4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #92

[Cool Cats]

I presume that LE have been diligently searching for any previous crime (especially of violence) that could have involved BK. Would we know if something had been found, or would it be kept quiet until revealed in the course of the trial, do you think?

I feel like we would know if they had found something because they would have to file charges. They couldn't find that he did something back in 2019 and keep it a secret to use at trial.
Right?

If BK was arrested and convicted of a crime it is public record unless expunged.

As happened here....

Bryan Kohberger’s father called police on accused Idaho killer nine years before murders

Bryan Kohberger’s father called police on accused Idaho killer nine years before murders

When confronted by his father over the theft, Bryan Kohberger chillingly warned him ‘not to do anything stupid’, according to court records

news.yahoo.com

Court records, newly obtained by ABC News, reveal that Mr Kohberger was arrested and charged with stealing one of his sister Melissa’s cellphones back in 2014.

The then-19-year-old had recently left rehab for drug addiction issues.

On 8 February 2014, he stole the $400 iPhone and paid a friend $20 to pick him up and take him to a local mall where he then sold it for $200.

When confronted by his father Michael over the theft, Mr Kohberger chillingly warned him “not to do anything stupid” according to the court records. His father reported the incident to the police.

He didn’t serve any jail time and his record now appears to be expunged under Monroe County’s program to clear the records of first-time offenders.

 

[helenann2k]

I have to believe we do not know everything about the prosecution's case. Even if there was no stalking as defined by LE, there can easily be other incidents that would explain what makes a killer act. He could've been recently rejected by a girl and decided to take it out on any popular girls. He could've heard people talking about partying at that house. He could've had a random encounter with one and found out where they lived. We try too hard to make sense out of it all. Bottom line, BK was bagging his trash and taking it to a neighbor's trash. He had prior incidents of being "a creep." They have receipts for a Dicky's item. they have some sort of DNA on a sheath. The car fits the description. I'm not talking in terms of legal or court-worthy evidence, because we aren't at trial yet. I'm just very tired of the tendency to defend anyone accused of anything, and all these crazy theories out there. Sure looks like a duck to me.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Now that we know from BT (the prosecutor) that BK was not stalking anyone nor did he do social media with anyone from that house and, Mr. G indicated that KG's wounds were far worse than MM. When one victim's wounds are much worse than another victim's wounds, it is referred to as overkill. Usually in cases where one victim's wounds are far worse than those of another victim, this indicates that the victim with the worse wounds was the target. But, if BK didn't know them by stalking or social media, then he could not have targeted KG. She was not a big woman, so although she fought she would not be much of an adversary for a man over 6' tall. If BK just chose that house randomly, why the overkill on KG?

Was it overkill in general or because she maybe fought back and it ticked the killer off? Everyone reacts differently when presented with a stressful/life death situation. Some go deer in the headlights and don't fight back. Some try to escape. But if Kaylee was trapped in the corner, she might have fought with her OWN rage, resulting in more damage than might have happened to someone who got a single death blow and had no chance to fight back. If the killer had to attack her over an already inert body, harder to get to, harder to stab a death blow. If the killer had to fight to kill her, he might have THEN been angry enough to overkill. Nothing personal really, just anger at it taking longer than it should.
As a thought, anyway.

 

[girlhasnoname]

That is indeed another one of the problematic implications of the lack of stalking.
Xana also fought back, but the severity of Kaylee's wounds is unmatched in the house. Xana's wounds are clearly described as including defensive wounds, but Kaylees are not. Poor Kaylee took the brunt of the killer's rage. Why?
If I just purely look at what happened in the house, this crime does seem like there's a personal aspect to it IMO. I can't reconcile that with a total stranger who never stalked or even interacted with any of them.
We're missing something. Perhaps an interaction that we don't know about, or perhaps...?

We don't know for a fact (MSM) that Kaylee's wounds were unmatched in the house. Madison and Kaylee were asleep when BK snuck up on them.

One or two swift blows would have killed M and even if K woke up in the seconds that would have taken, BK would have quickly taken her out in 1 or 2 blows as well. He was skilled with a knife and boxed so he had stronger than average arm and upper body strength.

Xana was awake, having just received her DD order. An awake person has the consciousness to be aware of the danger and try to defend themselves. Therefore, defensive wounds.

We also do not know for a fact (MSM) that there was absolutely no 'stalking' or 'following' of any of the victims. Maybe it is something that cannot be discussed until trial?

JMO

 

[Balthazar]

Was it overkill in general or because she maybe fought back and it ticked the killer off? Everyone reacts differently when presented with a stressful/life death situation. Some go deer in the headlights and don't fight back. Some try to escape. But if Kaylee was trapped in the corner, she might have fought with her OWN rage, resulting in more damage than might have happened to someone who got a single death blow and had no chance to fight back. If the killer had to attack her over an already inert body, harder to get to, harder to stab a death blow. If the killer had to fight to kill her, he might have THEN been angry enough to overkill. Nothing personal really, just anger at it taking longer than it should.
As a thought, anyway.

Allegedly, there was an extreme difference between KG's and MM's wounds. KG's were described as "overkill" in comparison to the other 3 victims. We know that XK fought back, but even her wounds were apparently not similar to KG's.

Idaho stabbing victim’s injuries ‘significantly more brutal’

Goncalves’ injuries were significantly more brutal than her best friend Madison Mogen, which may end up being a very important piece of evidence when it comes to determining who the target wa…

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[Balthazar]

I disagree, most of the cases I've followed on WS the Defense always say or strongly imply that their client is 'not guilty', or 'looking forward to exonerating him of these charges', etc. The Defense has a job to do, they're not going to come out and say they think he's guilty even if they believe it.

JMO

Usually, I see the defense do a bit of foot shuffling. The defense attorneys I've observed are often not very committed to their clients innocence, at least not verbally.

 

[Balthazar]

I presume that LE have been diligently searching for any previous crime (especially of violence) that could have involved BK. Would we know if something had been found, or would it be kept quiet until revealed in the course of the trial, do you think?

If he committed another felony that would be easy to get a conviction on, IMO they would charge him and do that trial before the death penalty trial so he would go to his death penalty trial a convicted felon.

 

[NCWatcher]

Allegedly, there was an extreme difference between KG's and MM's wounds. KG's were described as "overkill" in comparison to the other 3 victims. We know that XK fought back, but even her wounds were apparently not similar to KG's.

Idaho stabbing victim’s injuries ‘significantly more brutal’

Goncalves’ injuries were significantly more brutal than her best friend Madison Mogen, which may end up being a very important piece of evidence when it comes to determining who the target wa…

www.newsnationnow.com

That may all be true. At this point none of us can know. But the source for KG's wounds being worse than others in the above link (and in every other document I can find) is KG's parents, mainly her father. In several articles her father talks about her wounds being worse and he often seems to imply he knows that from paying for and reading his daughter's death certificate. See, for example, Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

It's usual for the next of kin to need a death certificate (DC) and to have to pay for copies of the DC in order to settle the estate of the deceased. It's not usual, in my experience, for a DC to contain lots of autopsy-level details (and for most deaths, there is no autopsy.) Nor would it be at all usual for a DC to make comparisons with the deaths of others-- whether the deaths were due to a mass murder, a multi-victim car accident, a natural disaster or an epidemic/pandemic. It's usual for principal causes of death, contributory causes of death and manner of death to be listed as well as specific victim information (age, date of birth , full name, sex, address, occupation, etc) So I'm not sure how SG got the information he says he has from KG's DC.

And the person discussing KG's injuries as "overkill" is former CIA and FBI agent Tracy Walder who is not involved in the case. She's just commenting on the kinds of conclusions that are usually drawn when one murder victim's wounds are noticeably worse than the wounds of others. She doesn't have firsthand information that KG's were worse, just that the parents say they were.
MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

That may all be true. At this point none of us can know. But the source for KG's wounds being worse than others in the above link (and in every other document I can find) is KG's parents, mainly her father. In several articles her father talks about her wounds being worse and he often seems to imply he knows that from paying for and reading his daughter's death certificate. See, for example, Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

It's usual for the next of kin to need a death certificate (DC) and to have to pay for copies of the DC in order to settle the estate of the deceased. It's not usual, in my experience, for a DC to contain lots of autopsy-level details (and for most deaths, there is no autopsy.) Nor would it be at all usual for a DC to make comparisons with the deaths of others-- whether the deaths were due to a mass murder, a multi-victim car accident, a natural disaster or an epidemic/pandemic. It's usual for principal causes of death, contributory causes of death and manner of death to be listed as well as specific victim information (age, date of birth , full name, sex, address, occupation, etc) So I'm not sure how SG got the information he says he has from KG's DC.

And the person discussing KG's injuries as "overkill" is former CIA and FBI agent Tracy Walder who is not involved in the case. She's just commenting on the kinds of conclusions that are usually drawn when one murder victim's wounds are noticeably worse than the wounds of others. She doesn't have firsthand information that KG's were worse, just that the parents say they were.
MOO

He won't get that specific wound information from a DC, he would have to read the actual autopsy report.

The Difference Between a Death Certificate and an Autopsy Report

A lawsuit for the wrongful death of a loved one requires a death certificate and may involve an autopsy. Learn the difference here.

www.torklaw.com

What’s On the Death Certificate?​

What death certificates tell us about the deceased person:

• Date, time and place of death
• Full name
• Gender
• Race
• Marital status and spouse’s name
• Occupation and employment status
• Education
• Veteran status
• Address at time of death
• Parent’s birth and death information
• Cause of death - stabbing with large fixed blade knife
• Manner of death - homicide

Autopsy Report​

An autopsy is a post-mortem medical examination that a forensic pathologist, coroner or medical examiner performs on the body of a deceased person. It may also include an examination of the major organs (heart, lungs, liver and brain), or only the parts of the body most relevant to the case.

 

[mmeynstyn]

Allegedly, there was an extreme difference between KG's and MM's wounds. KG's were described as "overkill" in comparison to the other 3 victims. We know that XK fought back, but even her wounds were apparently not similar to KG's.

Idaho stabbing victim’s injuries ‘significantly more brutal’

Goncalves’ injuries were significantly more brutal than her best friend Madison Mogen, which may end up being a very important piece of evidence when it comes to determining who the target wa…

www.newsnationnow.com

Hmmmm. JMO, A thought - wondering if the described "overkill" had something to do with two women being in the same bed. Maybe it angered him to see them together and he took it out on KG. I honestly believe they just stayed up late chatting and eating and fell asleep. Maybe BK thought there was more to it.? Just a thought.

 

[Boxer]

Hmmmm. JMO, A thought - wondering if the described "overkill" had something to do with two women being in the same bed. Maybe it angered him to see them together and he took it out on KG. I honestly believe they just stayed up late chatting and eating and fell asleep. Maybe BK thought there was more to it.? Just a thought.

Very possible. He seemed out of it about actual student cultural life.

 

[NCWatcher]

He won't get that specific wound information from a DC, he would have to read the actual autopsy report.

The Difference Between a Death Certificate and an Autopsy Report

A lawsuit for the wrongful death of a loved one requires a death certificate and may involve an autopsy. Learn the difference here.

www.torklaw.com

What’s On the Death Certificate?​

What death certificates tell us about the deceased person:

• Date, time and place of death
• Full name
• Gender
• Race
• Marital status and spouse’s name
• Occupation and employment status
• Education
• Veteran status
• Address at time of death
• Parent’s birth and death information
• Cause of death - stabbing with large fixed blade knife
• Manner of death - homicide

Autopsy Report​

An autopsy is a post-mortem medical examination that a forensic pathologist, coroner or medical examiner performs on the body of a deceased person. It may also include an examination of the major organs (heart, lungs, liver and brain), or only the parts of the body most relevant to the case.

Thanks. That's what I thought. Before I posted my earlier comment I had tried to look at a blank death certificate for the state of Idaho. But the site would not connect. I expect though forms and information required are pretty similar across states.

In the links I posted earlier, KG's father definitely attributed much of his knowledge about the injuries KG suffered to reading her death certificate. And in other interviews where KG's mother was also present, she said "her death certificate is the ugliest, disgusting-est piece of paper that you will ever see in your life."

Mother of Idaho murders victim Kaylee Goncalves says evidence shows she was "trapped"

Family of victim shares new details of their own investigation into what happened the night of the November 2022 murders of four University of Idaho college students and the case against suspect Bryan Kohberger.

www.cbsnews.com

Of course, anything related to the violent death of one's child could be upsetting, but as your post indicates, DC's usually don't contain truly graphic information. After all, certified copies of DCs are typically required for the executor to transfer property, to claim life insurance, and so forth.

It may turn out KG's injuries were worse than those suffered by the other 3 victims. But right now, it seems we only have her parents' word for that. And while multiple retired FBI agents have opined about KG's injuries representing "overkill," so far as I can tell, those ideas were always predicated on the parents' contention KG's injuries were worse.
MOO

 

[Swansee]

It may turn out KG's injuries were worse than those suffered by the other 3 victims. But right now, it seems we only have her parents' word for that. And while multiple retired FBI agents have opined about KG's injuries representing "overkill," so far as I can tell, those ideas were always predicated on the parents' contention KG's injuries were worse.

I believe the source of that information is simply the police. The info was mentioned in the book "while Idaho slept" (used to not be allowed to mention this one but I have seen it mentioned since, so I guess it's fair now). The author says the info came from the police. Considering the book was published very very early, this may have been disclosed way before the gag order (author spent a lot of time in Moscow talking to everyone he could early on).
Another point: before the gag order, the police was free to disclose anything they wanted to the families. And of course, the families were (and still are) free to discuss between themselves the info they received. I'd imagine they may have shared information about their daughters' deaths amongst themselves, so that may be how they can compare the severity of their wounds. Remember SG saying they "don't match".
All MOO.

 

[al66pine]

ID Death Cert's. Comparing Number or Intensity of Injuries?

Thanks. That's what I thought. Before I posted my earlier comment I had tried to look at a blank death certificate for the state of Idaho. But the site would not connect. I expect though forms and information required are pretty similar across states.

snipped for focus @NCWatcher @CoolCats TYVM @Swansee TYVM
AFAICT, states in US use the "U.S. STANDARD CERTIFICATE OF DEATH" form,* w latest version being promulgated in 2003.

Re your posts, agreeing: extreeeemely doubtful (impossible?) that those four Death Cert's have level of detail from which a layperson could draw comparisons of which victims had the "worst" or overkill wounds (even if they could see all 4 D/C).

Much more likely that reviewing all four AUTOPSY REPORTS could reveal a basis for comparison (not that one family would necessarily have access, unless shared by other vic fam's).

Re DC form, I believe the uniformity is driven largely by fed Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (.gov) &
NCHS - National Center for Health Statistics, maybe others.

There are 3 pages of specific instructions for med. ppl completing the form: "MEDICAL CERTIFIER INSTRUCTIONS for selected items on U.S. Standard Certificate of Death"

And naturally a BOOK (IIRC 100+ pages w more detail):
"(See Physicians’ Handbook or Medical Examiner/Coroner Handbook on Death Registration for instructions on all items)"

I've reviewed the DC form a few times over the past several yrs but going largely by memory ATM. Welcoming correction.


__________________________
* Sample blank form and instructions:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/death11-03final-acc.pdf

 

[NCWatcher]

I believe the source of that information is simply the police. The info was mentioned in the book "while Idaho slept" (used to not be allowed to mention this one but I have seen it mentioned since, so I guess it's fair now). The author says the info came from the police. Considering the book was published very very early, this may have been disclosed way before the gag order (author spent a lot of time in Moscow talking to everyone he could early on).
Another point: before the gag order, the police was free to disclose anything they wanted to the families. And of course, the families were (and still are) free to discuss between themselves the info they received. I'd imagine they may have shared information about their daughters' deaths amongst themselves, so that may be how they can compare the severity of their wounds. Remember SG saying they "don't match".
All MOO.

I guess that's possible although I'm not sure that book accurately portrayed what was known at the time. And every single article I can find now tracks that information to KG's father and he seems to attribute it to the death certificate. Definitely (as you say) he has been quoted several times saying the wounds "don't match."

One or two articles say something vague about "the investigation has revealed...." but when the actual source is revealed in those articles, it's KG's father. If the Goncalves were told that by the police prior to the gag order, I'm not sure why the parents would say it came from another place. I guess the parents could have been told "don't tell anybody" so they changed the source? Also, some of the parents, including the Goncalves, insisted LE was keeping them in the dark so maybe that's why they wouldn't say they got information from LE? But why even bring up the death certificate? Maybe they think most people don't know what those contain? The mother did say KG's certificate was the most ugly and disgusting document imaginable. That doesn't really match with what @al66pine has posted about the standard form.

The coroner (Mabbutt) definitely WAS talking more than she should have. Seemed to be searching for her 15 minutes of fame IMO. Her behavior was discussed here at the time and was astounding. And the parents were upset she gave details to KG's younger sister when the sister asked for them on the phone. Maybe that's where they got the information but again, why not say so?

The father said Mabbutt “embellished a bunch of stuff, like her own hypotheses of what happened and her theory of things.” So he wasn't covering for her.
Idaho murders coroner told victim’s teen sister horror death details, mother says

Would families be given copies of their family member's autopsy early on in a crime investigation? Or would they only be told what was found? I can't imagine what it's been like for these families, but if I were in their position, I don't think I'd be comparing autopsy notes about whose wounds were worse even if I were given a copy of my family member's autopsy.

For awhile, many here seemed to be 100% sure there was stalking and that it was probably MM who was stalked. Now it turns out that might not be true. And it's been pretty much accepted as gospel that KG's wounds were much worse and if so, there must have been "overkill." But there's a chance that might not be true either.
MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Pure speculation only, but I can think of a few descriptive words that might appropriately be on a death certificate of someone murdered in this way, that would be horrific to see from the family's perspective and would indicate a different magnitude of violence compared to the other victims.

I'm not suggesting knowledge of anything specific happened to KG beyond what's been publicly reported, just pointing out that there are possibilities that would fit her father's reaction and his repeated mention of the death certificate.

MOO

 

[layer]

Hmmmm. JMO, A thought - wondering if the described "overkill" had something to do with two women being in the same bed. Maybe it angered him to see them together and he took it out on KG. I honestly believe they just stayed up late chatting and eating and fell asleep. Maybe BK thought there was more to it.? Just a thought.

I think any differences between wounds are more likely to be due to the circumstances during the commission of the crime. For example, the appearance of "overkill" on one victim could result from the victim having the opportunity to put up a bigger fight, while a victim with "normal" wounds could have been hit in the right spot with the first strike and the fight was over. There could also be time variables requiring more deliberate actions on specific victims.
I really feel like this entire crime was less hot and emotional and more cold and calculated. Nothing personal - anyone there would have been slaughtered, given the opportunity.
JMHO

 

[maskedwoman]

Pure speculation only, but I can think of a few descriptive words that might appropriately be on a death certificate of someone murdered in this way, that would be horrific to see from the family's perspective and would indicate a different magnitude of violence compared to the other victims.

I'm not suggesting knowledge of anything specific happened to KG beyond what's been publicly reported, just pointing out that there are possibilities that would fit her father's reaction and his repeated mention of the death certificate.

MOO

I have read many many death certificates both following crime and being the family historian. They are notoriously brief and dry. I can think of a lot of distressing descriptors too, but I can't imagine any professional using them. Especially in such a brutal case, knowing the families will see it. MOOooo

 

[dmac55]

I think it’s possible an everyday person could confuse a death certificate with an autopsy

 

[NCWatcher]

I have read many many death certificates both following crime and being the family historian. They are notoriously brief and dry. I can think of a lot of distressing descriptors too, but I can't imagine any professional using them. Especially in such a brutal case, knowing the families will see it. MOOooo

Exactly. And copies of the death certificate usually have to be provided by the executor of the deceased's estate to all kinds of parties-- life insurance companies, banks, the DMV if the deceased owned a vehicle... They don't stay "private."
MOO