British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

[Nova]

I read something a while ago and because i no longer have a link i will not post it here. But personally i think they know exactly what happened to Meredith or at least that there precious daughter was involved.

By the way something else where i think the parents are wrong. There saying if she had gone to Germany she couldnt have been extradited back to Italy. Well IMO she would have been had the Italians requested it.

I didn't understand that remark either. But it is obviously speculation about something that didn't happen and therefore can't be true or false. I really don't know anything about extradition between Germany and Italy. I assume the Germans had no trouble returning RG.

I am very curious as to why you think the parents are consciously lying, but I also appreciate your discretion with something that may be harshly critical but can't be sourced. I'm certainly willing to take your word that you have a reason for your opinion.

 

[Isabella]

Then why not say something more damning? Like "I was in the bathroom and the girls starting arguing, so I left"?

As for someone on TV revealing RG's legal strategy, we have literally hundreds of talking heads on American channels who will be happy to explain it to us.

They are all guessing.

Unless the info came from the defendant or his lawyer, why would we believe it?

Who knows? The news seemed pretty sure of there facts and no offence but the BBC are known as one of the most trustworthy news companies in the World..so yes i believe them.

This is just one article im sure there are many many more

http://www.italymag.co.uk/italy/umbria/perugia-murder-suspect-wants-separate-trial

 

[Isabella]

I didn't understand that remark either. But it is obviously speculation about something that didn't happen and therefore can't be true or false. I really don't know anything about extradition between Germany and Italy. I assume the Germans had no trouble returning RG.

I am very curious as to why you think the parents are consciously lying, but I also appreciate your discretion with something that may be harshly critical but can't be sourced. I'm certainly willing to take your word that you have a reason for your opinion.

I do believe the parents are lieing because some things they said on LKL arent true but its not that ...bah ill see if i can find links to what i read before and if i do ill post it.

 

[Nova]

Actually she wrote that in her prison diary iirc. It was nothing to do with police questioning so NO that wasnt why she put that at all.

And however you want to put it..i think MOST of us would know who had or hadnt slept in our bed at such a important time. Its not something you would forget easily.

My bad. There are numerous posts here that associate the "knife in the hand" story with the interrogation testimony and I inferred they were the same. I appreciate the correction.

But the statement remains obvious speculation. I don't see that it proves anything except that at some point, AK wondered if RS maybe was involved somehow.

As for who sleeps in our bed, how would we know such a thing unless we stay awake all night and watch? Sure, if I see my husband when I go to sleep and he's still there when I wake, I assume he was there all night. But if you challenged me as to whether he could have got up at some point, how could I swear he didn't? Maybe I'm an insensitive clod, but I don't wake up everytime he stirs, and, in fact, there have been occasions when he got up without my knowing it. I don't think he killed anyone, but maybe I should check back issues of the paper.

 

[Tizzle]

I read something a while ago and because i no longer have a link i will not post it here. But personally i think they know exactly what happened to Meredith or at least that there precious daughter was involved.

By the way something else where i think the parents are wrong. There saying if she had gone to Germany she couldnt have been extradited back to Italy. Well IMO she would have been had the Italians requested it.

The way I understand it, Edda wasn't claiming that they couldn't extradite her if she had gone to Germany but that they wouldn't. She was simply saying that none of the questioning/interrogation/coerced confession/people witnessing AK's alleged abnormal behavior would have happened and that Italy would have had no reason nor desire to extradite her. Not the same thing as what you are suggesting.

In the interview, Mr. Knox also states that he has never doubted Amanda's innocence, so I don't know know what you mean by the first part of your post.

From LKL interview...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/07/lkl.01.html
KING: Edda, in the immediate aftermath of the murder, your family in Germany suggested that Amanda come and stay with them. She didn't. Do you think that would've changed things?

MELLAS: Oh, you know, I kick myself every day that I didn't make her leave the country. And so does my cousin in Germany. Because had she left and -- none of this would've happened. She wouldn't be where she's at. But, you know, we can't go back and fix that. We just need to go forward.

KING: You don't think they would have extradited?

MELLAS: No, there was no -- there's no evidence against her. You know, none of that interrogation that they bullied her into that the supreme court found illegal, none of that would've happened. There's no physical evidence of her at the crime scene. They would have had no reason to, you know, extradite her or even attempt to arrest her. And they even admit to the fact that they really have no physical evidence, that it's just sort of some bizarre circumstantial stuff that they have.

BBM

 

[Nova]

To be honest i have no idea. Apparently her parents said on LKL she wouldnt have been extradited had she fled to Germany. I think these days most countries have a extradition warranty with each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition

By enacting laws or concluding treaties or agreements, countries determine the conditions under which they may entertain or deny extradition requests. Common bars to extradition include:

Failure to fulfill dual criminality - generally the act for which extradition is sought must constitute a crime punishable by some minimum penalty in both the requesting and the requested parties.

Political nature of the alleged crime - most countries refuse to extradite suspects of political crimes.

Possibility of certain forms of punishment - some countries refuse extradition on grounds that the person, if extradited, may receive capital punishment or face torture. A few go as far as to cover all punishments that they themselves would not administer.

Citizenship of the person in question - some countries refuse extradition of own citizens, holding trials for the persons themselves....

Countries with a rule of law typically make extradition subject to review by that country's courts. These courts may impose certain restrictions on extradition, or prevent it altogether, if for instance they deem the accusations to be based on dubious evidence, or evidence obtained from torture, or if they believe that the defendant will not be granted a fair trial on arrival, or will be subject to cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment if extradited

(Emphasis added.)

I don't know which, if any, of the above conditions apply to German/Italian extradition. AK's parents may believe they could have convince a German judge that AK's prosecution was politically motiviated. Or that the evidence against her was insufficient. Or that she couldn't get a fair trial because of pre-trial publicity.

In any case, they may well be kidding themselves.

(ETA Tizzle points out something even more important in the previous post: that the parents believe much of the supposed evidence wouldn't even exist if Amanda hadn't remained in Italy to be questioned and observed.)

 

[Nova]

Who knows? The news seemed pretty sure of there facts and no offence but the BBC are known as one of the most trustworthy news companies in the World..so yes i believe them.

This is just one article im sure there are many many more

http://www.italymag.co.uk/italy/umbria/perugia-murder-suspect-wants-separate-trial

That article quotes two unnamed sources from among RG's defense team. Unnamed sources aren't as good as named sources, of course, but I think that's the best we're going to do. Thank you.

As for the BBC, "no offence"? Pardon me, but the BBC is known as one of the most trustworthy news companies in my house. (We get BBC news on the BBC's American channel.) You don't have to convince me.

But media accounts can be reporting or commentary. I was just trying to figure out which this was; your link answers my question.

That being said, your link suggests the fast-track decision was trial strategy. (It isn't uncommon for co-defendants' lawyers to point the finger at each other.) I don't know what it tells us, if anything, about what happened on the night of the murder.

In essence, again per your link, RG got what we would call a "plea bargain" in the States. Yes, I've read that Italy doesn't allow plea bargains, but the effect here is remarkably the same: RG got to go to trial first and point the finger at his co-defendants. In the process, he had to plead guilty and confess something; but he got to mitigate his own involvement and cast suspicion on the others. In return, he got something less than the maximum possible sentence. (ETA that in the States, RG would almost certainly have had to indict AK and/or RS in much stronger terms in order to get an equivalent deal.)

I don't think it's unreasonable to view plea-bargain testimony with considerable skepticism.

 

[Brwnigirl]

DNA but it wasn't semen.

Do you have a link Jenny? I don't know where I got this from then as I was sure that RG's semen was found in the victim? What was the evidence she had been raped?

 

[Brwnigirl]

Im confused why you think people wouldnt have a factual knowledge of the case because they think shes guilty? People here DO have access to the internet, newspapers and tv news and in addition i think its been far less biased than in other countries so some could say..we have MORE of a factual knowledge.

JMO

Where oh where are the transcripts?
The internet, newspapers and tv news do not provide us an with an unbiased view of what really occurred. Those sources give us the "facts" from their point of view, so not necessarily the facts. :banghead:

I sure wouldn't want the media deciding and influencing my guilt or innocence if I was charged with something. Facts don't seem to matter as much as what will sell. It is truly frightening, and I think it could happen to anyone.

 

[jjenny]

Do you have a link Jenny? I don't know where I got this from then as I was sure that RG's semen was found in the victim? What was the evidence she had been raped?

It is my understanding that the prosecution didn't claim that she was actually raped. I think prosecution alleged some sort of sexual assault, which isn't the same as rape (in a technical sense).
"In Kercher's room, the DNA belonged mostly to Guede, whose traces were found on her purse, sweatshirt and bra. Guede said during his trial that he and Kercher had a romantic interlude that stopped short of sex earlier in the evening. A trace of his cells were also found on the vaginal swab of the victim, however no semen was present."
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/406495_knox22.html

 

[Isabella]

The way I understand it, Edda wasn't claiming that they couldn't extradite her if she had gone to Germany but that they wouldn't. She was simply saying that none of the questioning/interrogation/coerced confession/people witnessing AK's alleged abnormal behavior would have happened and that Italy would have had no reason nor desire to extradite her. Not the same thing as what you are suggesting.

In the interview, Mr. Knox also states that he has never doubted Amanda's innocence, so I don't know know what you mean by the first part of your post.

From LKL interview...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/07/lkl.01.html
KING: Edda, in the immediate aftermath of the murder, your family in Germany suggested that Amanda come and stay with them. She didn't. Do you think that would've changed things?

MELLAS: Oh, you know, I kick myself every day that I didn't make her leave the country. And so does my cousin in Germany. Because had she left and -- none of this would've happened. She wouldn't be where she's at. But, you know, we can't go back and fix that. We just need to go forward.

KING: You don't think they would have extradited?

MELLAS: No, there was no -- there's no evidence against her. You know, none of that interrogation that they bullied her into that the supreme court found illegal, none of that would've happened. There's no physical evidence of her at the crime scene. They would have had no reason to, you know, extradite her or even attempt to arrest her. And they even admit to the fact that they really have no physical evidence, that it's just sort of some bizarre circumstantial stuff that they have.

BBM

Germany would have extradited her. They wouldnt really have had no choice in the matter.

 

[Isabella]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition




(Emphasis added.)

I don't know which, if any, of the above conditions apply to German/Italian extradition. AK's parents may believe they could have convince a German judge that AK's prosecution was politically motiviated. Or that the evidence against her was insufficient. Or that she couldn't get a fair trial because of pre-trial publicity.

In any case, they may well be kidding themselves.

(ETA Tizzle points out something even more important in the previous post: that the parents believe much of the supposed evidence wouldn't even exist if Amanda hadn't remained in Italy to be questioned and observed.)

It wasnt a political crime though.

If they hadnt handed her over there are punishments and why would they go through that for a girl thats not even German?

 

[2goldfish]

thank you a million times for this. I wouldnt normally quote such a long post in its entirety but I want to be able to refer back to it later as it contains information I was not aware of - such as the position of the body and someone coming later - although silly me cause it was stated meredith took up to two hours to die since her carotid was not severed

this all goes leaps and bounds towards me undertsnding the conviction.

All of this comes from; http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/

BBM

[Note: The following paragraph numbers form no part of Micheli’s report. They are used in the context of this summary to identify the points of evidence contained in his report which will be examined and summarised in greater detail in follow-up posts]

1) Judge Micheli, after hearing both prosecution and defense arguments about Meredith’s and Amanda’s DNA on the knife and Raffaele’s DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp, accepted the prosecution argument that that both were valid evidence. He did note, however, that he fully expected that the same argument would be heard again at the full trial. In his report, Micheli dedicates several pages to explaining the opposing arguments and how he made his decision to allow the evidence. It is a detailed technical argument, and it is not proposed to examine it any closer in this post.

2) Judge Micheli explains that blood evidence proves that Meredith was wearing her bra when she was killed. Nor is it just the blood on her bra which demonstrates this. It’s also where the blood isn’t on her body. He says that Meredith was wearing her bra normally when she laid in the position in which she died, and she was still wearing it for quite some time after she was dead. Her bra strap marks and the position of her shoulder are imprinted in the pool of blood in that position. Meredith’s shoulder also shows the signs that she lay in that position for quite some time.

He asks the question: Who came back, cut off Meredith’s bra and moved her body some time later? It wasn’t Rudy Guede. He went home, cleaned himself up and went out on the town with his friends. Judge Micheli reasons in his report that it could only have been done by someone who knew about Meredith’s death and had an interest in arranging the scene in Meredith’s room. Seemingly who else but Amanda Knox?

She was apparently the only person in Perugia that night who could gain entry to the cottage. And the clasp which was cut with a knife when Meredith’s bra was removed was found on November 2nd when Meredith’s body was moved by the investigators. It was right under the pillow which was placed under Meredith when she was moved by someone from the position in which she died. On that clasp and its inch of fabric is the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Micheli reasons in his report that Raffaele and Amanda seemed to have returned to the cottage some time after Meredith was dead, cut off her bra, moved her body, and staged the scene in Meredith’s room.

3) Judge Micheli explains his reasoning on the method of Rudy’s entry into the cottage. He says that Rudy’s entry through the window is a very unlikely scenario and the evidence also indicates otherwise. He says the height and position of the window would expose any climber to the full glare of traffic headlights from cars on Via della Pergola. He asks, why wouldn’t a thief choose to break in through a ground floor window of the empty house? He says the broken glass and marks on the shutter both demonstrate the window was broken from the inside, some of the glass even falling on top of Filomena’s clothes which had been thrown around the room to simulate a robbery.

But his major reasoning for believing Rudy’s entry was through the front door are the bloody bare footprints which show up with luminol and fit Knox’s and Sollecito’s feet. These suggest that they entered Filomena’s room and created the scene in there after Meredith was killed. Allessandra Formica witnessed Rudy run away shortly after Meredith was stabbed. Someone went back later, left those footprints and staged the scene.

This, when considered in combination with the knowledge that person demonstrated of Rudy’s biological involvement with Meredith when they also staged the sex assault scene in Meredith’s own room indicates that that person was present when Meredith was assaulted and killed. He said it also demonstrated an attempt by someone who had an interest in altering the evidence in the house to leave the blame at Rudy’s door. Micheli reasoned, the only person who could have witnessed Rudy’s earlier sex assault on Meredith, could gain entry via the door and had an interest in altering the crime scene in the house appeared to be Amanda Knox. In his report, Micheli states that this logic leads him to believe that Amanda Knox was the one who let Rudy Guede into the cottage through the front door.

4) Judge Micheli examines the evidence of Antonio Curatolo. He says that although Curatolo mixes up his dates in his statement, he does have a fix on the night he saw Amanda and Raffaele in Piazza Grimana sometime around 11:00 to 11:30pm. Curatolo is certain it was the night before the Piazza filled up with policemen asking if anyone had seen Meredith. In his evidence, he says they came into the square from the direction of Via Pinturicchio and kept looking towards the cottage at Via della Pergola from a position in the square where they could see the entrance gate.

Judge Micheli reasons in his report that their arrival from Via Pinturicchio ties in with the evidence from Nara Capazzali that she heard someone run up the stairs in the direction of that street. He also reasons that they were likely watching the cottage to see if Meredith’s scream had resulted in the arrival of the police or other activity.

5) Judge Micheli examines the evidence of Hekuran Kokomani and finds him far from discredited. His says the testimony is garbled, his dates and times makes no sense but.... that Hekuran Kokomani was in the vicinity of the cottage on both 31st Oct. and 1st Nov isn’t in doubt. Furthermore, Micheli says that when he gave his statement, the details which he gave of the breakdown of the car, the tow truck and the people involved weren’t known by anyone else. He must have witnessed the breakdown in Via della Pergola. The same breakdown was also seen by Allessandra Formica shortly after Rudy Guede collided with her boyfriend.

This places Hekuran Kokomani outside the cottage right around the time of Meredith’s murder and he in turn places Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede together outside the cottage at the same time. His evidence also places all three outside the cottage at some time the previous night.

Judge Michelii found that all this evidence implicated Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as accomplices of Rudy Guede in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

 

[justbeachy]

Germany would have extradited her. They wouldnt really have had no choice in the matter.

I also wonder if her going to stay with family in Germany would have just made it look like she was running, so to speak. It's almost damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ya know?

 

[Isabella]

I also wonder if her going to stay with family in Germany would have just made it look like she was running, so to speak. It's almost damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ya know?

Well it made Guede look like he was running so why wouldnt it apply to her also?

In addition to that her flatmate had just been brutally murdered and its generally customary to stay around and be available for questioning...not go to another country.

 

[justbeachy]

I have not had a chance to review these documents in their entirety, but they are interesting, so I thought I would post them for others to review. The calculations and analysis by this guy (Kermit?) may be accurate or not (I don't know his background, education, etc. and as I said, I haven't read everything he has posted), but isn't this the stuff we WS'ers live for?? To dig into potential evidence and debate it endlessly?

The second link is the most recent information (it was created after forensic testimony was given on May 9), and it is probably the most accurate and up-to-date. I thought it would be helpful, though, to provide both links since the 2nd link refers to information in the 1st link.


The first is an analysis of the footprints found in the home. It includes luminol images and a diagram of the home. http://tinyurl.com/yaqzkg7


This is re-analysis of the footprints after forensic testimony that was given on May 9. http://tinyurl.com/yb4rl6s

 

[padngton]

By the way something else where i think the parents are wrong. There saying if she had gone to Germany she couldnt have been extradited back to Italy. Well IMO she would have been had the Italians requested it.

Isn't that almost like conceding defeat then? Let's take the kid and run...would parents really want their daughter wearing an "assasin's mask" for the rest of her life because they didn't think she could beat the charges in a court of law - even in Italy, who, in their opinion, sacrificed one of their own just to make sure they got the little American girl - oh boo hoo!! As a parent, I would think it would be important - almost detrimental - to facing the music(jury) and clearing one's good name - in order not to wear that "mask..."

You make a mistake - you own up to it and accept the consequences - come what may - apparently the jury (when they weren't too busy sleeping, as "Friends of Amanda" have suggested) was privy to more than what we as bystanders were/are and they felt there was something to warrant a guilty verdict - which I do too...and not just simply guilt by association - which DOES happen in American courts, btw...but gotta love, love, love how Miss Smiley now thinks she is the victim of character assasination; she thought nothing of smearing other's...

Rest In Peace, Meredith - the world will miss your beautiful soul...

 

[padngton]

Germany would have extradited her. They wouldnt really have had no choice in the matter.

I think any country would have - they've all got enough crooks of their own to tend to...praytell who, though, has the most criminals per capita than other countries? yep, yep - the good ol' US of A...

I'm part Shawnee Indian, btw, so this is not a personal attack on Americans; also happen to be "European American" via Germany, France, Ireland, Russia, and Scotland - this case just incenses me as had the verdict been not guilty, AK would prolly have lauded Italy as the greatest country in the world; however, since that was not the case - it has become a personal attack on her...that well-known saying, "When in Rome...;" don't take that too literally in a foreign country and do things you normally wouldn't do and then expect your Government to get involved and rescue you and then we wouldn't even be discussing this...a little common sense can go a long way...so, too, can the truth...

 

[padngton]

I have no doubt police can wear people down. I am also more than aware that people can lie to save there own skins after brutally murdering someone.

ITA regarding the police - they can wear you down - in an effort to get to the truth...so if one would just tell the truth from the onset, they prolly wouldn't find themselves in a courtroom on down the road; however, the truth has yet to materialize 100% - yet...

If you had nothing but the truth, you'd stick w/ it no matter how hard or how long one tried to berate you/interrogate/&c. - that would be your typical response over and over - the truth...but some people can lie just as easily as breathing oxygen...and then cry character assasination... ;-)

 

[justbeachy]

If you had nothing but the truth, you'd stick w/ it no matter how hard or how long one tried to berate you/interrogate/&c. - that would be your typical response over and over - the truth...but some people can lie just as easily as breathing oxygen...and then cry character assasination... ;-)

I disagree with this. False confessions have been documented more than once.

"In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty."

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php