Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

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Unless Cindy realized after she got LE involved that Caylee might have drowned as a result of her and KC failing to put away the pool ladder.

Except that I don't believe anyone was swimming on Sunday, June 15, Father's Day. I believe that whole line of BS was concocted after the fact to give Casey an "accident" out if she ever admitted knowing that Caylee had died.

ETA: I think Father's Day Sunday was the huge blowup heard by the neighbor and I just don't see any "fun swimming time" happening after Cindy arrived back home from the nursing home with Caylee. I think she lashed into Casey and the argument began...
 
Unless Cindy realized after she got LE involved that Caylee might have drowned as a result of her and KC failing to put away the pool ladder.

Precisely - I was not suggesting that she knew what happened at the time, only that if this is what happened, it's either dawned on her since, or she at least thinks it's possible.
 
Question: Then why the heck would Cindy have hunted down Amy, got Amy to take her over to Tony L's apartment and proceeded to argue in front of Tony, making a big scene, then yank Casey out of Tony's, and, after finally arrivinge home at the Anthony residence, proceed to call 911???

Answer: Cindy had nothing to do with Caylee's death and didn't find out about it until after she called 911 July 15. If she'd had any inkling about what had happened, she'd have swung into full coverup mode then and she would NEVER have called 911.

I don't know bout that ..... months ago I had problems with that part. I then came to some conclusion after reading released depos that CA/KC knew someone was questioning where Caylee was. I think after the car was impounded and recovered, CA took full control the coverup and starting rolling around her theories of Caylee's disappearance to be told to those who asked. Not knowing what AH or the impound actually did smell, knowing that more questions were to be asked, CA opened pandoras box of lies and spewed lie after lie to go with her theories. I don't think CA figured on LE not believing her or KC. She figured playing the sympathy card would work.

From the time CA got KC home she had hours to initiated full cover up mode. She already had 31 days to create and refine it. 1st and 2nd call to LE was only about money. Finally with the 3rd CA claiming Caylee was kidnapped. Didn't take LE long to see through the story as being just that, a wild story. CA, a nurse, knew that 31 days would cause Caylee's remains to be decomposed. CA, pissed that KC didn't follow her directions to dispose of Caylee immediately, plants incriminating thoughts and evidence towards JG and had to create smoke and mirrors to deflect any and all suspicions against her and the family.

KC getting JB was a gift unwrapped. We still haven't seen what gift is in the box. CA/GA still refuse to acknowledge KC didn't have legal paying employment. Won't admit how much KC stole of family funds.

Won't admit their responsibility in Caylee's murder, whether direct or indirect. And this is how they honor their granddaughter.
 
Except that I don't believe anyone was swimming on Sunday, June 15, Father's Day. I believe that whole line of BS was concocted after the fact to give Casey an "accident" out if she ever admitted knowing that Caylee had died.

ETA: I think Father's Day Sunday was the huge blowup heard by the neighbor and I just don't see any "fun swimming time" happening after Cindy arrived back home from the nursing home with Caylee. I think she lashed into Casey and the argument began...

IIRC, CA arrived home with Caylee around mid-afternoon. KC was at TL's until around 7pm. CA states in her depo that when KC got home, she and Caylee were already in the pool and KC was going to get in but CA told her it was getting too chilly and she and Caylee were getting out.

Also, CA's work colleague recalls CA telling her about the pool ladder incident during the same week that Caylee was least seen, i.e. several weeks before CA discovered that Caylee was not with KC and called 911.
 
I don't know bout that ..... months ago I had problems with that part. I then came to some conclusion after reading released depos that CA/KC knew someone was questioning where Caylee was. I think after the car was impounded and recovered, CA took full control the coverup and starting rolling around her theories of Caylee's disappearance to be told to those who asked. Not knowing what AH or the impound actually did smell, knowing that more questions were to be asked, CA opened pandoras box of lies and spewed lie after lie to go with her theories. I don't think CA figured on LE not believing her or KC. She figured playing the sympathy card would work.

From the time CA got KC home she had hours to initiated full cover up mode. She already had 31 days to create and refine it. 1st and 2nd call to LE was only about money. Finally with the 3rd CA claiming Caylee was kidnapped. Didn't take LE long to see through the story as being just that, a wild story. CA, a nurse, knew that 31 days would cause Caylee's remains to be decomposed. CA, pissed that KC didn't follow her directions to dispose of Caylee immediately, plants incriminating thoughts and evidence towards JG and had to create smoke and mirrors to deflect any and all suspicions against her and the family.

KC getting JB was a gift unwrapped. We still haven't seen what gift is in the box. CA/GA still refuse to acknowledge KC didn't have legal paying employment. Won't admit how much KC stole of family funds.

Won't admit their responsibility in Caylee's murder, whether direct or indirect. And this is how they honor their granddaughter.
Bolded added by me, Chezhire.
What do you mean above when you say "...that CA/KC knew someone was questioning where Caylee was. ...???"
 
IIRC, CA arrived home with Caylee around mid-afternoon. KC was at TL's until around 7pm. CA states in her depo that when KC got home, she and Caylee were already in the pool and KC was going to get in but CA told her it was getting too chilly and she and Caylee were getting out.

Also, CA's work colleague recalls CA telling her about the pool ladder incident during the same week that Caylee was least seen, i.e. several weeks before CA discovered that Caylee was not with KC and called 911.

Again, I don't believe that Cindy or Caylee were ever in the pool. I just don't believe a word that has come out of Cindy's mouth since her 911 calls to LE. Wanna bet that George talked a bit about this little set of lies + the set of lies that he manufactured re: seeing the girls on June 16 while watching his TV to the GJ and that we'll hear about it at the trial??? ;)
 
SNIPPED: "... Also, CA's work colleague recalls CA telling her about the pool ladder incident during the same week that Caylee was least seen, i.e. several weeks before CA discovered that Caylee was not with KC and called 911."
I don't recall the co-worker saying in her statement that she was certain of the date or week.

Link, please?
 
Precisely - I was not suggesting that she knew what happened at the time, only that if this is what happened, it's either dawned on her since, or she at least thinks it's possible.

Cindy knows she's lied about this "swimming" business and I know it, too.
 
The following Myspace posts reflect what was going on between Casey and Cindy following the heated fight on June 15th with the choking and KC possibly storming out of the house with Caylee.

On July 2, 2008, KC posted she was "Currently watching: American Psycho" and the following:
"Diary of Days"

“On the worst of worst days,
remember the words spoken.
Trust no one,
only yourself.
With great power,
comes great consequence.
What is given
can be taken away.
Everyone Lies.
Everyone Dies.

On the worst of worst days,
remember the words spoken.
Hold your head high,
Smile,
Laugh,
Love unconditionally.
Tomorrow is a brand new day."

THEN on July 3, 2008, CA posted this:

"Thursday, July 03, 2008 Current mood: distraught

She came into my life unexspectedly,
just as she has left me.
This precious little angel from above
gave me strength and unconditional love.

Now she is gone and
I don’t know why.
All I am guilty of is loving her and
providing her a safe home.

Jealousy has taken her away.
Jealousy from the one person
that should be thankfull
for all of the love and support given to her.

A mother’s love is deep,
however there are limits
when one is betrayed by the one she loved
and trusted the most.

A daughter comes to her mother
for support when she is pregnant,
the mother says without hesitation it will be ok.
And it was.

But then the lies and betrayal began.

First it seemed harmless,
ah, love is blind.
A mother will look for the good in her child and
give them a chance to change.

This mother gave chance
after chance
for her daughter to change,
but instead more lies more betrayal.

What does the mother get
for giving her daughter
all of these chances?
A broken heart.

The daughter who stole money,
lots of money,
leaves without warning and
does not let her mother now speak to the baby
that her mother raised,
fed, clothed, sheltered,
paid her medical bills, etc.

Instead tells her friends
that her mother is controlling her life and
she needs her space.

No money, no future.
Where did she go?
Who is now watching out
for the little angel?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So...for those of you who think Cindy knew what had happened at some unknown point in time between June 15/16 and July 15, what do you make of the foregoing posts made by Cindy and Casey? I add that it's always intrigued me that Cindy, who'd never posted on Myspace before July 3, suddenly posted this message the day after Casey's cryptic post of the day before...
 
Question: Then why the heck would Cindy have hunted down Amy, got Amy to take her over to Tony L's apartment and proceeded to argue in front of Tony, making a big scene, then yank Casey out of Tony's, and, after finally arrivinge home at the Anthony residence, proceed to call 911???

Answer: Cindy had nothing to do with Caylee's death and didn't believe Caylee was dead until after she called 911 July 15. If she'd had any inkling about what had happened, she'd have swung into full coverup mode then and she would NEVER have called 911.

bingo - jackpot - instant winner :crazy:
 
SNIPPED: "IIRC, CA arrived home with Caylee around mid-afternoon. KC was at TL's until around 7pm. CA states in her depo that when KC got home, she and Caylee were already in the pool and KC was going to get in but CA told her it was getting too chilly and she and Caylee were getting out...."
The above post is incorrect. Casey was not at TL's all day June 15 until around 7 p.m.
See Pings for June 15 (from Case Calendar for June, http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?month=6&year=2008&c=4&do=displaymonth)
here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=243&day=2008-6-15&c=4
and from June 14:
here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=242&day=2008-6-14&c=4

So, to the contrary, Casey was at her parents' home from approx. 3:48 p.m. on Saturday, June 14, until 3:46 p.m. the next day, Father's Day, Sunday, June 15, THEN she left for Tony's, was gone almost 4 hours to the dot, arriving back at the Anthony home around 7:46 p.m.
I'm a firm believer that the argument began when Cindy arrived at the Anthony home with Caylee that afternoon, prompting Casey to flee for a few hours to TonyL's, only to return later, whereupon the fight continued escalating. There was no swimming going on after Casey left the Anthony home for those 4 hours on Father's Day Sunday.
 
I don't recall the co-worker saying in her statement that she was certain of the date or week.

Link, please?

Interview with Debbie Bennett = Pgs 13 -14

LE asks her if the conversation about the pool ladder took place before or after the one they had about the gas cans being stolen. She says a couple of days before - so since the gas can incident was 23 June ( a Monday), this conversation about the ladder must have been on Friday 21 June or earlier.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71772&page=6
 
Interview with Debbie Bennett = Pgs 13 -14

LE asks her if the conversation about the pool ladder took place before or after the one they had about the gas cans being stolen. She says a couple of days before - so since the gas can incident was 23 June ( a Monday), this conversation about the ladder must have been on Friday 21 June or earlier.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71772&page=6

Why would she bring this up at all??? At that point she is admitting that Caylee could be dead from an accident, right? So as I have thought before, you can't believe anything that they say and they would rather put on his huge lie and circus that admit KC covered up an accident. My point is, how do you even use anything they said to factor in the equation to get to the bottom of this murder or accident? You can't.
 
The above post is incorrect. Casey was not at TL's all day June 15 until around 7 p.m.
See Pings for June 15 (from Case Calendar for June, http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?month=6&year=2008&c=4&do=displaymonth)
here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=243&day=2008-6-15&c=4
and from June 14:
here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=242&day=2008-6-14&c=4

So, to the contrary, Casey was at her parents' home from approx. 3:48 p.m. on Saturday, June 14, until 3:46 p.m. the next day, Father's Day, Sunday, June 15, THEN she left for Tony's, was gone almost 4 hours to the dot, arriving back at the Anthony home around 7:46 p.m. So, Casey was only gone from Anthony home for 4 hours the entire day on Sunday, June 15, before 7 p.m.

I'm a firm believer that the argument began when Cindy arrived at the Anthony home with Caylee that afternoon, prompting Casey to flee for a few hours to TonyL's, only to return later, whereupon the fight continued escalating. There was no swimming going on after Casey left the Anthony home for those 4 hours on Father's Day Sunday.

This is a ping map analysis found from your link:

1:51 am - cell tower pings near Anthony home until . . .
9:15 am - cell tower pings near AL's apt until . . .
7:13 pm - cell tower pings near Chickasaw Trail until . . .
7:36 pm - cell tower pings near Anthony home until past midnight into the next day

To narrow down time of the argument here are the times of KC's calls and texts 6/15/2008.

While at or near the Anthony home: AM
1:51
6:32
6:33
6:34
8:31
8:56
9:15

While at or near the Anthony home: PM (subtract 12 from the time to get analog time)
12:51
12:52
13:01
14:39
14:40
14:44
14:45
15:35
15:36

By 15:46, she was back at AL's (3:46 pm); then back home by 19:36 (7:36 pm). From that time there are only a minute, give or take, between cellular activity for the most part (a few breaks of 5 to 10 minutes now and then) except for a break between 22:06 and 22:25; between 22:49 and 23:02; and between 23:04 and 23:44

So it appears that you may be correct in that KC was at home around 3.36 pm, but it also appears that she wasn't there all day but only between approx. 12.51 and 3.36pm. The first part of this analysis is also confusing because it suggests that she was at or near AL's apartment by 9.15am, and didn't ping near the A's home until after 7.13pm! So did she go to AL's but return after CA had gone to visit her father? I seem to recall that CA said she got home with Caylee about 4.00pm, but I'm not sure where I read this. Does anyone else recall this?
 
Interview with Debbie Bennett = Pgs 13 -14

LE asks her if the conversation about the pool ladder took place before or after the one they had about the gas cans being stolen. She says a couple of days before - so since the gas can incident was 23 June ( a Monday), this conversation about the ladder must have been on Friday 21 June or earlier.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71772&page=6

I think that at that time late in June, Cindy was truly buying all the BS that Debbie also spoke about in the pages preceeding this discussion, that Casey was out of town with Caylee and, at the time, simply didn't imagine that Casey, who was very much still in Orlando and without Caylee, who was deceased, was still coming and going from the Anthony home while Cindy thought she was out of town.
 
Why would she bring this up at all??? At that point she is admitting that Caylee could be dead from an accident, right? So as I have thought before, you can't believe anything that they say and they would rather put on his huge lie and circus that admit KC covered up an accident. My point is, how do you even use anything they said to factor in the equation to get to the bottom of this murder or accident? You can't.

I don't see how she would have been admitting Caylee could be dead during that conversation because it took place just a few days after she last saw KC and Caylee. She would have had no reason to even suspect that anything had happened to Caylee at that point.
 
SNIPPED: "... So it appears that you may be correct in that KC was at home around 3.36 pm, but it also appears that she wasn't there all day but only between approx. 12.51 and 3.36pm. The first part of this analysis is also confusing because it suggests that she was at or near AL's apartment by 9.15am, and didn't ping near the A's home until after 7.13pm! So did she go to AL's but return after CA had gone to visit her father? I seem to recall that CA said she got home with Caylee about 4.00pm, but I'm not sure where I read this. Does anyone else recall this?

She was at the Anthony home from 12:51 p.m. to 3: 46 p.m. - and if we go with your recollection that Cindy came home from the nursing home with Caylee in the "early afternoon," I'd say I'm right and the argument began during that time frame, and escalated upon Casey's arriving back home that evening around 7:46 p.m.
 
I know the 'accident' theories are largely unsupported on this forum but here's a 'what if?' -

What if - the pool ladder was not put away on the evening of the 15 June. CA thought KC had done it, or KC thought CA had done it, or neither thought about it at all, because they were too busy going at each other like a pair of bulldogs!

The next day, Caylee wanders out into the back yard. She's been pestering KC to take her in the pool, but KC is too busy texting, chatting and doing stuff on her PC. Caylee gets impatient and bored, wanders over to the pool and 'oh goody', the ladder is all ready for her.........

If this did happen, both CA and KC would know full well WHY the ladder was not put away and both would feel responsible for Caylee's death, but they clearly like to blame anyone but themselves. KC may secretly blame CA, but instead pins the blame for Caylee's 'disappearance' on the imaginanny. CA secretly blames KC, but knows she should have checked the ladder, so in order to keep both herself and KC off the hook, she runs with KC's story and adds a few extra 'culprits' of her own. I'm not sure they've ever talked about this, or that CA knew from the beginning that this is what might have happened - but she could have worked it out for herself!

This theory might explain -
The voracity of both KC's and CA's efforts to lead everyone away from the truth.
KC's comment to CA in one of the jail visits - 'don't worry, I haven't said anything' - possibly in reference to the fight.
The ladder/ yard gate open evidence
No shoes found with Caylee
No fabric from Caylee's T shirt found - chlorinated water + decomp. process = excelerated rotting?
Raised levels of chloroform found in the car trunk - chlorinated water + decomp. process?
KC's comment to CA during a jail visit, when CA tells her that the media are suggesting that Caylee may have drowned - KC says 'Surprise, surprise!' From my experience, this response is most commonly used when someone has 'hit the nail on the head' - i.e. they've got it right!
KC's apparent lack of sympathy towards CA when she was crying during a jail visit - 'why's she crying already?'. Translate that to 'I've got no sympathy for you - it's your fault that Caylee is dead'.

In this scenario, they both would probably feel that they had separately caused Caylee's death, but it's also their unspoken and unshared joint guilty secret. So, in respect of your post, I'm not sure that GA or LA are knowingly covering for anyone, but CA could certainly be covering for both herself and KC and be pulling the others along with her!

For many weeks, your accidental drowning theory was exactly my theory, too, Devon. However, as time passed and evidence was released, including videos of the A's jail visits, I've had to change my mind.

Knowing what I now know about KC and CA's personalities, and their relationship, I cannot imagine KC assuming ANY responsibility whatsoever for the pool ladder being left up, resulting in Caylee's accidental drowning. Even if CA had specifically told KC to put the ladder away the night of June 15th, KC would have denied hearing that and/or blamed CA for putting it there in the first place. As soon as KC discovered Caylee in that pool, she'd have gotten Cindy on the phone and gone on the attack even before she called 911!

Even if KC didn't do that back in June, she'd certainly have turned on Cindy and blamed her for the pool ladder in July as soon as she was arrested and lawyered up. Once KC told that "truth" to Baez, he'd have been telling this story to LE and the media. KC has a venomous love-hate relationship with Cindy, and she wouldn't spend one day in jail to spare her mother. Furthermore, if KC had told the story about wanting to shield Cindy from knowing Cindy was responsible for Caylee drowning, KC would have looked like a saintly, devoted daughter, and a tragic mother.

And even if KC hadn't come up with that story while in jail, she surely would have worked it out with Cindy when she was home on bond. That explanation would have made Caylee's death accidental, and the whole tale would have ended then and there--with an outpouring of public sympathy for all the A's.

There was just one obstacle to that--one loose end that made this accidental drowning alibi completely implausible and impossible for the A's to pull off: The police would have insisted on knowing what KC did with Caylee's body.

The answer would have turned out to be, in essence: "Well, I wrapped duct tape around her head, then I bagged her up in double garbage bags and drove around with her in my trunk for a few days, while I stayed at my new boyfriend's apartment and partied with friends.

Her body started getting lumpy and icky in the bags, so I went by my parents' house and got a laundry basket and plopped her into that, too. Some of her had leaked out into my trunk, so I decided I needed to get her out of there before my trunk was ruined or someone saw her there. Finally, I decided to dump her in the woods behind my house where people dump old tires and trash. I'll show you where she is, but it might be flooded, or animals may have dragged her off. Oh, and we'll have to be careful of big snakes...."

There is an inhuman heartlessness in KC's treatment of her own daughter's dead body that completely negates the possibility that she would try to shield anyone other than herself from blame. I also think that even she recognized that no one else would ever be able to "understand" or overlook her treatment and disposal of Caylee's remains.

For what it's worth, because of the ladder being found by the pool with the gate open, I still think that KC either deliberately drowned Caylee, or that immediately after Caylee died, KC attempted to make it look like a drowning, then gave up that plan for some reason.

Any further thoughts, Devon. :)
 
She was at the Anthony home from 12:51 p.m. to 3: 46 p.m. - and if we go with your recollection that Cindy came home from the nursing home with Caylee in the "early afternoon," I'd say I'm right and the argument began during that time frame, and escalated upon Casey's arriving back home that evening around 7:46 p.m.

Well I actually said mid-afternoon, and I seem to recall something about it being around 4.00pm (that's mid-afternoon in my head), but until I can find the relevant info. I'll agree to disagree with you. :crazy: :)
 
For many weeks, your accidental drowning theory was exactly my theory, too, Devon. However, as time passed and evidence was released, including videos of the A's jail visits, I've had to change my mind.

Knowing what I now know about KC and CA's personalities, and their relationship, I cannot imagine KC assuming ANY responsibility whatsoever for the pool ladder being left up, resulting in Caylee's accidental drowning. Even if CA had specifically told KC to put the ladder away the night of June 15th, KC would have denied hearing that and/or blamed CA for putting it there in the first place. As soon as KC discovered Caylee in that pool, she'd have gotten Cindy on the phone and gone on the attack even before she called 911!

Even if KC didn't do that back in June, she'd certainly have turned on Cindy and blamed her for the pool ladder in July as soon as she was arrested and lawyered up. Once KC told that "truth" to Baez, he'd have been telling this story to LE and the media. KC has a venomous love-hate relationship with Cindy, and she wouldn't spend one day in jail to spare her mother. Furthermore, if KC had told the story about wanting to shield Cindy from knowing Cindy was responsible for Caylee drowning, KC would have looked like a saintly, devoted daughter, and a tragic mother.

And even if KC hadn't come up with that story while in jail, she surely would have worked it out with Cindy when she was home on bond. That explanation would have made Caylee's death accidental, and the whole tale would have ended then and there--with an outpouring of public sympathy for all the A's.

There was just one obstacle to that--one loose end that made this accidental drowning alibi completely implausible and impossible for the A's to pull off: The police would have insisted on knowing what KC did with Caylee's body.

The answer would have turned out to be, in essence: "Well, I wrapped duct tape around her head, then I bagged her up in double garbage bags and drove around with her in my trunk for a few days, while I stayed at my new boyfriend's apartment and partied with friends.

Her body started getting lumpy and icky in the bags, so I went by my parents' house and got a laundry basket and plopped her into that, too. Some of her had leaked out into my trunk, so I decided I needed to get her out of there before my trunk was ruined or someone saw her there. Finally, I decided to dump her in the woods behind my house where people dump old tires and trash. I'll show you where she is, but it might be flooded, or animals may have dragged her off. Oh, and we'll have to be careful of big snakes...."

There is an inhuman heartlessness in KC's treatment of her own daughter's dead body that completely negates the possibility that she would try to shield anyone other than herself from blame. I also think that even she recognized that no one else would ever be able to "understand" or overlook her treatment and disposal of Caylee's remains.

For what it's worth, because of the ladder being found by the pool with the gate open, I still think that KC either deliberately drowned Caylee, or that immediately after Caylee died, KC attempted to make it look like a drowning, then gave up that plan for some reason.

Any further thoughts, Devon. :)


:clap::clap::clap:AMAZING post!!! I completely agree!! Well said!
 
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