UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[InstantCoffee]

I'm maybe being bit thick here... but what is the rationale for them continuing to hide / live off grid / avoid being 'caught' once Victoria is dead? If she did die when the Defence say she did... why would you hide a body and continue with the madness? Surely, the whole point of you being on the run is to keep the baby? No baby... why run? And if it was through accidental suffocation then surely you would want a PM as soon as possible to confirm that?
Instead, they waited it out for 7+ weeks until they were finally caught and Victoria's body was no longer in a state to confirm their narrative or it seems, any narrative. Very convenient for them! I can only think they were hoping time would obfuscate the findings and so they attempted to stay hidden as long as possible for this reason. JMO

And the 'Daddy Bear' thing... don't even!

 

[rockthecasbah]

I wonder why she did 3 ATM transactions. Would it let you take the maximum amount out every time?

 

[Henrymoggington]

When are the Daily Mail not inflammatory?

I'm maybe being bit thick here... but what is the rationale for them continuing to hide / live off grid / avoid being 'caught' once Victoria is dead? If she did die when the Defence say she did... why would you hide a body and continue with the madness? Surely, the whole point of you being on the run is to keep the baby? No baby... why run? And if it was through accidental suffocation then surely you would want a PM as soon as possible to confirm that?
Instead, they waited it out for 7+ weeks until they were finally caught and Victoria's body was no longer in a state to confirm their narrative or it seems, any narrative. Very convenient for them! I can only think they were hoping time would obfuscate the findings and so they attempted to stay hidden as long as possible for this reason. JMO

And the 'Daddy Bear' thing... don't even!

I was about to say the same.. this Daddy Bear thing is just beyond any rational behaviour. The more I’m reading here about their behaviour, the more astounding their actions are.. there’s nothing that appears to be rational, or caring for Victoria. There doesn’t appear to be one shred of sane behaviour IMO

 

[JumpingFrog]

I'm maybe being bit thick here... but what is the rationale for them continuing to hide / live off grid / avoid being 'caught' once Victoria is dead? If she did die when the Defence say she did... why would you hide a body and continue with the madness? Surely, the whole point of you being on the run is to keep the baby? No baby... why run? And if it was through accidental suffocation then surely you would want a PM as soon as possible to confirm that?
Instead, they waited it out for 7+ weeks until they were finally caught and Victoria's body was no longer in a state to confirm their narrative or it seems, any narrative. Very convenient for them! I can only think they were hoping time would obfuscate the findings and so they attempted to stay hidden as long as possible for this reason. JMO

And the 'Daddy Bear' thing... don't even!

It's irrational exactly. People mentally unwell or going through an acute episode of something, or people grieving, or people scared of authority, would keep running. Paradoxically, I reckon they were lax and looking to be caught - to end the hiding, despite the things yet to come (facing the music, facing what they had done, her body being found how it was found, going on trial etc). Anyhoo I reckon they weren't trying to hide anymore and it'd be easier to be found because they'd been off the radar a month, then doing stuff like get on cctv, stay in the same area, speak to people. In plain sight.

 

[Pidgy]

But also usefully, they should be able to tell for how long the baby had been dead.

My uneducated speculation is that there's a huge difference between three weeks and seven and a half weeks.

But that might not be true.

That's what I mean: possible date of death carries the same information as possible length of time she's been dead. The pathologist will be able to top and tail this. He will think in terms of probabilities, given among other things that Victoria may have been born prematurely. His conclusions will be in his report.

Do we know how many more days have been pencilled in for the prosecution to present its case? The pathologist is still to hear from; social services too.

 

[Alyce]

I wonder why she did 3 ATM transactions. Would it let you take the maximum amount out every time?

could have been 3 different accounts she was accessing perhaps

 

[Henrymoggington]

I wonder why she did 3 ATM transactions. Would it let you take the maximum amount out every time?

No there a daily limit likely to be £500 and they could only take that it once unless they crossed over midnight. Strikes me that after not being able to draw money for fear of being traced, at this point they don’t care… maybe they thought grab cash and get as far away as possible as quickly as possible.. who knows.. just my thinking

 

[Pidgy]

I'm maybe being bit thick here... but what is the rationale for them continuing to hide / live off grid / avoid being 'caught' once Victoria is dead? If she did die when the Defence say she did... why would you hide a body and continue with the madness? Surely, the whole point of you being on the run is to keep the baby? No baby... why run? And if it was through accidental suffocation then surely you would want a PM as soon as possible to confirm that?
Instead, they waited it out for 7+ weeks until they were finally caught and Victoria's body was no longer in a state to confirm their narrative or it seems, any narrative. Very convenient for them! I can only think they were hoping time would obfuscate the findings and so they attempted to stay hidden as long as possible for this reason. JMO

And the 'Daddy Bear' thing... don't even!

Why stay hidden? Because of emotions - both wanting and not wanting to dispose of the body.

"Daddy Bear" - probably just a pet name - she loved him especially much when he was with their baby. I don't think she's a psycho. Got to have some normal things about her. Could just about be a codeword meaning remember the plan, don't answer questions about Victoria.

Is this on video?

 

[rockthecasbah]

Also why are some parts beeped out in the arrest videos?

 

[rockthecasbah]

Could just about be a codeword meaning remember the plan, don't answer questions about Victoria.

Is this on video?

Good theory.

 

[pokerowan]

Seems like a very on-the-nose codeword if so... At best it comes off as totally inappropriate given the short life of their child. JMO though.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Also why are some parts beeped out in the arrest videos?

I suspect there was an offence that was dropped, which they don't want the jury to know about. Possibly murder, though it wasn't reported at the time, so if they were arrested on suspicion of murder it must have been dropped very quickly.

 

[Nikynoo]

I'm maybe being bit thick here... but what is the rationale for them continuing to hide / live off grid / avoid being 'caught' once Victoria is dead? If she did die when the Defence say she did... why would you hide a body and continue with the madness? Surely, the whole point of you being on the run is to keep the baby? No baby... why run? And if it was through accidental suffocation then surely you would want a PM as soon as possible to confirm that?
Instead, they waited it out for 7+ weeks until they were finally caught and Victoria's body was no longer in a state to confirm their narrative or it seems, any narrative. Very convenient for them! I can only think they were hoping time would obfuscate the findings and so they attempted to stay hidden as long as possible for this reason. JMO

And the 'Daddy Bear' thing... don't even!

Why did they not move on when the baby died?

 

[Nikynoo]

I wonder why she did 3 ATM transactions. Would it let you take the maximum amount out every time?

Three separate cards? Or perhaps couldn’t decide how much to take out?

 

[Obergine]

When the cctv footage of them walking from the ATM shop came out last year a close listen seemed to pick up them talking of moving on to London. So take money and run was the plan.

 

[Cardgame]

Why did they not move on when the baby died?

Presumably because they were then trying to hide her body.

It's not clear ATM what their logic was for hiding the body.

CM -when arrested - expressed surprise that concealing a pregnancy is criminal, stating that it's "not an arrestable offence".

 

[GreekGal]

When the cctv footage of them walking from the ATM shop came out last year a close listen seemed to pick up them talking of moving on to London. So take money and run was the plan.

You beat me to it. Yes I heard that as well from the doorbell footage. Presumably they would not be able to take Victoria with them for obvious reasons therefore IMO they had no intention of having a post mortem examination done.

 

[Pidgy]

What's the minimum amount of petrol you can buy at a pump? I thought it was 5 litres. Perhaps this means if you buy half a pint you will be charged for 5 litres?

 

[Telltale]

Presumably because they were then trying to hide her body.

It's not clear ATM what their logic was for hiding the body.

CM -when arrested - expressed surprise that concealing a pregnancy is criminal, stating that it's "not an arrestable offence".

She probably got confused about what she was getting arrested for.


Concealing the birth of a child (Offences Against the Person Act 1861) is about hiding the body of a newborn to prevent a legal inquest, regardless of whether the child was stillborn or died shortly after birth. - Arrestable offence all day long.

Not registering a birth, (Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953) within 42 days is summery (magistrates) only and basically about admin, the worst you can get is a fine. - Not generally arrestable.

I mean technically the second is also a criminal offence so the power to arrest is available, but it would be very very unlikely to be used and would result in a very grumpy custody sergeant. Far more likely for social services to be stepping in before it would be remotely reasonable.

I imagine she got arrested for the first and thought (or wanted them to think she thought) they were talking about the second. In fairness it's a confusingly named law, but I guess calling it Concealing the Death of a Child wouldn't cover stillbirths and the like.

 

[Pidgy]

You beat me to it. Yes I heard that as well from the doorbell footage. Presumably they would not be able to take Victoria with them for obvious reasons therefore IMO they had no intention of having a post mortem examination done.

OTOH it's easy enough to dispose of a small body.
Maybe they - meaning CM, because she's the boss - didn't know what to do, so they stayed in effectively the same position for several weeks until the police changed their position for them.