Motive For Murder

[nursebeeme]

(thinking out loud)

if you were planning to murder someone when you confronted them why would you leave a trail like a text message pointing right back to you?

why would you do it in a building that requires multiple swiping of cards... another trail leading right back to you?

why would you leave the body inside of the building where the person was last seen? wouldn't you have thought disposal out ahead of time? wouldn't you think the last place the person was seen (her swipe into the same building you are in) would be the first place that people would look for her?

I don't think that Raymond Clark was an idiot. I don't think he planned this. I think his plan was to confront Annie about something he perceived to be a serious problem (blow out of proportion in his controlling mind).

So, for this guy who "had" to have control... what was he in control of? The cleanliness of the mouse cages and their condition. Something happened to make him feel he had lost this control... he lost it and snapped.

He entered Amistad ten times the day that she was last seen and was noted to be almost franticly going thru the basement... even into rooms that he did not normally go into. He was desperate after he snapped... I even think that he knew about all of the cameras and knew he could never get her out of the building. He even entered the building after hours. All of those abnormal swipes were desperate and not well thought out... this speaks to me of his possible state of mind: frantic, paniced, desperate, not thinking clearly, focused on cleaning up instead of what may happen down the road... that when LE came to look for this girl they would notice the swiping, the abnormal times and amounts of swiping on his part, etc.

The look on his face in the car to me: resigned. Why didn't he take the bail assessment? Lawyer says it was upon advice of counsel... to perhaps make him look like he acknowledged he did this and did not deserve bail? Or is it even remotely possible that he does understand what he did and has a modicum of remorse?

((nurse ducks for having a different opinion but I feel this case is different on many levels..... and sorry if my opinion has offended anyone at all))

 

[f_stills]

It was reported that she was also beaten badly. That's rage.

Hi, can you give me a link to that report? All I've heard so far was that the cause of death was traumatic asphyxia. I didn't know she was also beaten.

Also, anyone pick up on any word in the news media about mutilation of the body? I think that Fox 61 news reporter either misspoke when he said "took apart" the body; had bad sources that misinformed him; or they are keeping that detail under wraps as the investigation continues.

 

[Normcar21]

Hi, Normcar, that's a provocative idea. I think that pure adrenaline responses sometimes override rational thought. Some one once told me that the best bar bouncers operate on such a low tension level that, in one sense, they're always above the brawl.

I like that phrase, "above the brawl." Unfortunately, the perp here was not above the brawl because apparently he was in la la land and had lost touch with perspective, IMO.

I agree fully with your phrase: pure adrenaline responses sometimes override rational thought

 

['Ailina]

(thinking out loud)

if you were planning to murder someone when you confronted them why would you leave a trail like a text message pointing right back to you?

why would you do it in a building that requires multiple swiping of cards... another trail leading right back to you?

why would you leave the body inside of the building where the person was last seen? wouldn't you have thought disposal out ahead of time? wouldn't you think the last place the person was seen (her swipe into the same building you are in) would be the first place that people would look for her?

I don't think that Raymond Clark was an idiot. I don't think he planned this. I think his plan was to confront Annie about something he perceived to be a serious problem (blow out of proportion in his controlling mind).

So, for this guy who "had" to have control... what was he in control of? The cleanliness of the mouse cages and their condition. Something happened to make him feel he had lost this control... he lost it and snapped.

He entered Amistad ten times the day that she was last seen and was noted to be almost franticly going thru the basement... even into rooms that he did not normally go into. He was desperate after he snapped... I even think that he knew about all of the cameras and knew he could never get her out of the building. He even entered the building after hours. All of those abnormal swipes were desperate and not well thought out... this speaks to me of his possible state of mind: frantic, paniced, desperate, not thinking clearly, focused on cleaning up instead of what may happen down the road... that when LE came to look for this girl they would notice the swiping, the abnormal times and amounts of swiping on his part, etc.

The look on his face in the car to me: resigned. Why didn't he take the bail assessment? Lawyer says it was upon advice of counsel... to perhaps make him look like he acknowledged he did this and did not deserve bail? Or is it even remotely possible that he does understand what he did and has a modicum of remorse?

((nurse ducks for having a different opinion but I feel this case is different on many levels..... and sorry if my opinion has offended anyone at all))

Actually, nursebee, my thoughts and opinions on this case have evolved since the beginning, and I find my perspective is aligned with yours. (Feels almost shameful to me, like I'm "sympathizing," but that's an issue I've got to work out on my own.)

We may not know if there's any credence to this until/unless Clark speaks for himself. And then, it's always questionable whether or not he's sincere, but for the sake of possibilities, I think it's entirely possible -- if not a bit likely -- he is remorseful, perhaps loathing himself for losing control the way he did.

Now, he may try to dodge justice, which is unacceptable. True remorse is not only feeling bad for what you've done, but also accepting the consequences that go along with the action.

We just don't know at this point. But I'm with you on your perspective here. Ducking down with ya.

 

[Normcar21]

nurse, you have a way with words:

All of those abnormal swipes were desperate

 

[scandi]

(thinking out loud)

if you were planning to murder someone when you confronted them why would you leave a trail like a text message pointing right back to you?

why would you do it in a building that requires multiple swiping of cards... another trail leading right back to you?

why would you leave the body inside of the building where the person was last seen? wouldn't you have thought disposal out ahead of time? wouldn't you think the last place the person was seen (her swipe into the same building you are in) would be the first place that people would look for her?

I don't think that Raymond Clark was an idiot. I don't think he planned this. I think his plan was to confront Annie about something he perceived to be a serious problem (blow out of proportion in his controlling mind).

So, for this guy who "had" to have control... what was he in control of? The cleanliness of the mouse cages and their condition. Something happened to make him feel he had lost this control... he lost it and snapped.

He entered Amistad ten times the day that she was last seen and was noted to be almost franticly going thru the basement... even into rooms that he did not normally go into. He was desperate after he snapped... I even think that he knew about all of the cameras and knew he could never get her out of the building. He even entered the building after hours. All of those abnormal swipes were desperate and not well thought out... this speaks to me of his possible state of mind: frantic, paniced, desperate, not thinking clearly, focused on cleaning up instead of what may happen down the road... that when LE came to look for this girl they would notice the swiping, the abnormal times and amounts of swiping on his part, etc.

The look on his face in the car to me: resigned. Why didn't he take the bail assessment? Lawyer says it was upon advice of counsel... to perhaps make him look like he acknowledged he did this and did not deserve bail? Or is it even remotely possible that he does understand what he did and has a modicum of remorse?

((nurse ducks for having a different opinion but I feel this case is different on many levels..... and sorry if my opinion has offended anyone at all))

Thanks for your perspective Nurse. After reading your last 3 paragraphs I see his mind was frazzled, disjointed and he could not focus. I can see with his movements he knew he had to get her out of Amistad and yet think he might have even forgot where he put the clothes.

It turned out he was the mouse and trapped himself IMO

 

[Normcar21]

It turned out he was the mouse and trapped himself IMO

Wow, great phrase Scandi! And IMO accurate

I "almost" feel sorry for the guy, then I think about L

 

[nursebeeme]

Actually, nursebee, my thoughts and opinions on this case have evolved since the beginning, and I find my perspective is aligned with yours. (Feels almost shameful to me, like I'm "sympathizing," but that's an issue I've got to work out on my own.)

We may not know if there's any credence to this until/unless Clark speaks for himself. And then, it's always questionable whether or not he's sincere, but for the sake of possibilities, I think it's entirely possible -- if not a bit likely -- he is remorseful, perhaps loathing himself for losing control the way he did.

Now, he may try to dodge justice, which is unacceptable. True remorse is not only feeling bad for what you've done, but also accepting the consequences that go along with the action.

We just don't know at this point. But I'm with you on your perspective here. Ducking down with ya.

bold is mine... and mine has as well! I think when I put it in perspective... why nothing lined up...(after hearing LE say the words workplace violence) when I thought about what would be different in other cases.. For one they would not involve a missing person. They are usually witnessed or quickly resolved.

I think the location of the crime has everything to do with what followed and what makes it different than other similar cases if we are to believe LE when they say that this is indeed a case of workplace violence.

Hard to swallow, and even harder for me to write! I actually am ducking from my own self at times for even expressing this opinion! I just have this feeling in my bones and wanted to see if anyone else was thinking along remotely similar lines. Thanks for sharing that!

 

[nursebeeme]

nurse, you have a way with words:

All of those abnormal swipes were desperate

LOL! It sounds like a sort of star trek language! LOLOLOL

 

[Paulette]

That's what I mean ~ I think he perceived that she should be lower than himself and she probably challenged him one too many times which set him off. I still believe it's possible this wasn't a spur of the moment crime but the end result of a deep seated resentment and developed hatred. MOO

Sorry. I started reading on page 22. There are so many posts in such a short time, I'd never be able to catch up.

I think it was something like this: :croc: Quick as a flash he lashed out & before he could get control of himself, it was all over.

I saw a man do this once. We'd ridden the train together for about a year. An unobtrusive, ordinary man with a briefcase on his way to work. At the train station a bum asked him for money & made a smart remark when the man rebuffed him. The man went crazy & beat him up before we could even blink.

They're reporting he had control issues. To me that means no one ever put him in his place! Too bad the woman that claimed he raped her didn't press charges. He'd never have been employed at Yale if she had.

 

[Shlock Homes]

The look on his face in the car to me: resigned. Why didn't he take the bail assessment? Lawyer says it was upon advice of counsel... to perhaps make him look like he acknowledged he did this and did not deserve bail? Or is it even remotely possible that he does understand what he did and has a modicum of remorse?

((nurse ducks for having a different opinion but I feel this case is different on many levels..... and sorry if my opinion has offended anyone at all))

I think there are more people involved. I initially suggested it might have been a group think, either a hazing gone wrong or she was targeted for some kind of bizarre sacrifice. I don't think this was a crime of anger or passion, more like opportunity. But we'll have to wait until the trial to find out what his role was in it. He hid the body well, but why leave evidence to find so easily. Like I said, he could have just stuck the bloody clothes into his bag and walked out. End of story. I just hope some nut job doesn't decide to attack him or prevent him from going to trial to clear his name.

 

[MLE]

I'd like to know what you all think...

Aside from remorse, which I would put in a different category, would you say killing Annie had a traumatic effect on Clark, too?

That is to say, do you think the experience was psychologically shocking for him? In a negative way? In a pleasurable way? Both?

Just curious.

I'm not sure how he feels about the murder. It seems like if he was truly remorseful, he would talk with the cops about what he did and apologize to her parents.

I'm not sure if he is traumatized about it, but I do think what has probably shaken him up is his parents' reaction to what he's done. I like to watch "Locked Up Abroad" on National Geographic TV. It has these people who serve jail time overseas for crimes, usually drug smuggling. The prisons where these people serve time are usually unimaginable dens of Hell, especially in Latin America. Those prisons make some of the worst prisons here look like Club Med, and I think I would rather die than become Bubba's girlfriend. One would think serving time in these hellhole prisons would be traumatic, but about the only time I've seen these people cry when they tell their accounts of being locked up is when they talk about when they called their mother or father to tell them they had just gotten arrested and put in jail.

I know I would be really upset if my parents were crying and feeling like they screwed up raising me, and knowing how humiliated they must feel for their son to be in the world news as a murderer who dismembered someone. Parents usually take so much pride in their children and brag about them over their accomplishments, no matter how big or small. He obviously didn't have any compassion toward Annie Le, but I would bet a whole week of seeing his mother crying and his father crying, something he's probably never even seen before, has hit him like a ton of bricks.

 

[MLE]

http://www.samaylive.com/news/raymond-clark-arrested-with-murder-charges/657341.html

hey guys
i saw this article in a different thread
but this is the first time i heard anything about rape charges...
is this true do u think?
was annie raped?
i thought she was found fully clothed right?

That website keeps putting up stuff about this case that contradicts what the police has released. I think they're doing that to drive traffic to their website to generate ad revenue for all of those ads they have up.

 

[JL50ish]

I don't think that Clark ever really was going to get married....he got engaged about 18 months ago, and the "wedding" wasn't supposed to happen until the end of 2011 !!!! That just sounds like a guy who is trying to silence a nagging girlfriend.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

In RC's opinion, her mice were distressed in some way, he decided to call her on it, she came over to meet with him and he ended up killing her. that's what i think.

 

[eyes4crime]

In RC's opinion, her mice were distressed in some way, he decided to call her on it, she came over to meet with him and he ended up killing her. that's what i think.

I brought this over from my updated time-line - look at the movements of Annie and Clark ... looks to me like Clark stalked her as a starving animal would. He trapped her! Clark had to WORK hard to murder Annie...he didn't end up 'just' killing her. my opinion only

Sept. 8th (early am Tuesday)- Annie arrives and leaves personal belongings in office at Sterling Hall of Medicine. Walks 3 blocks to lab at 10 Amistad St.

Sept. 8th (10:00a) - Annie on video being let into building on Amistad.

- moments later passed through basement lab area
- Swiped her way into a separate room of lab (last card swipe for Annie)
- CLARK enters same room short time later
- Clark moves around laboratory entering rooms he normally would not be in.
- Clark swipes into another area -- the place where Le's body was eventually found after five days, stuffed into a 2-foot crawl space behind a wall.
- Clark swiped a total of 10 times including after hours
THE ABOVE INFORMATION FROM COMPUTERIZED CARD SWIPES

 

[PatientOne]

While I can appreciate the theory that he was controlling and yet lost control himself -- why murder Annie when it's been reported that he's behaved in an "officious" manner with other lab employees?

I understand the theories about her being a petite and/or spunky woman and therefore a more-likely victim -- and I can believe it could turn out to be as simple as that.

However, I just can't discount the timing of this crime and its proximity to her wedding. The fact that even though he's had similar complaints with other lab employees, nothing's ever resulted in any violence whatsoever, much less murder. He's evidently been an employee in good standing. This makes me wonder why murder at this time, and why Annie?

Peoples' cars are often statements about their personalities. It's occurred to me that almost anyone who chooses to drive a bright red Mustang, as he did, wants to be noticed. It also occurs to me that officious behavior, as others have stated, can be a means to attract attention. I can't help but consider the usual reason a single 24-year old man wants to attract attention!

Bottom line for me, unless forensic investigation of his Internet use reveals no interest specifically in Annie Le -- eg., visits to her wedding webpage, FB, academic/professional sites featuring HER, etc., I'm inclined to think there's a sexual aspect to this murder whether or not he sexually assaulted her on that fateful day.

And FWIW, I feel as others do that there's something not quite sincere/believable about his own wedding engagement. It's been suggested here already that he could have half-heartedly agreed to it to have something in common with Annie. On the other hand, absence of a ring, more formal wedding website, registry, etc., may just be indicative of lack of resources. After all, their wages probably weren't very high and it's been stated an "older man" had been living with RC and his gf. which could've been for financial reasons. Plus, there are apparently no family resources to pay for an attorney. This couple and their folks don't seem to be well-off.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

I brought this over from my updated time-line - look at the movements of Annie and Clark ... looks to me like Clark stalked her as a starving animal would. He trapped her! Clark had to WORK hard to murder Annie...he didn't end up 'just' killing her. my opinion only

Sept. 8th (early am Tuesday)- Annie arrives and leaves personal belongings in office at Sterling Hall of Medicine. Walks 3 blocks to lab at 10 Amistad St.

Sept. 8th (10:00a) - Annie on video being let into building on Amistad.

- moments later passed through basement lab area
- Swiped her way into a separate room of lab (last card swipe for Annie)
- CLARK enters same room short time later
- Clark moves around laboratory entering rooms he normally would not be in.
- Clark swipes into another area -- the place where Le's body was eventually found after five days, stuffed into a 2-foot crawl space behind a wall.
- Clark swiped a total of 10 times including after hours
THE ABOVE INFORMATION FROM COMPUTERIZED CARD SWIPES

when CLARK enters same room short time later. He ends up killing her.

then the rest of the moving around is him trying to do whatever killers do after they kill, like cover it up.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

eyes4 - you are talking premeditation. is that what you think?

 

[Tonto]

I have a sinking feeling that all of the people with complex and involved theories regarding sexual/stalker motives are going to be let down tremendously when this all pans out (I was one of these people initially). My bet is he simply has a type of elevated Bipolar Disorder coupled with Intermitten Explosive Disorder - or a type of PTSD - and something as simple as an univited sound can enrage him beyond comprehension. He probably doesn't even know what happened. He 'woke up' and she was dead. This in no way excuses his behavior or culpability, of course. There is no 'insanity' plea that recognizes any of these disorders.

Granted we don't know any facts right now, but I suspect whatever they are will leave us equally perplexed and incredibly frustrated.