Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

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Hey - Per QuietStorm, she/he used the AT&T records, too, as posted at WS by Musikman - see line 41 of her screen shot of her list here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2791369#post2791369

Now...I'm just waiting for someone to help me undestand what's correct re: the pings and where the heck Casey was on Sunday, June 15... :D

Here's an image of the actual AT&T pdf records.. hopefully it's legible as I'm not too keen with the image stuff. The latitude and longitude are on the far right. You can also see all the 6/15 pings on Georgia PI's map here too. The map is also consistent with Bond's earlier accounting.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...606,-81.319427&spn=0.269675,0.432587&t=h&z=11

picture.php
 
Bolded by me, Friday. (<--I like the way you include your name :)) Do you mean that you think GA admitted those were lies to the GJ?
I sure do, Friday. I sure do.

I'm not completely certain where you stand, Chez, but based on the above, I have always believed that Cindy had no knowledge--not even a suspicion--that Caylee wasn't with Casey prior to the night of July 15th. I also believe that until the very moment Cindy ended her last 911 call, she was being 100% authentic.

After that moment, however, my belief in her integrity and even her decency...ends.

I agree with you. I think Cindy was in the complete dark prior to July 15. George, on the other hand, is a different story.
 
I don't trust Cindy either, but if she had any involvement or idea what had happened to Caylee back around June 15+, she would not have called 911 July 15. She would have swung into total coverup mode waaay before she finally did, for herself and for Casey.

In terms of her not answering Casey's calls for some time following June 15, if that's true (which is not my recollection, but I'm going with it for this posts purposes) I reconcile that with my belief that Cindy had told Casey to get the heck out of her home the evening of the huge blowup on June 15. Cindy was trying to teach Casey a lesson after that - despite how hard it was not to get updates on how Caylee was doing, etc.

Never in a million years would it have crossed Cindy's mind that Casey would kill Caylee. I don't think Cindy had any idea prior to realizing that Casey had killed Caylee that Casey despised her more than she loved Caylee.

I know.. you make great points and I know in my logical mind, like I said, that Casey more than likely did this.

ugh- Gotta go get my son from the bus! (why on earth do the school bus companies put the bus stops so far from peoples homes these days??)
 
I agree. She was worried about Caylee being away with KC and after the third 911 call it all ended and she was on the worng side

I agree, although I think CA had suspicions that she didn't investigate, and it's now the biggest regret of her life. I think she had a little voice telling her something wasn't right, but a louder voice was telling her that KC would never do something so horrible..... and go on with her life like she did.
 
I've posted the question to all in the thread, http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3640648#post3640648 , as QuietStorm says she used the same AT&T phone records everyone else here at WS has, as uploaded by Musikman.
I'll just wait for a response. :)

I like that approach too, Chez. That way we don't subject this thread to the follow-up. I'll also do a verification in addition to Lil's. FWIW...and my memory is a bit foggy, but, I seem to recall working w/ QS when we were doing all of this early on. There were plenty of errors...mainly OCR errors (e.g. software saw a 7's as 1's, etc) and look-up table errors (e.g. our list of tower longs & lats was incomplete, so, Excel defaulted to the next tower in the look-up table)...things like that. The reference links seem to be stuff from very early on in the case (Oct'08 and earlier)...when we were all still debugging the stuff above. And after all of that I would be the first to say I wouldn't be surprised to find an error even today...so...thanks for pointing it out and I'll also give it a looksee. :blowkiss:

If I find my post on this thread re: painting a picture of the day 6/15 to be in error due to something being off in the spreadsheet, I'll come back to edit & bump it. However, FWIW, Lil's already done us a huge favor by checking 'the ping Bible'...which is the original AT&T pdf. :blowkiss:
 
how long did the A's have the pontiac b4 the cops received it?
 
It is worth re-reading. The way the story unfolds is very simple in that KC's lies were obviously ones that a murderer would use to keep people at bay.

It is also amazing to wonder what KC would have done had CA agreed to pick Caylee up in the morning.

In that case, when CA awoke, KC would have been gone, along with one of the family cars, their credit cards, check books, jewelry, and every dollar in the house. IMO
 
Bolded by me, Friday. (<--I like the way you include your name :)) Do you mean that you think GA admitted those were lies to the GJ?

+1 :thumb:

I agree. IMHO, George had to goto the GJ and explain that the last time he saw Caylee was with Casey @ Hopespring when he left for work.

Phone records show that George called Hopespring home phone number 1 minute before he called Casey's cell @ 3:04PM. The duration of the call to the home phone number was 17seconds which appears to be the length of their answering machine message before the tone, owing to calls Casey made to the home number later when no one was home with the same duration.

So...Cindy was at work. Lee wasn't there. The ONLY reason George would call the Hopespring home phone number would be because he knew Casey was there when he left for work. This conclusion is further reinforced by his immediately calling Casey's cell after he got the answering machine message & tone and it became obvious that Casey wasn't going to pick-up.

Detailed on the "6/9 vs. 6/16..." thread in the case analysis forum. IMHO, the story we've all heard George tell was what happened on 6/9.

So...IMHO, in front of the Grand Jury George, father of the accused, grandfather of the victim testified that he saw Casey (with or without Caylee) when he left for work ~2:30PM at a time AFTER Casey stated dropping off Caylee @ Sawgrass "between 9AM - 1PM" on 6/16 (even allowing Casey's go-with-the-flow 6/9 date on the statement error :rolleyes:)
 
Here's an image of the actual AT&T pdf records.. hopefully it's legible as I'm not too keen with the image stuff. The latitude and longitude are on the far right. You can also see all the 6/15 pings on Georgia PI's map here too. The map is also consistent with Bond's earlier accounting.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...606,-81.319427&spn=0.269675,0.432587&t=h&z=11

picture.php

Okay - and here's what QuietStorm used, which she says is based on the AT&T phone records:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2768818#post2768818
 
I posted a request in the June 15 ping entry for the case references here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3640648#post3640648

Have you since spoken with QuietStorm to reconcile? She'd been asking you guys for the Excel file back in October, see here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2805537#post2805537
I've been communicating with QS recently, so I know she's still following all of this.
Either way, the WS Case Calendar needs to be changed to reflect the true pings and locations.
TIA!
:blowkiss:

OMG, the uncertainty is driving me crazy. This is the worst possible day, and time period, to have a questionable "glitch," in where KC was...and when. :confused: :banghead:

I am anxiously awaiting confirmation one way or another. For some reason, I've always thought in terms of Chez's time frame which certainly lends itself better to a rip-roaring fight erupting as soon as CA got home because of something CA discovered that day, either from Shirley or from Caylee. Although I guess it doesn't really matter.

Either way, it appears Cindy did not have her cell phone with her on her Father's Day trip to Mt. Dora, and that she phoned KC almost immediately when she got home. A voice mail lasting 36 seconds allows for rather a lot of one-way conversation with someone you saw a few hours ago and expect to see again very quickly.
 
In that case, when CA awoke, KC would have been gone, along with one of the family cars, their credit cards, check books, jewelry, and every dollar in the house. IMO

See I don't think she would have left. She really enjoyed her new life with TL - would she have told TL to run away with her? I think the house would have gone on fire. I think when pushed KC is capable of many horrible things.
 
*snipped & separated to enable comments*

It sure would be helpful if the doll & the shoes & the duct tape all pointed in the same direction...but, IMHO, they seem to be in conflict w/ the theories my brain formulates. Variations on one theory we batted around some time ago was Caylee being placed in her carseat FOR her nap and succumbing to the heat...or carbon monoxide poisoning if the Pontiac were pulled in the garage & left running for any period of time. This seems less even likely now IMHO w/ George's call to the house @ 3:03 & Casey's cell @ 3:04 indicating to me that George knew Casey was @ Hopespring, therefore, Casey wasn't covertly returning home - so no need (& George @ home too) for Caylee to be napping in the car. The doll in the car, the overnight backpack, the drive to Gentiva area & flurry calls to Cindy near her quitting time all seem to me to support that murder was not in the plan @ 4:11PM when Casey left G&C's. Putting Caylee in the car w/o shoes is something to consider, but, not make-or-break stuff for me...esp. not as important as the doll being in the car. Recall that Casey told LE that Caylee commented about her shoes on the fictitious 7/15 call...not about Caylee not having her 'mama' doll :waitasec:

All that being said...working out the duct tape just piles on extra confusion for me :confused:


FWIW, consider the details worked out here on the Pontiac thread. I feel comfortable that Casey truly ran outta gas @ Amscot 6/27. I had to reverse my long-held opinion of that being a crafty plot to prevent taking Tony to the airport 6/30AM in a decomp-smelling car...but, so be it.

*snipped & separated to enable comments*

I've been curious about the nexus of (a) Casey dumping Caylee on Cindy the week of 6/2-6/9, (b) what appears to be Cindy's refusal to keep Caylee 6/9PM, and (c) speculated Casey keeping Caylee from Cindy somewhat more than usual 6/10-6/15 until Father's Day...then (d) Casey's reference 7/15 to maybe really being a, "spiteful biotch". This suggests to me Casey was playing a game of payback with Cindy...using Caylee as the pawn. And in the course of 6/15 'fight' Cindy called Casey the SB because of this game-playing. That line of thinking has Cindy seeing things 6/16-7/3 as simply an escalation of the on-going battle.


Cindy did answer calls from Casey. Cindy's foray into finding Casey happened on 7/2-7/3 when Casey sent her to Universal on a wild good chase. Cindy dispatched Lee to find them at all hours of the night and wee hours of the morning. It is true that communication between Cindy & Casey switched to texting...the volume of which exploded post 6/17 vs. a single text message prior to 6/15.


This was Cindy's account of how it happened (e.g. talking to Casey on the phone and relaying the stolen gas cans story), however, the cell records don't support this sequence of events, IMHO.


Cindy actually didn't phone or warn Casey specifically that the car had been found. Cindy texted Casey to contact her ASAP...major problem (or something very similar). We worked out on the 7/15 ping thread the details of 7/15 trying to determine if Casey had been tipped off by Cindy or Amy what was about to transpire. Strong evidence to suggest Casey was none the wiser. Speculation based on the texting that was going on was that Casey thought Amy's camera had been repaired and shipped to G&C's...and that was somehow the major problem Cindy was referring to...of course, that's just one possiblity.

Hope that helps.

I know you didn't direct this toward me but it does help. thanks :)

I didn't answer your question earlier only because by the time I read your post I'd responded to whisper about the same basic question. I hope you don't think I was avoiding your question! I am not ashamed to admit that I have come to not only trust and value your opinion but your information and knowledge as well. I rarely double check any information you provide anymore (I triple check and then some any information I ever claim as fact)- every time I have in the past it has always been correct or if it isn't YOU come back and amend it yourself when nobody would ever have been the wiser had you not. This is no small thing coming from a person who doesn't even trust herself LOL.

Anyway, my point is, I want to thank you for your hard work and being willing to share your knowledge with us all.. always in an unbiased, honest and kind manner! :blowkiss:
 
OMG, the uncertainty is driving me crazy. This is the worst possible day, and time period, to have a questionable "glitch," in where KC was...and when. :confused: :banghead:

I am anxiously awaiting confirmation one way or another. For some reason, I've always thought in terms of Chez's time frame which certainly lends itself better to a rip-roaring fight erupting as soon as CA got home because of something CA discovered that day, either from Shirley or from Caylee. Although I guess it doesn't really matter.

Either way, it appears Cindy did not have her cell phone with her on her Father's Day trip to Mt. Dora, and that she phoned KC almost immediately when she got home. A voice mail lasting 36 seconds allows for rather a lot of one-way conversation with someone you saw a few hours ago and expect to see again very quickly.

Let not your heart be troubled, Friday. :)

...in addition to TexasLil, I also verified to the AT&T records as well as Georgia PI's ping maps (as Lil did also). I stand on the account I posted earlier.

FWIW, the work Chezhire is referencing was done back in October '08. Not saying/implying anything about the quality of that work at all ...we were all fumbling through OCR'd versions of the data, finding Excel bugs, etc. etc. back then. Everyone working on the cell records has found errors along the way. There was a tremendous amount of teamwork that went into what we have today, including the work QS did.

ETA: Just to be perfectly clear...I have nothing but the greatest respect for QS' work.
 
FWIW...some info to use in lining up theories 'bout what happened 6/15...

Per E-Pass records here it appears that Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora around ~9AM, 6/16 (see Conway toll 9:27AM)

Per cell pings, Casey left G&C's just after ~9AM and arrived @ Tony's ~9:15AM.

Per E-Pass records (and consistent w/ statements) it appears Cindy & Caylee returned home to Hopespring ~3PM (see matching Conway toll @ 2:33PM).

Per cell records...

@ 3:35PM Cindy called Casey's cell from the Hopespring home phone. Casey let this call roll to vmail, and Cindy left a 36 second vmail.

@ 3:45PM Kyle called Casey's cell phone and Casey let this one roll to vmail also. At no time during this period does Casey interact w/ her phone.

@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message.

...2 hours pass, w/ no activity on Casey's cell, @ 7:06PM Casey begins a text dialogue w/ Tony while she is still near his apartment. The pings from this conversation indicate Casey left Tony's ~7:06PM.

@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, calls G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.

@ 7:36PM Casey arrived @ G&C's Hopespring home.

...between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey is engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy). The single greatest lapse between their texts was 11minutes @ 8:56 w/ most of them in the 2 minute range.

@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39minutes begins. (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")

@ 10:06PM Casey ends the cell inactivity after receiving a text from Tony by placing a call to Tony and talking w/ him for 10minutes (IMHO, this also would seem to be indicative of the fight having just taken place)

@ 10:25PM the heavy texting between Casey and Tony resumes for the balance of the night...with a 40minute break @ 11PM.

Some other things to consider...

IIRC, George was @ work 6/15PM...based on his work schedule he would've been gone or in the process of leaving about the time Cindy & Caylee returned to Hopespring that afternoon.

I believe Caylee's naptime was typically 1-3PM. Since Caylee was @ Shirley's, etc. during her normal naptime, Caylee likely fell asleep in her carseat on the ride back to Hopespring (speculation).

Cindy didn't fire off several calls to Casey to come home. She simply left a vmail. Even when Casey didn't respond. No add'l calls from Cindy.

Casey was casual about coming home. She may have seen the missed call# and known about being called from Hopespring, but, she didn't check her vmail. She simply did her own thing for another couple of hours and called when she was on her way home.

There appears to be an opportunity for Cindy & Caylee to have gone for a swim after arriving @ Hopespring after Caylee, perhaps, finished her nap. Recall they had eaten @ Shirley's. Dunno if they needed to eat again.

By 9:26PM a tired Caylee should've already been in bed asleep. IIRC, Caylee typically co-slept w/ Casey in her room. With George @ work still, and Lee nowhere around, this would've given the rest of the house to Cindy & Casey to have it out. By this time in the evening it would also seem to be quiet enough in the neighborhood that a shouting match would've been overheard...esp. if they carried it out into the backyard...

This scenario would have Casey going into her bedroom (closing the door presumably) with Caylee already asleep after "the fight" if it indeed occurred @ 9:26-10:06PM.

For 6/15 post-fight-smothering theory proponents it would appear Casey had ~35 minutes of cooling off from the time she resumed texting w/ Tony (perhaps in her room w/ Caylee) until a 40minute period of cell inactivity began. Not that Casey would've required more than a few minutes to accomplish a smothering...just that it might entail more than just the act itself. Could also just be something like a time to remove make-up, etc. FWIW.

Hope that helps paint a picture of the day.

Bumping for further discussion now that accuracy is verified. (not that I ever doubted you Bond!) :blowkiss:
 
Chezhire - i think of this all the time. WOuld there have been a gas leak and an unfortunate accident?

Really scary to think of what that crazy girl would have done if given a few more hours. I have never seen her as an innocent girl fallen victim to her mother.

She is evil in every sense of the word - Lee's account alone shows how sick she is, throw in her taking Le to Universal Studios down the hall to OOPS not her OFFICE...and her voice as she is making up the lies - so convincing. so evil.
so capable of so much more horror.

Had she been given one more day - I feel she would have had more victims. NO WAY was she leaving HER NEW life with Tony.

She is dangerous and if she is left free she will do it again. She is very young and just starting out her life of crime. I believe Casey is the type of criminal person that would eliminate obstacles in her way throughout her life. A child? Her child? A friend? A rival? A girl flirting with her man?

At 23 this was her first reaction to life not falling into the place she wanted it. Dangerous girl. I don't know how anyone else can not see that.

She's one sick person. Scary sick. She was planning on having Amy move into that house with her... :eek:
 
Let not your heart be troubled, Friday. :)

...in addition to TexasLil, I also verified to the AT&T records as well as Georgia PI's ping maps (as Lil did also). I stand on the account I posted earlier.

FWIW, the work Chezhire is referencing was done back in October '08. Not saying/implying anything about the quality of that work at all ...we were all fumbling through OCR'd versions of the data, finding Excel bugs, etc. etc. back then. Everyone working on the cell records has found errors along the way. There was a tremendous amount of teamwork that went into what we have today, including the work QS did.

When were Georgia PI's ping maps created? I thought that they were done in October of 2008, too... :waitasec:
 
I sure do, Friday. I sure do.

I agree with you. I think Cindy was in the complete dark prior to July 15. George, on the other hand, is a different story.

Oh, so you think George knew about Caylee's fate prior to July 15, and that he assisted KC in covering up/hiding the truth from CA prior to 7/15?

Okay, but how does that jive with his enraged behavior about KC in front of his friend at the house (either the night of July 15th or the night KC was bonded out, I can't remember.) However, I do recall that GA shouted something like, "If you want to know where Caylee is, ask that b!itch in the bedroom! She knows!"

And if he was KC's co-conspirator way back then, why would he have gotten LE aside and warned them that KC knows more than she's saying?

<Throwing my hands up in the air> I give up. I am deviousness-impaired. :banghead:
 
I know you didn't direct this toward me but it does help. thanks :)

I didn't answer your question earlier only because by the time I read your post I'd responded to whisper about the same basic question. I hope you don't think I was avoiding your question! I am not ashamed to admit that I have come to not only trust and value your opinion but your information and knowledge as well. I rarely double check any information you provide anymore (I triple check and then some any information I ever claim as fact)- every time I have in the past it has always been correct or if it isn't YOU come back and amend it yourself when nobody would ever have been the wiser had you not. This is no small thing coming from a person who doesn't even trust herself LOL.

Anyway, my point is, I want to thank you for your hard work and being willing to share your knowledge with us all.. always in an unbiased, honest and kind manner! :blowkiss:

:blushing: Well... (where's that 'aw shucks' smilie when you need it?)

Thanks for the kind words, OneLost. Although I highly recommend you double/triple check me :) If I'm lucky enough to get something right its likely because I've been tossing it around w/ some other WS's and they are kind enough to set me straight. :) I'm sure I've set the record for using "IIRC" in my posts...and I do that for a reason :rolleyes:

If/when you wanna toss around the key sticking points I'd be interested in hearing them. Not because I wanna convince you one way or the other, but, because it'll prolly be a perspective that (a) I haven't thought of yet, and (b) the defense prolly has...so...it might be time well spent to noodle on 'em.

Thanks! :blowkiss:
 
I am not sure but I am think a day and a half.

Thanks Mendara, might be beating an old horse here, but if they had it for that long i suppose it is possible GA or CA dumped the remains
 
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