybe weren't happy with the way that trial in Portugal was conducted? The Portuguese police didn't convict, the judiciary did.

I have some issues with how they investigated the Cipriano case. The beatings, the perjury, the police officers who became convicted criminals, etc etc. I find their hypothesis of incest, freezer & then pigs, to be a rationale that only the 07 PJ could have come up with.It would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious.
There is no real evidence in the Cipriano case, but my ‘gut feeling’ (only) is that they probably caught the right people but certainly didn’t go about it in a professional or rational way. Obviously I’m far more assured with crimes like DM’s rape. A non-preferential sex offender’s DNA was found in the bed of the rape victim. IMO There’s simply no rational argument in defence of CB for this crime. ‘Planted’ or sneaky cats doesn’t wash with me.

I’ve always been intrigued by major crimes & disasters, what appears rather typical, is that the early rumours & the under pressure LEA blunders somehow make their way to becoming the ‘popular‘ story or the ‘facts’ about the case. In time, when facts emerge, that myth, gossip & rumour unravel. It took external LEA’s to come in & slowly start to unwind this mess, but in some respects it was too late, because the flawed logic had already implanted into the minds of too many people & become their ‘truth’. The PJ eventually concluded the McCann’s were not responsible & I fully agree with that.

Regarding transparency, there’s what one wants & there’s the possible reality. I would like to know all the facts (hard as that may be) but I’m not convinced I will do. This isn’t a fictional drama & I don’t expect it to materialise like one. We’re invested by intrigue but we don’t have a stake in this. IMO it would be inexcusably egoo to assume that we have the right to know. That said, i do think we’ll find out many facts & I don’t think anybody will be able to form an argument in favour of CB after those facts emerge. JMO

 

[frank-cole]

Is it actually possible for you to put anything concrete on the table which evidences and independently proves the 10pm sighting of Smithman.

Some speculate that the Smiths could have the dates or times wrong. It’s impossible to verify but probably needs to be taken at face value. Proving Gerry could manipulate the space time continuum & that he did so on 3/5/07 is probably the easiest way to suggest he was Smithman. Point being, he couldn’t be.
IMO
Tannerman - Tottman (he came forward)
Tramnerman - CB (CT says she saw CB)
Smithman - unknown ( apparently never came forward, but y’old PJ had a knack for burying important information)

Smithman could be another red hearing or could be a non-descript male walking in the dark not speaking, responding or making eye contact & he was carrying MM.

 

[Lyall0814]

I have some issues with how they investigated the Cipriano case. The beatings, the perjury, the police officers who became convicted criminals, etc etc. I find their hypothesis of incest, freezer & then pigs, to be a rationale that only the 07 PJ could have come up with.It would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious.
There is no real evidence in the Cipriano case, but my ‘gut feeling’ (only) is that they probably caught the right people but certainly didn’t go about it in a professional or rational way. Obviously I’m far more assured with crimes like DM’s rape. A non-preferential sex offender’s DNA was found in the bed of the rape victim. IMO There’s simply no rational argument in defence of CB for this crime. ‘Planted’ or sneaky cats doesn’t wash with me.

I’ve always been intrigued by major crimes & disasters, what appears rather typical, is that the early rumours & the under pressure LEA blunders somehow make their way to becoming the ‘popular‘ story or the ‘facts’ about the case. In time, when facts emerge, that myth, gossip & rumour unravel. It took external LEA’s to come in & slowly start to unwind this mess, but in some respects it was too late, because the flawed logic had already implanted into the minds of too many people & become their ‘truth’. The PJ eventually concluded the McCann’s were not responsible & I fully agree with that.

Regarding transparency, there’s what one wants & there’s the possible reality. I would like to know all the facts (hard as that may be) but I’m not convinced I will do. This isn’t a fictional drama & I don’t expect it to materialise like one. We’re invested by intrigue but we don’t have a stake in this. IMO it would be inexcusably egoo to assume that we have the right to know. That said, i do think we’ll find out many facts & I don’t think anybody will be able to form an argument in favour of CB after those facts emerge. JMO

I was trying to say you'd be Ok with a trial in Germany during which we don't hear all of the evidence, but then you say there's no real evidence in the Cipriano case. It's impossible to say that because we don't know everything that happened in that trial. Why do you trust the judiciary in Germany but not trust the same in Portugal?

Of course the public have a right to know what happens in trials (a right to know everything the jury hears anyway). We do have a stake in this imo

 

[Okapi]

If they have the partial palm print then he will be convicted for sure but I’m not sure they do. FF is obviously trying to cast doubt on the DM conviction to assist the defence in the HB trial if it gets to court - without the print, the statements of HB and MS are obviously very important.

And the statements of HazelB herself, then and now. Which are detailed and credible imo, and luckily so as they’ll have to do a lot of heavy lifting.

The police investigation at the time was well diabolical is the first word that comes to mind. So the crime scene wasn’t properly assessed/secured and forensics weren’t stored IIRC.

I presume there will be witness accounts sought eg from the British men who found HazelB in the hallway. And of course, the hospital records.

 

[Lyall0814]

Some speculate that the Smiths could have the dates or times wrong. It’s impossible to verify but probably needs to be taken at face value. Proving Gerry could manipulate the space time continuum & that he did so on 3/5/07 is probably the easiest way to suggest he was Smithman. Point being, he couldn’t be.
IMO
Tannerman - Tottman (he came forward)
Tramnerman - CB (CT says she saw CB)
Smithman - unknown ( apparently never came forward, but y’old PJ had a knack for burying important information)

Smithman could be another red hearing or could be a non-descript male walking in the dark not speaking, responding or making eye contact & he was carrying MM.

And Smithman was seen by more than one witness, which is surely important.

 

[frank-cole]

I was trying to say you'd be Ok with a trial in Germany during which we don't hear all of the evidence, but then you say there's no real evidence in the Cipriano case. It's impossible to say that because we don't know everything that happened in that trial. Why do you trust the judiciary in Germany but not trust the same in Portugal?

I was trying to say you'd be Ok with a trial in Germany during which we don't hear all of the evidence, but then you say there's no real evidence in the Cipriano case. It's impossible to say that because we don't know everything that happened in that trial. Why do you trust the judiciary in Germany but not trust the same in Portugal?

I’d like to hear all of the evidence but i don’t necessarily think I will do. I’d like it to be sunny tomorrow but it may rain at some point. I still think we’ll be able to make informed & rational conclusions based on the evidence we do find out. But I don’t think I have the right to know everything about a trial behind closed doors just because i’m interested & would like to know everything.

I think the criminal histories of the police officers running that area at that time speak for themselves. My opinion of those directly involved is reflective by their criminality. Regarding the judiciary, I think you may be confusing what I’ve been saying. ‘Gut feeling’ I think they may have gotten the Cipriano verdict right, but I wouldn’t be too shocked if one day that was proven wrong. I also think they got it right when they concluded the McCann’s weren’t involved (after all of the facts had been established). I don’t think the police corruption migrated its way to the judges & the court system, hence why I have the tendency not to doubt them as much.

German systems are far more clinical, evidence based &unrelenting. The thresholds will likely be higher & the curse of double jeopardy influences the way police & prosecutors operate. Including how they also investigate to try & eliminate the accused as a suspect. However, regarding CB, in 5 years they’ve found absolutely nothing to eliminate him as a suspect. If they had he would be a suspect. JMO

 

[Lyall0814]

I’d like to hear all of the evidence but i don’t necessarily think I will do. I’d like it to be sunny tomorrow & id be ‘ok’ with that, but it may rain at some point. I still think we’ll be able to make informed & rational conclusions based on the evidence we do find out about. I don’t think I have the right to know everything about a trial behind closed doors just because i’m interested & would like to know everything.

I think the criminal history’s of the police officers running that area at that time speak for themselves. My opinion of them is reflective of their criminality. Regarding the judiciary, I think you may be confusing what I’ve been saying. ‘Gut feeling’ I think they may have gotten the Cipriano verdict right, but I wouldn’t be too shocked if one day that was proven wrong. I also think they got it right when they concluded the McCann’s weren’t involved (after they’d established & worked through all of the facts). I don’t think the evident police corruption migrated into the judges & the court system, hence why I have the tendency not to doubt them as much

A trial behind closed doors? Who's expecting that?

 

[onemoremiletogo]

What open window, this is where it could get messy for the BKA if they go the route of abduction, crime scene photos show it closed.An easy defence.

MCs testimonies and contamination of crime scene prior to those photos...but move on with an easy defense LOL. Your immediate focus on any hole for the defense...as if in FF mind...
IMO BKA will not go that way if not well supported.

 

[Okapi]

I was trying to say you'd be Ok with a trial in Germany during which we don't hear all of the evidence, but then you say there's no real evidence in the Cipriano case. It's impossible to say that because we don't know everything that happened in that trial. Why do you trust the judiciary in Germany but not trust the same in Portugal?

Of course the public have a right to know what happens in trials (a right to know everything the jury hears anyway). We do have a stake in this imo

Sorry, Lyall, I’m not across how much of the trial process is open, but didn’t someone upthread say that in German courts some of the victim testimony/evidence may be heard by the judge behind closed doors/sealed, particularly as relates to juveniles? Obviously there will no longer be juveniles, but if the upthread observation is right, there may be a public moratorium on some details to respect the privacy of the survivors? Just a thought.

 

[Lyall0814]

Sorry, Lyall, I’m not across how much of the trial process is open, but didn’t someone upthread say that in German courts some of the victim testimony/evidence may be heard by the judge behind closed doors/sealed, particularly as relates to juveniles? Obviously there will no longer be juveniles, but if the upthread observation is right, there may be a public moratorium on some details to respect the privacy of the survivors? Just a thought.

I understand. I'm completely ignorant about the German system, it's all new to me. I can't hide it

 

[Megnut]

He was a professional burglar. He couldn’t rely on the McCanns leaving the patio doors open.

Is it that easy to get these lock picks? Will they send them to anyone?

I do agree with you that paint solvent would be noxious and I imagine also unpredictable in that the child could cough or vomit.

Or he told her he was bringing her to her parents so she trusted him and went quietly....

And he used chemical means to sedate her once inside his vehicle, where I believe he kept her concealed and quiet while carrying on as if nothing happened. I think he's fearless.

And was inches from being found out, something that thrilled him even more.

JMO

 

[Mex]

Some speculate that the Smiths could have the dates or times wrong. It’s impossible to verify but probably needs to be taken at face value. Proving Gerry could manipulate the space time continuum & that he did so on 3/5/07 is probably the easiest way to suggest he was Smithman. Point being, he couldn’t be.
IMO
Tannerman - Tottman (he came forward)
Tramnerman - CB (CT says she saw CB)
Smithman - unknown ( apparently never came forward, but y’old PJ had a knack for burying important information)

Smithman could be another red hearing or could be a non-descript male walking in the dark not speaking, responding or making eye contact & he was carrying MM.

The Smithman fable doesn't concern me at all Frank. There is no evidence for any of it let alone proof. So an irrelevance. All that matters is evidence. And that is what is motivating three police forces to name CB as prime suspect. That is the sum and substance of what is a very big thing indeed.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

And Smithman was seen by more than one witness, which is surely important.

The important word I used when mentioning evidence was "independent". The Estrela da Luz was covered by CCTV. Had the sighting been reported before that footage was scrubbed we might have had a firm time and a date to work from.

 

[onemoremiletogo]

And in JC's case, lies, misreporting, changing stories, contradictions, police cover ups and investigative failures... the list goes in and on. Many doubts, strangenesses and coincidences.

 

[Lyall0814]

The important word I used when mentioning evidence was "independent". The Estrela da Luz was covered by CCTV. Had the sighting been reported before that footage was scrubbed we might have had a firm time and a date to work from.

Ah, you're in alliance with the conspiracy theorists on this matter. I see where you're coming from now

 

[Mex]

I understand. I'm completely ignorant about the German system, it's all new to me. I can't hide it

I think the majority of us are. Probably much as we don't really know all the ins and outs of our own system. From the little I can make out of the German system is that they seem to bend over backwards to ensure the accused has a fair and unprejudiced trial.

 

[Mex]

Ah, you're in alliance with the conspiracy theorists on this matter. I see where you're coming from now

Conspiracy theorists don't as a rule demand to see the evidence before calling a judgement in and deciding on a comforting theory.

Show me the evidence Lyall because I've had a good look and have found none.

We have had it affirmed that the German prosecutors have evidence which will be under wraps until charges are laid. Some people take that on trust and some people don't. There are no such restrictions on smithman evidence which was put to bed a long time ago.