Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #1

[Motherof5]

Still looking for answers.Prayers for the Lyon family!!

 

[Ween]

Are both John and Mary Lyon still alive? Whitepages.com has them listed at the Plyers Mill Road home.Also, I know the older brother is a MC cop. Does anyone know what became of the younger brother Joe?

 

[Dragonfire7783]

I've not posted in awhile sense I've been busy,however local news started me thinking again.On Friday there was a report of two missing teen girls and they looked some what similar to the Lyon Sisters.They also went to Wheaton Plaza allot.
www.nbcwashington.com/.../Two-Bethesda-Girls-Missing-Since-Friday-95178519.html.
Then yesterday a report one of the girls called home
www.wtopnews.com/?nid=25&sid=1970035

Any way it got me thinking about the case again.The teen/class mate who reported several days later he saw the girls walking home.Allot of people question this but maybe we shouldn't.After all he went to school with one of the sisters so would know what they look like.
I also have to ask why wait a few days then come forward at his parents pressure?Was the teen hiding something?Did he and some friends take the girls somewhere and something went terrible wrong?As a result they covering for each?
Think I've said this in an earlier post.If so Sorry.

Well some other thoughts.
I still say it was a person/persons in the area that the girls knew.That they knew but that doesn't mean knew well.
Also it is the profile of most serial killers/rapist that they have a set type of victim.For example blonds blue eyes or red head green eyes.Serial killer/rapist also generally have a pattern be cause of their need to kill and rape.Be cause there was no similar looking girls in the area is odd.Unless the person moved in which case it would be a good idea to look at unsolved and solved cases for similar looking victims.
Which leads to my first idea.That this is a case like the German who kept his daughter.That the sisters were abducted by one or two people and kept somewhere as sex slaves.Again remember this was the Cold War and people did build bomb shelters in the DC area.It would explain why never found and why no other similar victims these past 35 years.

Now the latest missing girls they are similar looking to the Lyon Sisters and I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought.I'm sure the police did as well.The whole phone call to Mom by one was it real they are both well?Or was it forced by captors?After all just the one called and not the other.

 

[Richard]

I've not posted in awhile sense I've been busy,however local news started me thinking again.On Friday there was a report of two missing teen girls and they looked some what similar to the Lyon Sisters.They also went to Wheaton Plaza allot....

Any way it got me thinking about the case again.The teen/class mate who reported several days later he saw the girls walking home.Allot of people question this but maybe we shouldn't.After all he went to school with one of the sisters so would know what they look like....

Well some other thoughts.
I still say it was a person/persons in the area that the girls knew.That they knew but that doesn't mean knew well.
Also it is the profile of most serial killers/rapist that they have a set type of victim.For example blonds blue eyes or red head green eyes.Serial killer/rapist also generally have a pattern be cause of their need to kill and rape.Be cause there was no similar looking girls in the area is odd.Unless the person moved in which case it would be a good idea to look at unsolved and solved cases for similar looking victims.
Which leads to my first idea.That this is a case like the German who kept his daughter.That the sisters were abducted by one or two people and kept somewhere as sex slaves.Again remember this was the Cold War and people did build bomb shelters in the DC area.It would explain why never found and why no other similar victims these past 35 years.....

You bring up a number of interesting thoughts. I don't know much about the most recent case of missing girls, but it certainly brings the Lyon case to mind again for most people in the area.

There were actually several people who claimed to have seen the Lyon sisters at Wheaton Plaza and a few who claim to have seen them in their neighborhood walking home that afternoon. Some knew them from the neighborhood or from school, while others remembered seeing girls who fit their broadcast description, but did not know them personally.

There are probably as many different serial killers or pedophiles as there are individuals of that ilk. The FBI and other analysts tend to make generalized statements in trying to categorize them, and in many ways those categorizations have helped law enforcement solve crimes and develop suspects. Those generalizations, however, do not always apply in every case. Some serial killers do have preferences when it comes to choosing victims, but might not be as particular if the right circumstances came their way.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Richard
Thanks for commenting and I know there are exceptions to every rule

While Mike DeBardeleben seems to fit the profile according to this web sight
http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Psyc 405/serial killers/Debardeleben, Mike _fall 2007_.pdf
The age of his victims is 20 to 40.
While there are similar things in Ft.Worth Trio and his victims looks in some cases.However the Lyon Sisters are out of the age range.Also as has been said he kept trophies so logic says he would have kept some from the Lyon sisters and it would be criminal for the Secret Service to keep it secret.

So again while the Priest theory is good the fake police officer is good even Mike DeBardeleben as a suspect sounds good.With him the age of victims doesn't fit and while the priest/police could get them in a car I still have my doubts just be cause eventually they would need subduing



As to how the girls were taken if by some one unknown.While child abductions were unknown they did happen.I just don't think it was a big deal with the press unless it was really hot.For example two sisters taken at once.Why do I say this?I can't speak for everyone but I was born in 1958 and all my child hood life my parents drilled into me two things.Don't talk to strangers and don't get into cars with people you don't know.As has been said things like child abductions was unheard of so my parents would have had no reason to raise me that way.However they did raise me that way so clearly they did happen but were not widely reported.
As has been said yes a fake policemen or Priest could get the girls into a car.
However subduing each girl.Driving off after awhile they would be come suspicious no matter how far.So a close safe place would be best.Having a weapon and have one girl tie up gag the other then do the lone one himself.Sure but would take too long and really look odd in a busy mall parking lot.He would still need to eventually subdue them as well

To do it quickly quietly the best way is a van two people or as I have said some one living on the streets they walked through.
It was Easter I can see some one in which the girls knew even a little calling out."Hay girls my wife and I just finished making some Easter baskets for the local kids come on up and get yours."


Point for example last month over in VA. there was a case where a man tried to abduct two girls walking home and he did grab one while the older sister screamed and fought back.As a result he drove off.





As a result I am still going with it was some one the girls knew in passing or well and living in the area.

I'm also pretty sure there are facts the police are leaving out that only the perp would know.Evidence as well.Police do it all the time.

I know it's only TV but on Stargate Universe the Air Force couldn't figure out a formula so put it in an online game to see if others could.I think sense it's been 35 years it would be a good idea for the police to let all they know out.There are plenty of intelligent people here on this sight who seeing every fact with fresh eyes,or people in the DC area who know something but discount it be cause the known facts published don't fit.Mean while an unkown fact could click it into place.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Never mind above post it has been pointed out to me how very wrong it all is

 

[Richard]

Never mind above post it has been pointed out to me how very wrong it all is

If your are referring to your previous post of 3 June, I thought that your comments were well stated and appropriate. How could they be "wrong" since you are stating your impressions and thoughts on a very difficult and mysterious case?

Nobody really knows what happened to the Lyon girls. Except for some basic facts, the case remains open and unsolved to this day.

I agree with you in that perhaps the police could release more information which could lead to a resolution of the case.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Richard
Thank you again.
It was pointed out to me politely in a message how I was wrong about Mike DeBardeleben and A&E did mention he raped girls around the age of the Lyon girls.Sadly the link I posted didn't include that and said the ages were 20-40.Clearly he is the lead suspect of the police as I was told.

Granted there is no direct evidence but people have been convicted on far less.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Richard
Again thank you.This DeBardeleben may very well be the person and as has been stated the other abductions that year in PA.NJ. I believe all connected as has been suggested.It would explain why there were no others in the DC area of similar descriptions.The theory serial rapist/killers have a type.While exceptions happen they do.
Richard I do agree with your point of view not to have a set suspect based on what we know.Though we all do have our own theory.

As for TRM there was another I believe I read in Southern PG at the time and he was questioned and cleared.Two TRM in the same area both recording children/young teens for the same reason?Wow!
Some thoughts and I don't mean to dismiss TRM.It could be possible they were doing what the said they were.Remember phone answering machines didn't have the chips like they do today and selling recording could have been a easy way to make extra cash.After all there was a recession and gas crisis going on.
Also lets all remember police press and as a result the public get fixated on clues while being totally wrong.A perfect example the DC Sniper case a witness said he spotted
a white van speeding away.So as a result the police press news media got all of us in the area looking out for white vans.When in fact it was a dark blue Chevy caprice the sniper used.TRM might just be a case of the same thing.Like a van speeding away a man talking to kids recording them looks suspicious. Mean while someone looking average and clearly some one the girls knew or knew of would not give people a second glance just as a dark blue car leaving a scene doing normal speed limit would not cause people to take a second look let alone remember seeing.
Along this line of thought.People would remember it if someone approached the girls at the mall and it's parking lot dressed as a priest and more so a police officer.(The report of stolen uniforms)Especially when being questioned by the police.


Before I say any more I've a question.Is James Mann's seeing them now dismissed?Secondly did any one in the area raise rabbits or maybe even chickens?
Maybe not in their back yard as far as chickens go any way.
Third did any one shortly after the abduction up to a year move away from the neighbor hood?Specifically either married couple no children,or single male/female/dicorced/widowed?

 

[nola]

Before I say any more I've a question.Is James Mann's seeing them now dismissed?Secondly did any one in the area raise rabbits or maybe even chickens?
Maybe not in their back yard as far as chickens go any way.
Third did any one shortly after the abduction up to a year move away from the neighbor hood?Specifically either married couple no children,or single male/female/dicorced/widowed?

Would be the oldest trick in the book...and long before this sort of ruse was publicized.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

nola
In part I think you see where I'm going and it is half right.After all it was Easter.

 

[nola]

After all these were smart young girls with parents who would have warned them about typical "bad" people. Even the smartest child can set aside reasonable alerts when an animal is involved. The best con on a child has always been, "I've lost my puppy, can you help me find him?"
Uncovering what lead these sisters to interact with the abductor, is the first step.

 

[Fukiyama]

The old man, James Mann, who would have been middle aged at the time of the abductions, has only been cited as being a witness in one source from the press that came out decades afterward. Unless I'm mistaken, there are not contemporary articles in the press naming him as a witness. Take what he has to say and give it as much credibility as any of the other witnesses who saw the girls going to or from the mall that day.

As for the second alleged TRM who was questioned and sent on his way, I don't think any conclusions can be made regarding his claimed activities. I for one lean more towards the conclusion that he was an attention seeker and not actually going around with a tape recorder like he claimed.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Some Interesting Characteristics of Serial Killers and Child Abductions

Fourteen Characteristics of a Serial Killer


1. Over 90 percent of serial killers are male.
2. They tend to be intelligent, with IQ's in the "bright normal" range.
3. They do poorly in school, have trouble holding down jobs, and often work as unskilled laborers.
4. They tend to come from markedly unstable families.
5. As children, they are abandoned by their fathers and raised by domineering mothers.
6. Their families often have criminal, psychiatric and alcoholic histories.
7. They hate their fathers and mothers.
8. They are commonly abused as children — psychologically, physically and sexually. Often the abuse is by a family member.
9. Many serial killers spend time in institutions as children and have records of early psychiatric problems.
10. They have high rates of suicide attempts.
11. From an early age, many are intensely interested in voyeurism, fetishism, and sado-masochistic *advertiser censored*.
12. More than 60 percent of serial killers wet their beds beyond the age of 12.
13. Many serial killers are fascinated with fire starting.
14. They are involved with sadistic activity or tormenting small creatures.
Source: Internal Association of Forensic Science, an article written by FBI Special Agent Robert K. Ressler
"The Serial Killer," Harold Schechter



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

Categories

The FBI's Crime Classification Manual places serial killers into three categories: "organized", "disorganized" and "mixed"—offenders who exhibit organized and disorganized characteristics.[28] Some killers descend from being organized into disorganized behavior as their killings continue.
[edit] Organized/nonsocial offenders

Organized nonsocial offenders usually have above average intelligence, with a mean IQ of 123.[29] They often plan their crimes quite methodically, usually abducting victims, killing them in one place and disposing of them in another. They will often lure the victims with ploys appealing to their sense of sympathy. For example, Ted Bundy would put his arm in a fake plaster cast and ask women to help him carry something to his car, where he would beat them unconscious with a crowbar, and carry them away. Others specifically target prostitutes, who are likely to go voluntarily with a stranger. They maintain a high degree of control over the crime scene, and usually have a solid knowledge of forensic science that enables them to cover their tracks, such as burying the body or weighing it down and sinking it in a river. They follow their crimes in the media carefully and often take pride in their actions, as if it were all a grand project. The organized killer is usually socially adequate, has friends and lovers, and sometimes even a spouse and children. They are the type who, when/if captured, are most likely to be described by acquaintances as kind and unlikely to hurt anyone. Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy are examples of organized serial killers.[30]


Disorganized/asocial offenders

Disorganized asocial offenders are often of low intelligence, have a below average IQ (<90), and commit their crimes impulsively. Whereas the organized killer will specifically set out to hunt a victim, the disorganized will murder someone when the opportunity arises, rarely bothering to dispose of the body but instead just leaving it at the same place where they found the victim. They usually carry out blitz-style attacks, leaping out and attacking their victims without warning, and will typically perform whatever rituals they feel compelled to carry out (e.g., necrophilia, mutilation, cannibalism, etc.) once the victim is dead. They rarely bother to cover their tracks but may still evade capture for extended periods of time due to the anonymous nature of the crime. They are often introverted, socially inadequate with few friends, and they may have a history of mental problems. Richard Chase is an example of a disorganized serial killer.


http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/child_abduction/3.html

Characteristics of Child Abductions
The OJJDP study concluded that the most typical victim in a child abduction murder was an eleven-year-old white female from a middle class neighborhood. This mirrors the NISMART finding that 69% of the victims were female and 80% were less than 14 years old. The suspect in the case had been arrested for prior offenses against children 53% of the time and the most common crime was sexual in nature. The abductor was usually a white male, single and about 27 years old. They were either unemployed or worked in unskilled jobs, lived alone or with parents. NISMART found that the suspect was less than 29 years old in 67% of the cases.
At the time of the abduction, the offender had a valid reason for being at the scene of the crime. These reasons included a residence near the site, some type of social activity or work related duties. Over 57% of these types of abductions were considered crimes of opportunity. The method of abduction in 65% of the incidents was a sighting, a sudden assault and a quick abduction. In 53% of the incidents, the first contact between victim and suspect took place near the childs home. In 33% of the cases, the contact took place less than 200 feet from the home. NISMART concluded that only 5% of stranger abductions took place in the victims home or yard.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Fukiyama

Here is partly why I asked about James Mann


The Washington Examiner in their April 7 2010 article about the 35th anniversary of the girls going missing gives this time line."Witnesses later told investigators that they saw Sheila and Katherine talking to a middle-aged man in a brown suit outside of the Orange Bowl at around 1 p.m. The man apparently held a briefcase, as well as a microphone attached to a tape recorder. The two girls were seen speaking into the microphone.

At around 2 p.m., the girls' brother spotted the two of them eating pizza together inside the restaurant. Later that day, a friend saw the girls walking down the road toward their house at some point between 2:30 and 3 p.m. That was the last confirmed sighting of the young sisters."
Also reported on another web sight is this a James Mann.
"Longtime Kensington Heights resident James Mann may have been one of the last to see the two girls. He recalls waving to them as they passed his house on the corner of Drumm Avenue and Devin Place that afternoon. He said they continued down Drumm toward McComas."
Reported at http://www.kensingtonheightsweb.com/association/kensingtonheights/lyonsisters.htm



nola,
True and as I said I can't speak for everyone but the times couldn't have been that safe as people remembered.As I mentioned in an earlier post.I was born in 1958 and my whole childhood from early memory my parents especially my Mother drilling into my head "You don't talk to strangers and don't get into cars with strangers"Now if life was so innocent like everyone remembers there would have been no need to tell drill that into me as a child.Child abductions happened it just wasn't a blip on the news radar until something like the Lyon Sisters happened.It wasn't like it is today with Amber Alerts.Which weren't around yet


Now I don't really believe in astrology and the planets deciding our fate and who we are.I've always believed that came from how we were raised,experiences and DNA.However when I did a google search last week before posting again this web sight came up and had a page devoted to the Lyon Sisters.The astrology aside the theory of what happened is a frightening possibility.
http://forensicastrology.blogspot.com/2009/11/lyon-sisters.html

I'll quote it here removing the astrology stuff


"Timeline

Police felt comfortable enough with accuracy of this timeline to release it to the public.

11:00 AM to noon: The girls leave home.

1:00 PM: A neighborhood child tells investigators that he saw both of the girls together outside the Orange Bowl Restaurant. He also told the investigators that the sisters were speaking to an unidentified man.

2:00 PM: The girls' older brother saw them inside the Orange Bowl Restaurant eating pizza together.

2:30 to 3:00 PM: A friend sees the girls walking westward down a street near the Mall which would have been one of the most direct routes from the Mall to their home. This is the final sighting of the sisters that is absolutely confirmed by the police.

4:00 PM: This curfew set by their mother passes, the girls are expected home and do not arrive.

7:00 PM: Police are called. The investigation and an active search by professionals begins."

"This is another great case sent to me by a dutiful and loyal seeker of justice for children, Madena. This is interesting to me because not only have the bodies not been found, there have been no further sightings of the girls and no suspects have been named, even after hundreds of tips and the chasing of many leads, most of which have turned out to be false. They did entertain the possibility that Fred Howard Coffey Jr., a pedophile guilty of killing another child, was to blame. They also considered Raymond Rudolph Mileski Sr., a local bad *advertiser censored* that had killed his entire family. No matter, no charges were ever brought because no evidence has ever been found. This case is especially interesting because it drew enormous media attention, both locally and nationally, they had 122 National Guardsmen participate in the searches, which were extensive and lengthy and, to boot, their father was famous locally as a radio personality with quite a following. I mean, everything about this case screamed that it should have been solved, and yet it has not. A lot can happen to precious children in a scant 4 blocks, don't we know? And with no one watching, either.

These girls were looking for someone on purpose, someone who lived in a home nearby. Perhaps even a home on the route they took to their own home. Someone who had invited them, perhaps? Could this be the man with the briefcase they had been seen with earlier?

This man had rows with authorities and had been in trouble in the past. In fact, the police knew who he was. He had a home in that neighborhood or he had family there and used their home;This person had a proclivity for children, maybe started with his own siblings, and favored girls.


At 2:30 pm, at least, these girls were outside. They were walking along a wooded path or walking through an open field. They may even have wandered into the woods, if woods exist there. It is my first guess that this person gave the girls something. A gift, perhaps, or a promise, even. He or she gave the girls something and won their trust. They could not resist the promise or invitation, assuming they could stop in and be home in plenty of time, which would have been possible if this person lived nearby.This person they are about to meet has now gone outside of his or her home and is in the neighborhood, possibly looking for the girls?

These girls were not taken to the home. This person lived in the neighborhood and so had access to the same path the girls were walking. This person arrived by surprise, even after an invitation had been extended, and either convinced the girls or forced them into the woods. They were killed in a small wooded area with small animals like turtles, squirrels and raccoons. Were there cornfields or haystacks in that area? How about a chicken ranch or a dairy farm? If not, these do not fit, then consider also greyhound racing, beekeeping, fox farming or hunting and mineral mines. Farms that grow carrots or parsley also come to mind.. and this person probably also owned a small dog. A small dog that barked a lot.

This event occurred close to the home. This was right in the neighborhood and involved a person who also lived nearby. This person was known to the police and had been in trouble before. He or she had extended an invitation to the girls but made sure to meet with them on the way and take them by surprise. The girls were taken to an area in the woods or off the road near a chicken ranch"



Thus why I asked if someone in the area raised rabbits or chickens.It was Easter time and children love holding baby rabbits and little chicks.

Also based on the characteristics above

Also and I must be careful here.Serial Killers do love to taunt police and yes TRM could have been doing this as well as M.DeBardeleben when he faked being a policemen.However another way to taunt and throw off police would be to come forward as a witness saying you saw the girls at such a such time.Such an act would taunt,and give you some publicity/fame for a bit.
Remember on average serial killers look normal seem friendly people one would never suspect.

Sense they on average need to kill every so often it's why I ask did any one move 6 months to a year later.Especially single.
Anyone remember a handy man who suddenly left the area afterward?

Some farmhand who was a local handy man helping some one who raised chickens or rabbits maybe?

 

[Fukiyama]

Fukiyama

Here is partly why I asked about James Mann [...]

Also reported on another web sight is this a James Mann.
"Longtime Kensington Heights resident James Mann may have been one of the last to see the two girls. He recalls waving to them as they passed his house on the corner of Drumm Avenue and Devin Place that afternoon. He said they continued down Drumm toward McComas."
Reported at http://www.kensingtonheightsweb.com/association/kensingtonheights/lyonsisters.htm

Richard would know better, but mention of Mann's sighting is not made in any of the contemporary news articles from the summer of 1975. As the article you link to implies, it was written years later and Mann was recollecting. Again, take his account for what it's worth.

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Fukiyama
Thank you I just wanted clearification

 

[Dragonfire7783]

Ok
Based on what I posted and the characteristics
I am sticking with this theory
Male age 20 to 30 a local handy man who lived with parents in a local very small farm.(Not unheard of sense the area was not as crowded as today)
He knew the girls and the girls knew of him from doing work in the neighborhood
Went to the mall told the girls about baby rabbits at his parents small farm 15 to 20min away.The girls knew the person in passing from local handy man work knew they could see the babies and be driven home in plenty of time so went with him.
Few months later the family sold the land to a developer and it became a housing division or Condo place.

 

[nola]

If the "friend's" time recall is correct and he (I think it was a male friend of their brother's, right) did see the girls between 2:30 and 3 pm that day already back in the neighborhood. They're decision to leave the mall early (curfew not until 4pm) would suggest that they were giving themselves extra time to make it home. What pre-teen girl would leave the mall to beat curfew by an hour'? Unless, they had planned a detour.
I like your thought process on this Dragonfire.

The bait would have been dangled in front of the girls at the mall that afternoon. Surely, mall personnel would have records of any person giving away baby chicks or bunnies that day. Or, maybe a photographer was using bunnies or chicks as props that day and promised the girls they could have their pick once his sessions were done...maybe they could come back at the end of the day...you know, I live really close...I could drop the bunny off... how close do you live?...oh, that right by my friend's house...I could just meet you there at say 3...

 

[Dragonfire7783]

nola
I know it is not funny but *LOL* about teen girls.I was a high school teacher and teen adviser for a local Unitarian Church and saw it plenty of times adjusting their time to fit their goals. I must say it is so very true and even I did it as a teen.I would stay at the last min at the local pool unless I wanted to stop somewhere on the way home.