MO - Furious Friends Demand Answers After 3 Men Found Dead at Kansas City Home Days After Watching Football Game, January 2024 #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
2nd degree manslaughter charge
No its second degree murder. There are several Missouri prosecutions for 2nd degree murder for supplying drugs that resulted in overdose death. It doesn't matter if the supplier knew if there was an impurity or not. Many states have similar laws that elevate overdose deaths to murder charges for the person who supplied the drugs.
 
thank you, that link has been shared a few pages back. from your link:

Burning destroys fentanyl

Fentanyl is destroyed when it is burned including when it is in a joint, blunt or other means of smoking marijuana. This means that even if it is mixed with marijuana flower it will have no effect on a person who is smoking it.


THIS IS QUITE SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

here's another link that might interest you:
TX - 3 charged with blowing fentanyl smoke in newborn's face to stop her from crying - January 30th 2024

here's another:

How is it consumed?
snorted/sniffed, smoked, orally by pill or tablet, spiked onto blotter paper, patches, sold alone or in combination with heroin and other substances, has been identified in fake pills, mimicking pharmaceutical drugs such as oxycodone.
https://www.dea.gov/factsheets/fentanyl

regardless, in THIS case, I believe the fentanyl was snorted. So I debate this with you only in the interest of being factual and not giving people bad info.
IMHO When LE and others (reporters?) talk about fent being smoked, it is not in marijuana joints. They are referring to smoked in crack pipes. Crack is rock cocaine and is smoked in pipes or tin foil. Fent is not smoked in marijuana/pot/joints.


What Are Cocaine & Crack?
Cocaine is a white powder that comes from the dried leaves of the coca plant, which is found in South America. Crack cocaine is a form of the drug that gives a very quick, intense high.

Crack is made by cooking cocaine powder with baking soda, then breaking it into small pieces called rocks. It got its name because it crackles when it is heated and smoked.

Crack cocaine looks like white or tan pellets (sort of like gerbil or dry cat food). Both cocaine and crack are very addictive — and very, very dangerous.

What Else Are Cocaine & Crack Called?
coke, rock, snow, blow, white, toot, nose candy, base, flake, powder, basa, smack

How Are Cocaine & Crack Used?
Cocaine is inhaled or snorted through the nose or injected into a vein. Crack is smoked in a pipe.
 
Willis checked into rehab earlier this week, while a friend claimed it was the 'enormous, heartbreaking wake-up call' he needed to seek professional help.

However attorney and retired NYPD inspector Paul Mauro said: 'I think they're trying to play on people's sympathies that he had a drug problem. It verifies what a lot of us speculated on: maybe a drug they didn't know was in there.'
I’m a pretty cynical person, I’ll admit. However, I’m getting pretty tired of unrelated people, who don’t know anything about the people involved, inserting their opinions as if they are facts.

Could JW‘s trip to rehab be a CYA move or sympathy ploy? Of course it could. Anything is possible. However, I most definitely think it’s possible that what happened to his friends was a wake up call and he is sincerely trying to get help.

I don’t know, but I also don’t pretend to know. He wouldn’t be the first person to have a death close to him that finally sparks a realization.
 
As I have mentioned before, my 19 year old's drug of choice is fentanyl. About 2 years ago he snorted what he and his friends thought was percocet. It contained fentanyl and that is when this hellish addiction started.
 
Yes it does as does @10ofRods post.. But it doesn't make sense to me to mix the drugs (take them together) IF the goal is a soft landing. Using downers or tranquilizers as a chaser makes some sense but not taking them at the same time. So IF JW had been "the chemist" (which I doubt) I don't see why he'd add fentanyl & so be able to add too much accidentally. MOO
I added an edit to my post explaining further. I coped it below also.

*Edit to add more info- regarding cocaine and H/opiates- doing them together is called “speed balling” it gives you the positives of both drugs while reducing the negatives. If you do H, instead of nodding out you take cocaine to stay awake and enjoy your high. If too much cocaine, opiates to calm down as stated above.

I am not saying this was their intention or what they did that night- it probably was mistakenly mixed with cocaine. I was simply trying to answer the original posts questions on why someone would mix the 2. Yes it is a lethal combo, many times people do it successfully, until they don’t. When people are in that state, it’s hard for them to consider their future. Consider how many rich and famous people this happens to… of course this will happen to the average user also.
 
No its second degree murder. There are several Missouri prosecutions for 2nd degree murder for supplying drugs that resulted in overdose death. It doesn't matter if the supplier knew if there was an impurity or not. Many states have similar laws that elevate overdose deaths to murder charges for the person who supplied the drugs.
Thank you for that. IMHO they are not looking at that. They may eventually, but I do not see this: According to § 565.021, you can be convicted of second degree murder in Missouri if: You knowingly cause the death of another person with the intent of causing serious physical injury.


I have not heard anything which would indicate or imply JW intended to cause serious physical injury or death. These were his friends. He supposedly was or had bought expensive tickets to recent or future Chiefs playoff games.

JMHO. Appreciate all here!
 
Last edited:
I'm still not clear on why dealers would put fentanyl in any other drug - is it to make the other drug more potent thereby having to use less of the more expensive drug?
Some addicts prefer it and strictly buy fentanyl, some even prefer it over heroin because it's cheaper and easier to find. I'm not sure if it's cut purposefully, or if it is just used to cut things like coke because it's cheaper and they're trying get the most gain out of the product, because they could sell it as cocaine, at a higher price? From a business point I can't see it done purposefully to cocaine because it offers the opposite affect? So I'm not really clear on that either.
 
I think it's going to be difficult because thawing out dead bodies takes time. It's a fine line to thaw but at the same time allay decomposition. The size of the individuals would be a factor as well. The largest of the three men might be able to give an indication since it's possible his body, due to its size, did not reach the ambient temperature of the environment. When bodies are found in freezers narrowing down time of death become problematic. It must have been very difficult removing the bodies. It's hard moving bodies that are in complete rigor so moving a 200+ pound plus person frozen in a sitting position would be hard.

Thawing or not thawing the body - there are ways of determining ToD in frozen bodies. Time to freeze and time to thaw are not particularly important to those calculations.

I wrote a long post about it, but to summarize:

Different parts of the body freeze more quickly. Deeper organs freeze last. Brain will show visible signs (upon tomography) of hypothermia and then freezing. There are charts and calculators that medical examiners use to compare all this data (first subtracting, of course, the time it took for the body to entirely freeze). Weather data is used as well.

Then, there are enzymes produced by dead cells (which will be dying at different rates in a human body - most likely fingertips first). Usually, samples are taken from 4-5 different organ systems. Decomp still happens, even in deeply frozen bodies (like the Iceman found in Italy). It's just way slower. There are ways to learn just how long it took (bloating, for example, may still happen in parts of the body at temperatures like the ones we have in this case). The gases in the bloating will be frozen in place as the body freezes. Upon thawing, samples are taken that give a good picture of the process of death.

None of this depends on the body size of the individual. It's all biochemistry of death.

IMO.
 
I’m a pretty cynical person, I’ll admit. However, I’m getting pretty tired of unrelated people, who don’t know anything about the people involved, inserting their opinions as if they are facts.

Could JW‘s trip to rehab be a CYA move or sympathy ploy? Of course it could. Anything is possible. However, I most definitely think it’s possible that what happened to his friends was a wake up call and he is sincerely trying to get help.

I don’t know, but I also don’t pretend to know. He wouldn’t be the first person to have a death close to him that finally sparks a realization.

Treatment is the quickest place to go to hide out. HIPPA, and all of that. However, it is also the quickest place to get kicked out if you are not doing the program.

Hopefully, this is a wake up call.
 
I'm still not clear on why dealers would put fentanyl in any other drug - is it to make the other drug more potent thereby having to use less of the more expensive drug?
fentanyl is very addictive. Dealers want a repeat customer.

JMO

Done correctly, lacing illicit drugs with fentanyl often creates a return stream of customers because fentanyl is considered highly addictive. This is why fentanyl is often found in drugs like cocaine, counterfeit Xanax, counterfeit Adderall, or other drugs not classified as opioids.

“Fentanyl is good for business if you layer addiction into it,” Dasgupta said.
 
I'm still not clear on why dealers would put fentanyl in any other drug - is it to make the other drug more potent thereby having to use less of the more expensive drug?
you're definitely not alone on questioning why dealers would do this. the "average" user of cocaine wants nothing to do with fentanyl ime, and dealers seemingly put themselves at an even higher risk of being investigated when something bad happens (not to mention potentially killing one of your customers). i would imagine the potency/profit aspect you bring up is absolutely the motivation in many cases (though the drugs are so different in their effect, and so dangerous when combined, that its still a bit hard for me to understand). another theory is that its frequently the result of cross-contamination during the manufacturing/packaging process (i.e. same presses and/or scales used for cocaine/fentanyl/heroin, resulting in adulterated product).
 
Thawing or not thawing the body - there are ways of determining ToD in frozen bodies. Time to freeze and time to thaw are not particularly important to those calculations.

I wrote a long post about it, but to summarize:

Different parts of the body freeze more quickly. Deeper organs freeze last. Brain will show visible signs (upon tomography) of hypothermia and then freezing. There are charts and calculators that medical examiners use to compare all this data (first subtracting, of course, the time it took for the body to entirely freeze). Weather data is used as well.

Then, there are enzymes produced by dead cells (which will be dying at different rates in a human body - most likely fingertips first). Usually, samples are taken from 4-5 different organ systems. Decomp still happens, even in deeply frozen bodies (like the Iceman found in Italy). It's just way slower. There are ways to learn just how long it took (bloating, for example, may still happen in parts of the body at temperatures like the ones we have in this case). The gases in the bloating will be frozen in place as the body freezes. Upon thawing, samples are taken that give a good picture of the process of death.

None of this depends on the body size of the individual. It's all biochemistry of death.

IMO.
Okay, that makes sense although I am taking my cues from when I worked in the Forensic Science building in Toronto where there conversations about the timing of defrosting dead bodies without accelerating decomp. Finding dead bodies in Toronto in the winter is not unusual. In my first post regarding the defrosting of dead bodies I touched on the issue of decomp still occurring in frozen bodies. However, your explanation makes it much clearer how the process unfolds and how science adjusts to the circumstances of sample taking. Thanks for the clarification.
 
At this point I think the worst JW could be accused of in this case is going into denial, and not reporting what had happened if he did know his friends were out in the garden. There was no attempt to hide the bodies or anything of that nature.

To me his story of not knowing they were out there is very believable. In all probability all four men took the drug, and JW was simply the one who was lucky and survived. I don't see there being anything more nefarious than that.
I’m not a lawyer, but I think JW might face criminal charges if he provided the drugs.
 
you're definitely not alone on questioning why dealers would do this. the "average" user of cocaine wants nothing to do with fentanyl ime, and dealers seemingly put themselves at an even higher risk of being investigated when something bad happens (not to mention potentially killing one of your customers). i would imagine the potency/profit aspect you bring up is absolutely the motivation in many cases (though the drugs are so different in their effect, and so dangerous when combined, that its still a bit hard for me to understand). another theory is that its frequently the result of cross-contamination during the manufacturing/packaging process (i.e. same presses and/or scales used for cocaine/fentanyl/heroin, resulting in adulterated product).

My suspicion - to hook people on a much more potent substance that they won't be able to stop. Or, for bulk.

Here is what the dealers used to do a while ago.


Mixed cocaine with the drug used to treat ascaris, a human parasite, so several died from pulmonary edema.
 
Correct. Those Officers would likely not have any qualified immunity from direct suit. And the County, if the sheriff did indeed authorize this, would have waived its sovereign immunity as well. Which is why I find it hard to believe any LE would engage in this.
I'm finding zero evidence that any LE agencies are involved in drug testing at raves/music events. There are few private companies involved, but it's not widespread, more in use in Europe than in the U.S.
 
you're definitely not alone on questioning why dealers would do this. the "average" user of cocaine wants nothing to do with fentanyl ime, and dealers seemingly put themselves at an even higher risk of being investigated when something bad happens (not to mention potentially killing one of your customers). i would imagine the potency/profit aspect you bring up is absolutely the motivation in many cases (though the drugs are so different in their effect, and so dangerous when combined, that its still a bit hard for me to understand). another theory is that its frequently the result of cross-contamination during the manufacturing/packaging process (i.e. same presses and/or scales used for cocaine/fentanyl/heroin, resulting in adulterated product).
There's also the factor that the drugs have probably passed through many hands before it reaches the neighborhood street dealer. While he or she clearly would not want to kill off customers, who knows about someone higher up the food chain and what they might do to adulterate the product?

It's possible the local guy or girl is cutting it themselves or cutting it further, but it's possible they're just weighing out and distributing what they're delivered.
 
Thank you for that. IMHO they are not looking at that. They may eventually, but I do not see this: According to § 565.021, you can be convicted of second degree murder in Missouri if: You knowingly cause the death of another person with the intent of causing serious physical injury.


I have not heard anything which would indicate or imply JW intended to cause serious physical injury or death. These were his friends. He supposedly was or had bought expensive tickets to recent or future Chiefs playoff games.

JMHO. Appreciate all here!
Look at 565.021(2) " Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony, another person is killed as a result of the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony or immediate flight from the perpetration of such felony or attempted perpetration of such felony."
Delivery of fentanyl is the felony and individuals died as a result of that felony.
 
Some addicts prefer it and strictly buy fentanyl, some even prefer it over heroinre because it's cheaper and easier to find. I'm not sure if it's cut purposefully, or if it is just used to cut things like coke because it's cheaper and they're trying get the most gain out of the product, because they could sell it as cocaine, at a higher price? From a business point I can't see it done purposefully to cocaine because it offers the opposite affect? So I'm not really clear on that either.
If you are a user and prefer to buy only fentanyl how does a layperson who plans on using it know whether or not what they have is okay to use or dangerous?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
176
Guests online
3,904
Total visitors
4,080

Forum statistics

Threads
594,246
Messages
18,000,884
Members
229,344
Latest member
tvfire1018
Back
Top