IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #3

[VeryVeritas]

Reading everything today, I'm leaning more toward the drug thing as well. I'm not sure if it was all 3 of them, but I think #1 suspect is JR. I'm also thinking JR is the one that left later in the day she went missing. I think she OD'd and he probably left with her in a suitcase or something. I don't think any of them are dumb enough to leave at that time of the night and dump her somewhere. I think they maybe loaded her up that night, put her in a duffel bag/suitcase and put her in the trunk, and JR left the next day.

The trouble I see with that is people would soon be looking for her and it would soon lead to JR. If it was just in JR's hands and he acted alone, he probably would have acted quickly, rather than wait for people to be knocking on the door as eventually happened. He would have no way of knowing how much time he would have, so why risk it by waiting. Another risk is that a body could be tracked by smell, leaving it in a vehicle for a period of time would also increase the risk of getting caught later. Exceptions of course - someone totally unrelated's car is used who then immediately removes it from the area.

This also causes me to visualize another bigger picture around this.
There were these "other" people who were present at CR/MB's apt when LS wanted to go "party" At first I was just thinking of these people as other neighbors, students, etc... perhaps the people who skipped town and just want to have nothing to do with it. Or, perhaps it was more like this...
I've now seen it stated on an Examiner.com page by a Ms. Dyar at the IU school of law that "these guys are coke dealers" Since she is using her facebook to ID herself it certainly looks credible. Now, who the "guys" isn't clear. CR/MB definitely seem to be separating themselves from JR.
If CR/MB had coke and assuming that's what LS wanted, she would have no need to leave for JR's. So, I'm getting the feeling that CR would more likely be a buyer than a seller. But looking at it from the scenario that JR was an active coke dealer, he would have his source. Sources do look over dealers shoulders - it's the nature of the business. They also sometimes have their own undercover people, who check on things or watch things.
These people higher up the chain, have a lot more to lose than a dealer who may have personally known and sold to someone. Consequently they might be more interested in the cleanup than anyone. If they weren't present, JR would have to contact them to let them know and they may have decided to intervene. If one or more were present, it would make a lot more sense that they leave as they normally would and take the body with them. I've heard of scenarios where these watchers or suppliers will pose as just friends or even buyers themselves to hide their identity or role. They of course work for people who are increasingly powerful and so on... This is another reason why vehicle ID in the gravel lots of CR/MB/JR's building or in the vicinity would be important. If one of these missing POI's had a car there that night, and left town with it.... now what? One of them could have driven off hundreds of miles and placed the body anywhere. This makes me cringe... in any case, i can't see JR or others taking a risk by waiting until the next day.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Yea, it's quite possible she was interested in CR for companionship. Seems that's what friends of JW believed, or why else would they allegedly beat CR up?

I've asked that many times with no answer. Strange that CR has made no statement about it other than memory loss. What did JW's friends say about it? Nothing in the public... seems odd... also odd that their names are not public. Why not? So, the only thing I could come up with is that it was something neither wanted to be public - for example that CR might be gay. The fact that he was banned from smallwood, came out almost in defense of those who punched him. So, was he punched because he was "banned"? or was he punched because someone felt like bullying him(like for being gay or a non-conformist in some way) and knew they could get away with it because they knew he was banned and one of them was connected to the building management or security and they could easily use that as an excuse. Another possibility... CR (gay or not) may have been perceived as a "bad influence" in general and the fact that LS was around and JW was their friend may have had nothing to do with it.
I can think of several reasons of how this could have happened but not involve Lauren

 

[VeryVeritas]

How many of the POI's have left Indiana shortly after Lauren's disappearance?

I just wanted to throw a theory waaay out of left field. Could it be possible that one of them had her (body?) in their car and planned on taking her back to their home state (or somewhere along the way), just so she would be far away from Indiana and the search crews?

uh-oh, I am catching up on posts and just posted something similar.
Since you saw that too it has me thinking more along those lines.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I believe it was stated that some cars were searched last week...when they were all seemingly still around, will see if there is a link...

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...earched-lawyer-says?odyssey=mod|lateststories

Well, Rossman's car was searched anyway...

"some cars"... seems that even if it was all cars of the POI's the body could have been nearby and then later picked up on the way out of town.

I'm recalling that checkpoints were set up to ask questions, but I didn't hear about any searches being conducted. Since a lot of people left school to go home for summer break there were a lot of people leaving in a short time interval. That could have been used to their advantage.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I see what you're saying Paul...especially about bringing her back to their home town.

However, I would be curious to know how long it took any of them to drive home. I imagine they were pretty familiar with the expressways, but I live in Indiana, and know it's a 10 hour-ish drive to NY (depending on where at). I imagine they have probably stopped at some of the same locations on various trips back home.

With the whereabouts of JR unknown at this point makes him look suspicious...to us outsiders anyway. Hopefully LE have narrowed down his location.

I'm not sure why you are assuming NY? It's my understanding that JR is from Michigan. We don't know the names of the others who were in the company of MB and LS as she went to JR's to party (with or without them?)
We also don't know who the POI's are... so we certainly can't know all of the states that they may have returned to. However, just to play devil's advocate here... If the hometown is NEW JERSEY for example, what are the odds it would ever turn up?

As much money is being spent on the search, and I certainly think it needs to be done, if it were transported and dumped states away and wound up in a %%%% (dont want to give anyone ideas) one has to consider what would happen to the case.

 

[VeryVeritas]

He has a name and it is JR.

I am sickened by the posts I am reading here. My daughter is a friend of his. There is NO evidence that he has done anything wrong and if there was the police would have detained him or made him return.

There is no evidence of his being a drug user let alone drug dealer.

Did you ever think that IF these people had NOTHING to do with her disappearance that for the rest of their lives they will have to deal with the rumors here and everywhere?

And if they had something to do with it then the police will find out and charge them. Then you can make all the comments you want about the TRUTH.

<modsnip>

I think that the moderators here are very keen not allow anyone to be slandered. Theories and possibilities are discussed, and certainly people's behaviors and realities (sometimes unpleasant) are discussed and analyzed. You are the first person to come forward to say anything positive about JR. I'm curious if there is a consensus out there? If there are people that know that JR was involved drugs they should call LE. Yet, I certainly would also like to know if that is the case or not. I've met all sorts of people who have another life you would never suspect and that is how they are successful at it.

Also, curious why you think JR isn't talking? Someone posted that JR had 2 violations for using fake ID, is that a lie? If it's true what do you think of that? It doesn't sound like you know him personally, so I'm curious how you could be so sure of his character?

Thanks for joining in...

 

[liljim]

if i hear that a college student has been caught using a fake ID it doesnt make me form any judgement about their character. when i was in college there was a regular bar in town that we went to on thursday nights (gotta get that weekend started early right? )

at least 1/4 of the people in the bar were using fake ID's (i went to a small to medium sized school, by the end of my first year i probably knew 90% of the people there) i would bet it was over 1/3...

young people using fake ID's to get into bars/clubs is rampant, and while i dont endorse it i also dont think it is a good indicator of any further criminality or lack of character etc

 

[VeryVeritas]

BTW I am not law enforcement but I have a very hard time believing that a material witness cannot be forced to speak to the police. They sent a detective to DC so they could send a detective to Jay IF they have not interviewed him as of yet (which we do not know).

.

Why was a detective sent to DC? Which POI is there?

 

[VeryVeritas]

Anything is possible. Or if drugs were involved, maybe Lauren (and this is theoretically speaking) went to his apt. cause she knew he would have them.

MOO

that Lauren asked him if he wanted to party and he demurred, so she left for JR's apt.

There seem to be 2 ways to look at this. Either she was asking his consent to "party" right there, or she was inviting him to JR's. (NOTE: This is consistent with the social group behaviors of social cocaine use and I've seen now at least 3 people post about that in the past 24 hrs. The coke people go off and do it together privately and it's sort of a "by invitation" thing) Since he demurred, that could be construed that he didn't consent to them doing it there(so a polite - no thank you basically), or that he didn't want to go along to JR's. Since the intent was to "party" and since she went to JR's one could deduce that either she or JR had the drugs. However, others were present (based on previous reports), so it's conceivable one of them had the "party" material. It's not been ruled out that others went to JR's and we still don't know who these people were.

So yes from this one statement passed on by MB's lawyer one can deduce that that MB is saying LS and JR were at the very least drug users.

 

[VeryVeritas]

If this was the case and someone tried to cover up an accidental drug overdose then they should get second degree murder.

I think these kids are smart enough to know that and would bring their friend to the emergency room which is only a few blocks past small wood rather than to risk that.


I know first hand from all three of my kids that there are nights when things get out of control and kids turn to LE, emergency medical or adults to help out. They put the other persons lives first.

At least I hope this is the case.

An emergency room a few blocks past smallwood too? Would that be to the south? I am increasingly amazed at how high profile this N. College stretch of just a couple blocks are. This is what I understand about it, so perhaps you can help me out here:

1) JR, the last to claim to seeing Lauren alive, and apparently the last to be with her, said he saw her walk to 11th and N. College. On previous threads here btown posted some great maps of the area. btown drew color codings to separate things and pinged JR's apt. There is a blue line headed south down N. College which I think indicates reports where it was said that JR saw her walking not just to the corner of 11th and N. College but down N. College. I remember reading those reports, not sure if it was an inaccuracy in reporting, or which statement he actually made. I think it does matter a little because if he did watch her walk nearly the first full block, that only leaves about 1.5 blocks to smallwood's door.
2) There are cameras on several of the buildings in the area pointing in different directions and some having covers that make it impossible to know where they are pointing. Of course we all know there are cameras at the begining and end of the Alley that goes between Smallwood and the gravel parking areas past Woodburn and behind CR/MB/JR's building to the south.
3) We know Amin and a friend were back over there in the Alley and found LS's small purse and keys around 3am.
4) We know that another young lady reports being in that Alley around 2:30am just prior to when CR/LS came through.
5) It seems that people felt safe walking down the Alley. Yet, LS supposedly walked home south on N. College. A walk that would not take but 3 to 5 minutes even in barefeet and still tipsy. Why would she not take the Alley back, I asked... I was told this would be safer... why I asked? Because it was so well lit up... and there is a Waffle house normally with police in it during these early morning hours directly across from the midpoint of this very short walk back to Smallwood. Then I learned that there was a Jail / courthouse a couple blocks to the south - another reason for police to likely be in the area. Now, there is an ER just a couple blocks to the south too. So yet another reason for police and paramedics to be in the area.
So given all of that, what are the odds that someone was sitting right there somewhere between Smallwood's entry door and Woodburn waiting for a barefoot woman with no phone, directly across from a place frequented by police at that hour, and just blocks from a Jail, courthouse, and ER where at any moment they could be spotted (and for that matter recorded on camera) and then risk grabbing her and having a struggle?

To me, that split second opportunity in such a high risk place of being caught in the act by LE seems implausible. Not impossible, just that odds seems so much against it, that it's the lowest on my list of possibilities.

Another troubling problem I have is that If JR is such a stand up guy, why wouldn't he stand up and walk her 2.5 blocks? That would seem like a small task knowing the hour, and the short distance.

Now assuming that JR is a good guy and she refused to let him walk her home, and he is telling the absolute truth... What do you think happened to her and When? Do you think it was a stranger sitting right there on that little strip of sidewalk between 11th and N. College and the Smallwood entry door at about 4:30am? A car with a total stranger sitting or driving far enough away that she wouldn't feel threatened, but suddenly maneuvers next to her and someone grabs her and tosses her in before she can run, or anyone can see(like the people in the Waffle House which may be police)? If not how do you see it based on the facts?

 

[VeryVeritas]

They've been circling for about 15-20mins now. It could be nothing, but I find it pretty strange.

I'm about an hour away and there was a very bright nearly full moon tonight. I used to be a pilot and with that kind of light you might see things that you can't see during intense daylight... it's like a big flashlight.

 

[VeryVeritas]

soo..the frat brothers confronted CR at Smallwood; most obviously b/c he was with their friends girlfriend. Not one of these guys tried to contact JW about went on before the next day - doubt it. Let's say they did contact him after the altercation; surely he tried to contact Lauren in some way before the next morning?

Each day it's posted that these guys(names?) (news to me is that they were frat bros of JW, previously I thought they were just "friends") punched CR simply because he was with Lauren
There really hasn't been anything to back that reason up. CR nor they have stated publicly why the altercation occurred and whether or not it had anything to do with her. But i do remember a few times early on reading in news reports that LE said the altercation DID NOT INVOLVE LS. Have you seen statements to the contrary?

The rest of what you state seems logical and should have been checked out by LE within a couple of hours at the beginning of this whole thing. If there was a communication link between JW's frat bros and JW which triggered JW into some action or other irrational behavior there should be evidence to arrest someone by now. It would seem at this point that JW's story checked out.

 

[webrocket]

Maybe if their names were used and they were not depersonalized then it would not be so easy to crucify him.

I never said everyone was however that post was disturbing as are the others that state Jay is a drug dealer.

I have read nothing about him in the news that indicated he was doing drugs or drinking. MB was sober. CR had been drinking and yes had done stupid things in the past however again there was nothing in the news about them doing drugs.

I am not saying they were not<modsnip> statements like he is the drug user and he hid her body in the trunk is disturbing.

We don't know the truth and I had thought that this place was were people discussed the facts that have come out and maybe brained stormed on ways to help or things that could have been overlooked.

Or pointed out what is being reported. I do not have the time to follow all the different news reports so I started reading here thinking I could quickly get a summation.

<modsnip>

I tend to avoid the really hot threads as the speculation goes off the charts and some of what is said might be considered by some to be slander or defamation.

the few posts I've made on Lauren's case have almost all been to convey my doubts that ANY of the students were involved in this. but there will always be some who feel that every person who ever spoke to Lauren should be fingerprinted, polygraphed, be forced to give statements and DNA samples, have their cell phones and laptops forensically examined, etc.

of course what I just described is absurd, our system of justice does not work that way and never has. each citizen has a Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures and no one can be compelled to speak to the police - EVER.

 

[shockedandappalled]

I've now seen it stated on an Examiner.com page by a Ms. Dyar at the IU school of law that "these guys are coke dealers" Since she is using her facebook to ID herself it certainly looks credible. Now, who the "guys" isn't clear. CR/MB definitely seem to be separating themselves from JR.

Could you please provide a link?

I went to examiner.com and searched for the article and nothing came up.

thank you

 

[shockedandappalled]

I tend to avoid the really hot threads as the speculation goes off the charts and some of what is said might be considered by some to be slander or defamation.

the few posts I've made on Lauren's case have almost all been to convey my doubts that ANY of the students were involved in this. but there will always be some who feel that every person who ever spoke to Lauren should be fingerprinted, polygraphed, be forced to give statements and DNA samples, have their cell phones and laptops forensically examined, etc.

of course what I just described is absurd, our system of justice does not work that way and never has. each citizen has a Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures and no one can be compelled to speak to the police - EVER.

Thank you for that information. Does this mean they cannot pull up cellphone records? I had thought they could.
I also was under the impression that they could force an interview if the person was a material witness to a crime.

But I guess I was wrong on that one so maybe I am on the cell phone issue as well.


Perhaps the people on these boards who are obviously very concerned about missing persons issue would think about lobbying our government for a change in the law in regards to missing persons.

I personally have a pet project of going after white collar criminals. However, since this happened to my daughter's community, I became interested.

BTW how come you got to use the "d" word and mine got blocked out?

 

[docwho3]

This case is pretty involved sounding.
I have not read all the posts from the beginning but I have done some
reading about the case on the web.

So far it seems we may have (not in any particular order)
drinking, a victim with a heart condition,
an altercation with friends of a boyfriend, Web articles cite rumors that
drug use might also be involved, an escort by a friend she was with that
night but he can't remember the altercation or what happened at that
crucial time, a purse between 2 buildings she visited is allegedly from an
unrelated murder, the building management people won't let LE view the
security images so LE breaks down the door & get the computers holding
the images.

Now no one seems to know where the missing young lady is.



==========================
'Indiana Police to Take Lauren Spierer Investigation to 'Next Level'
(Dated Jun 13)
http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpps/news/lauren-spierer-investigation-dpgonc-20110613-fc_13660638

***************************************************
(Jun 8)
'. . .Police are &#8220;working on polygraphs now,&#8221; he said, . . .'

' . . .Also, he said a purse found between Spierer&#8217;s apartment building and
another building she visited that night did not belong to her.
Parker said the purse belonged to a victim of an unrelated homicide. . .'

' . . .Video footage from security cameras at Lauren Spierer&#8217;s
apartment building show her and several men in an argument that morning.. . .'
http://www.democratandchronicle.com...dent-altercation-father-says?odyssey=nav|head
****************************************************

(Jun 6)
' . . .Search parties fanned out Monday looking for an
Indiana Univesity student with a dangerous heart condition. . .'
http://abcnewsradioonline.com/natio...tudent-lauren-spierer-missing-since-frid.html

'. . .Tuesday night, police issued a search warrant at the complex.
"We were denied access," said Lt. Bill Parker, Bloomington Police.
They had to bust the door down to get into the room holding the evidence. . .'
http://www.fox41.com/story/14866714/police-break-into

(I have seen at least 3 looks-like-a-news-site pages with this exact
same article. To me it is of doubtful origin.)
' . . . Police for the first time Monday acknowledged that they have received
information that missing Indiana University student Lauren Spierer
may have overdosed on cocaine . . .'
http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...indiana-student-drug-overdose-rumor13-ON.html

'. . .Making time even more crucial is Spierer's dangerous heart condition.
She has Long QT Syndrome, an irregular heartbeat.
"What can happen is...your heart doesn't recover quickly enough between
beats and you lose oxygen and it can result in your death," said Charlene Spierer.?. . .'
http://abcnewsradioonline.com/national-news/tag/lauren-spierer

 

[webrocket]

Thank you for that information. Does this mean they cannot pull up cellphone records? I had thought they could.
I also was under the impression that they could force an interview if the person was a material witness to a crime.

But I guess I was wrong on that one so maybe I am on the cell phone issue as well.


Perhaps the people on these boards who are obviously very concerned about missing persons issue would think about lobbying our government for a change in the law in regards to missing persons.

I personally have a pet project of going after white collar criminals. However, since this happened to my daughter's community, I became interested.

BTW how come you got to use the "d" word and mine got blocked out?

as for speaking to police, they can haul a person in but everyone can refuse to give statements. if a person agrees to give a statement, then he or she can be prosecuted if the statement was false or misleading. that's why Martha Stewart went to prison, not for insider trading but giving false statements to the police even though she had no obligation to speak to them.

I think that the only minimum level of cooperation one need to do is when asked by LE to identify one's self, then that person has to do that much. other than that, everyone is free to keep quiet.

as for cell phones, LE often issues subpoenas on the carriers to get records and if a valid subpoena is issued, then the carrier has to comply with it.

if a judge signs a search warrant that empowers the police to seize certain items, then that is a different story.

however, at this point I do not think there is a shred of evidence that any of these college kids committed any crime against Lauren. whether there were other crimes such as underage drinking, possession of false ID, drugs, etc., who knows?

I don't see a judge signing a warrant to seize these types of items unless something comes along that actually implicates these guys.

take it to a logical extreme. you got a handful of guys who supposedly saw Lauren in those last few hours. why stop at that? why not consider every guy she saw at Kilroy's to be a person of interest? how about everyone who lives in Smallwood? there are limits on what LE can do. sometimes it is just financial constraints and other time there are legal constraints such as the Constitution that prevent them from taking certain actions.

 

[shockedandappalled]

An emergency room a few blocks past smallwood too? Would that be to the south? I am increasingly amazed at how high profile this N. College stretch of just a couple blocks are. This is what I understand about it, so perhaps you can help me out here:

1) JR, the last to claim to seeing Lauren alive, and apparently the last to be with her, said he saw her walk to 11th and N. College. On previous threads here btown posted some great maps of the area. btown drew color codings to separate things and pinged JR's apt. There is a blue line headed south down N. College which I think indicates reports where it was said that JR saw her walking not just to the corner of 11th and N. College but down N. College. I remember reading those reports, not sure if it was an inaccuracy in reporting, or which statement he actually made. I think it does matter a little because if he did watch her walk nearly the first full block, that only leaves about 1.5 blocks to smallwood's door.
2) There are cameras on several of the buildings in the area pointing in different directions and some having covers that make it impossible to know where they are pointing. Of course we all know there are cameras at the begining and end of the Alley that goes between Smallwood and the gravel parking areas past Woodburn and behind CR/MB/JR's building to the south.
3) We know Amin and a friend were back over there in the Alley and found LS's small purse and keys around 3am.
4) We know that another young lady reports being in that Alley around 2:30am just prior to when CR/LS came through.
5) It seems that people felt safe walking down the Alley. Yet, LS supposedly walked home south on N. College. A walk that would not take but 3 to 5 minutes even in barefeet and still tipsy. Why would she not take the Alley back, I asked... I was told this would be safer... why I asked? Because it was so well lit up... and there is a Waffle house normally with police in it during these early morning hours directly across from the midpoint of this very short walk back to Smallwood. Then I learned that there was a Jail / courthouse a couple blocks to the south - another reason for police to likely be in the area. Now, there is an ER just a couple blocks to the south too. So yet another reason for police and paramedics to be in the area.
So given all of that, what are the odds that someone was sitting right there somewhere between Smallwood's entry door and Woodburn waiting for a barefoot woman with no phone, directly across from a place frequented by police at that hour, and just blocks from a Jail, courthouse, and ER where at any moment they could be spotted (and for that matter recorded on camera) and then risk grabbing her and having a struggle?

To me, that split second opportunity in such a high risk place of being caught in the act by LE seems implausible. Not impossible, just that odds seems so much against it, that it's the lowest on my list of possibilities.

Another troubling problem I have is that If JR is such a stand up guy, why wouldn't he stand up and walk her 2.5 blocks? That would seem like a small task knowing the hour, and the short distance.

Now assuming that JR is a good guy and she refused to let him walk her home, and he is telling the absolute truth... What do you think happened to her and When? Do you think it was a stranger sitting right there on that little strip of sidewalk between 11th and N. College and the Smallwood entry door at about 4:30am? A car with a total stranger sitting or driving far enough away that she wouldn't feel threatened, but suddenly maneuvers next to her and someone grabs her and tosses her in before she can run, or anyone can see(like the people in the Waffle House which may be police)? If not how do you see it based on the facts?

Aaah the wonders of the internet. I posted a long post and it got eaten.

Shorter version.

The hospital is 8-9 blocks south of the town homes and 1 block west.


I am not saying Jay is a stand up guy b/c I don't know the guy. I don't think any guy who doesn't walk a girl home at 4:30 am is a stand up guy but that doesn't make him a drug dealer either. Probably the majority of men would not walk a girl home that insisted on leaving.

Yes I think that strangers passing by in a car is a plausible explanation especially if when Lauren hit Woodburn (if that is what the small street is called just south of 11th) went back to look for her missing keys that she just realized she did not have.

I think that if they can ID the car then it might break this case or if someone comes forward with more information.

 

[illinialum]

Hadar Tamir, Spierer's roommate at Smallwood Plaza apartments, on Monday filled in more details of that morning, saying Spierer was hanging out with her until 12:30 a.m., then went with another Smallwood resident, David Rohn, to friend Jay Rosenbaum's apartment up the street.

Spierer, Rohn and Rosenbaum watched a basketball game at Rosenbaum's, said Tamir, who is friends with Rohn and Rosenbaum. They were joined there by Corey Rossman, who lives two doors down, she said.

New information at two sources:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...college-student?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

http://www.examiner.com/criminal-pr...riend-statement-the-drug-rumor-and-the-police

Oh, man, so much new activity upon waking up this morning! I'm going to be late to work for reading it all.

 

[illinialum]

Also, unless they were watching the game tape-delayed, the above quote makes no sense to me. The game was over around 11. I live in Central Time and watched that same game myself.

Why was she going over after 12:30 to watch that basketball game? (I think I read in the other article that the game they watched was the same game that JW watched, which I believe was the NBA playoffs)