PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

[Lord_Chatterly]

I couldn't sleep so I re-read LC's excellent article about Mrs. Ivy Butterworth's sighting of Ray with a young blonde lady in his Mini.

Here's what we know from the news article:
1) Mrs. Butterworth states that her daughter works in the SOS. So she has a grown offspring.
2) Mrs. Butterworth also states that she saw the Mini while she was out jogging along the streets in the SOS area..

So, she is probably in her mid 40's to mid 50's but probably not older or much younger.
When a person in their mid 40's describes another female as " young", I'm thinking the lady looked to be in her 20's. PROBABLY in the age range of Mrs. Butterworth's daughter's age.

This is all info which is in the news article Lord Chatterly posted a couple of days ago. I didn't do any type of people search to obtain the info. The witness gave it to the newspaper herself.

The only new thought I have had was-- could this *possibly* have been Lara Gricar or a friend of hers? I think the age range is only slightly older than Lara's age.

Thanks!

Good deductive reasoning. The same for Allison S !!! Pretty well summarizes the 'age' of LYB...to me, anyway...thanks

 

[AllisonS]

She inherited and has brothers, so I'm assuming that it might have been a settlement of the estate, i.e. she bought off her siblings share. If that is the case, the mortgage may have been much smaller than thought. Also, by the time he moved in, I think she was paying on it for a few years.

As I said, RFG contributed to the household expenses, but he could have just come home one day and said, "I'm leaving." I'd be calling the guy a bounder if he lived there and made PEF pay for everything.

It could also have been a home equity mortgage. From about 2000-2005 these were super popular as a way to tap the skyrocketing "equity" that everyone's house seemed to have. Is it possible that one was taken out and the money was put somewhere for future use if it wasn't actually used on a home project?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It could also have been a home equity mortgage. From about 2000-2005 these were super popular as a way to tap the skyrocketing "equity" that everyone's house seemed to have. Is it possible that one was taken out and the money was put somewhere for future use if it wasn't actually used on a home project?

That is a possibility, and a good suggestion, though we don't know about what else it could be used for.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Someone should send this thread to Sarah Ganim at the Harrisburg Patriot-news. Great stuff over the Last few days!

Thanks for joining in. Yes, it has been good for us the last few days. Sure would be good to have our discussion taken seriously. What the heck...get Vinnie Politano at HLN in on this too !!!


One more time : http://www.ccnnews8.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3311:new-details-on-missing-da&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=74

Also the Full Text on Post #677 Page 28

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

It could also have been a home equity mortgage. From about 2000-2005 these were super popular as a way to tap the skyrocketing "equity" that everyone's house seemed to have. Is it possible that one was taken out and the money was put somewhere for future use if it wasn't actually used on a home project?

Perhaps the Mini was paid off and another reason why it was put in PF's name.

 

[SeekingJana]

Just thinking about PEF being "controlling":

1. RFG is her boss and can fire her.

2. RFG, while he did contribute to the household bills, didn't pay rent.

3. RFG bought the Mini as a "gift," put it in PEF's name, but drove it almost exclusively.

4. RFG liked to travel, so they went where he liked to go. They were going to travel across the country, but go to his daughter's house. There first date was Cleveland.

5. RFG was planning to retire, so, at 40-41, PEF would stop working and join him.

If that is "controlling," I'd hate to see "doormat."

Playing :dervish: <-- devil's advocate here.

I think some people could perhaps argue that Patty was so manipulative that she could:

1) Get and keep not one, but at least 2 different positions in her live- in lover's office. She got paid to hang around her BF all day every day.. keep an eye on him..( College field of study unknown to me but IMO, a victim advocate should be a LPC or other lower level licensed therapist.)

2) Her boyfriend of only 2 years, while not paying rent, paid off her house mortgage and with his salary, contribuated greatly to their overall financial health.

3) Patty thought she wanted a Mini in 2004. She asked for and got one from her boyfriend, who knew there would be hell to pay if he didn't give her what she wanted. After it was purchased for her, and personalized license plate had been ordered and registered for her, she found that she really didn't like to drive the car and preferred something else. She planned to ask for a new model _____ for her next birthday ( or Christmas),

4) She was quitting work in a few months to live off her BF's retirement payments for what she planned to be the rest of their lives, and was finally going to get to see the country. All free of charge. She would have gone anywhere on dates with him because everyone knows, it's not the place that counts, it's getting the older man with an important career and title to go along with it, as befitting the Fornicola name. Her ship had come in and she ran up that gangplank!!

See? I'm looking at it from a woman's POV. One who has never quite given PFo a clean pass on everything.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Playing :dervish: <-- devil's advocate here.

I think some people could perhaps argue that Patty was so manipulative that she could:

1) Get and keep not one, but at least 2 different positions in her live- in lover's office. She got paid to hang around her BF all day every day.. keep an eye on him..( College field of study unknown to me but IMO, a victim advocate should be a LPC or other lower level licensed therapist.)

She had the first before she she became involved with RFG. Her major was Administration of Justice and she was formerly a probation officer.

2) Her boyfriend of only 2 years, while not paying rent, paid off her house mortgage and with his salary, contribuated greatly to their overall financial health.

True, but he lived there, rent free.

3) Patty thought she wanted a Mini in 2004. She asked for and got one from her boyfriend, who knew there would be hell to pay if he didn't give her what she wanted. After it was purchased for her, and personalized license plate had been ordered and registered for her, she found that she really didn't like to drive the car and preferred something else. She planned to ask for a new model _____ for her next birthday ( or Christmas),

She kept her own car, a Honda. RFG's prior car, a red convertible.

4) She was quitting work in a few months to live off her BF's retirement payments for what she planned to be the rest of their lives, and was finally going to get to see the country. All free of charge. She would have gone anywhere on dates with him because everyone knows, it's nolt the place that counts, it's getting the older man with an important career and title to go along with it, as befitting the Fornicola name. Her ship had come in and she ran up that gangplank!!

That career was over in 8 1/2 months and, according to RFG, he had planned that since 2001. She didn't even go away to school and she hasn't decided to start a new life in a distant city. She seems tied to Bellefonte. Obviously, after her divorce, she could have relocated. She didn't. It wasn't RFG holding her there.

 

[SeekingJana]

She had the first before she she became involved with RFG. Her major was Administration of Justice and she was formerly a probation officer.

OK, so she saw him and went after him in his own office. Is that supposed to be somehow better?


True, but he lived there, rent free.

IF you paid for a house, wouldn't you want to live in it? Come on.




She kept her own car, a Honda. RFG's prior car, a red convertible.

Most likely, her choice because she liked it better.



That career was over in 8 1/2 months and, according to RFG, he had planned that since 2001. She didn't even go away to school and she hasn't decided to start a new life in a distant city. She seems tied to Bellefonte. Obviously, after her divorce, she could have relocated. She didn't. It wasn't RFG holding her there.

What do his plans have to do with the fact that she was not only along for the ride, but holding on with both hands?
SO, she was so unmotivated with her educational goals early in life that she didn't go away to college. What does that have to do with her living with RG 20 or so years later?
Her family ties in Centre County were all documented, by KA, I believe. She has every reason to stay where she is. It's all she KNOWS. Very typical small town mentality.

This is a woman who was SO controlling and insecure that she called his cell phone just after 5 PM, states she called repeatedly when she got his VM, called her brother before 9 PM, and then proceeded to call 911 for what was at that time, a non-emergency.
How many people do you think she knew in the police station that night?
A non- 911 call would most likely not be documented.
A 911 call definitely was documented.
What better way to embarrass a late- arriving BF who happened to be the DA?

The quote thing didn't work right. Maybe you can figure out which are my comments LOL.

 

[AllisonS]

Playing :dervish: <-- devil's advocate here.

I think some people could perhaps argue that Patty was so manipulative that she could:

1) Get and keep not one, but at least 2 different positions in her live- in lover's office. She got paid to hang around her BF all day every day.. keep an eye on him..( College field of study unknown to me but IMO, a victim advocate should be a LPC or other lower level licensed therapist.)

2) Her boyfriend of only 2 years, while not paying rent, paid off her house mortgage and with his salary, contribuated greatly to their overall financial health.

3) Patty thought she wanted a Mini in 2004. She asked for and got one from her boyfriend, who knew there would be hell to pay if he didn't give her what she wanted. After it was purchased for her, and personalized license plate had been ordered and registered for her, she found that she really didn't like to drive the car and preferred something else. She planned to ask for a new model _____ for her next birthday ( or Christmas),

4) She was quitting work in a few months to live off her BF's retirement payments for what she planned to be the rest of their lives, and was finally going to get to see the country. All free of charge. She would have gone anywhere on dates with him because everyone knows, it's not the place that counts, it's getting the older man with an important career and title to go along with it, as befitting the Fornicola name. Her ship had come in and she ran up that gangplank!!

See? I'm looking at it from a woman's POV. One who has never quite given PFo a clean pass on everything.

Or, playing devils advocate to your devils advocate...

Maybe he was really the one obsessed with her. Maybe he did all of these things to keep this young woman interested in an old(er) man. I don't know...just thinking. If the big haired blond wasn't a love interest, it's possible that he adored Patty and did all these things to try and keep her interested in him..and his disappearance had absolutely nothing to do with their relationship status.

 

[SeekingJana]

Or, playing devils advocate to your devils advocate...

Maybe he was really the one obsessed with her. Maybe he did all of these things to keep this young woman interested in an old(er) man. I don't know...just thinking. If the big haired blond wasn't a love interest, it's possible that he adored Patty and did all these things to try and keep her interested in him..and his disappearance had absolutely nothing to do with their relationship status.

LOL, I really have no idea what their daily interaction was like.
All I know is that she is barely able to control her anger on Ray's " Disappeared" segment.. She has segments which were taped at different times, and the anger is always there, just below the surface.

Personally, I hope the beautiful and charming PFo moves on with her life. Finds someone new to be happy with, marries the chap, and all that. Maybe has a child with ART.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What do his plans have to do with the fact that she was not only along for the ride, but holding on with both hands?
SO, she was so unmotivated with her educational goals early in life that she didn't go away to college. What does that have to do with her living with RG 20 or so years later?
Her family ties in Centre County were all documented, by KA, I believe. She has every reason to stay where she is. It's all she KNOWS. Very typical small town mentality.

As far as I know JKA never mentioned it. I am saying that traveling may not have any great appeal to her. She was traveling because RFG liked to. That is not controlling.

This is a woman who was SO controlling and insecure that she called his cell phone just after 5 PM, states she called repeatedly when she got his VM, called her brother before 9 PM, and then proceeded to call 911 for what was at that time, a non-emergency.

She started call when he didn't show up after dinner. RFG was known to be an "adventurous driver." He told PEF he was on a country road. The road has areas where cell signals do not carry. The thinking at that point was an accident, which I would have assumed.

How many people do you think she knew in the police station that night?
A non- 911 call would most likely not be documented.
A 911 call definitely was documented.
What better way to embarrass a late- arriving BF who happened to be the DA?

Or find one trapped in a wrecked car. He didn't say, "I'm spending the day in Lewisburg" or "I'm going to spend the day in State College." He said that heading into a remote area with no cell coverage.

This was a guy who liked to drive fast, in a fast car, heading into a remote area with no cell coverage, from what RFG told PEF. He wasn't periodically checking his voice mail, or at least wasn't responding to it.

 

[AllisonS]

As someone who is in what others may deem to be an unusual relationship, and also as I'm childless by choice, I've been on the other end of people's speculations and can understand why Patty might be angry..even if she had nothing to do with his disappearance and even if she wasn't trying to keep him under her thumb. It's hard to have people speculate that you are the bad guy all the time, or that you are desperate to keep someone (where you are or aren't-the speculation can take it's toll).

So while there's always the chance that it is exactly as some speculate, there's also the chance that he truly adored her and life was exactly as he wanted it with her. Imagine being thrust into the spotlight, especially if you are a quiet mouse of a person, and also being villianized by many at the same time as you are reeling from losing your beloved. I would be angry too. (of course, I am not a mouse of a person and would come out fighting, so I'm sure many people would say I was too angry on that aspect) Again, not saying it isn't exactly as some imagine, but I do think there's a chance that her anger comes from a place that is very different from what some theorize.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

LOL, I really have no idea what their daily interaction was like.
All I know is that she is barely able to control her anger on Ray's " Disappeared" segment.. She has segments which were taped at different times, and the anger is always there, just below the surface.

If she thinks he left her, that could explain the anger. She basically stopped talking to the press, for the most part, after the LMW was emphasized.

 

[AllisonS]

If she thinks he left her, that could explain the anger. She basically stopped talking to the press, for the most part, after the LMW was emphasized.

That's kind of what I was thinking.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

As someone who is in what others may deem to be an unusual relationship, and also as I'm childless by choice, I've been on the other end of people's speculations and can understand why Patty might be angry..even if she had nothing to do with his disappearance and even if she wasn't trying to keep him under her thumb. It's hard to have people speculate that you are the bad guy all the time, or that you are desperate to keep someone (where you are or aren't-the speculation can take it's toll).

So while there's always the chance that it is exactly as some speculate, there's also the chance that he truly adored her and life was exactly as he wanted it with her. Imagine being thrust into the spotlight, especially if you are a quiet mouse of a person, and also being villianized by many at the same time as you are reeling from losing your beloved. I would be angry too. (of course, I am not a mouse of a person and would come out fighting, so I'm sure many people would say I was too angry on that aspect) Again, not saying it isn't exactly as some imagine, but I do think there's a chance that her anger comes from a place that is very different from what some theorize.

Good insight from your point of view. I've tried to avoid the 'Patty' bashing, as I am sure she is hurting on RFG's disappearance, and all after the LMW (and now the 'new' Blondie thing). In large measure, I give her credit to continue her life as she had...not running off to do the start anew thing. I can well understand her anger as has been described here...yes, it seems obvious to me also. Thanks for your insights from your side of this. I believe it merits for some better thinking by all of us.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I couldn't sleep so I re-read LC's excellent article about Mrs. Ivy Butterworth's sighting of Ray with a young blonde lady in his Mini.

Here's what we know from the news article:
1) Mrs. Butterworth states that her daughter works in the SOS. So she has a grown offspring.
2) Mrs. Butterworth also states that she saw the Mini while she was out jogging along the streets in the SOS area..

So, she is probably in her mid 40's to mid 50's but probably not older or much younger.
When a person in their mid 40's describes another female as " young", I'm thinking the lady looked to be in her 20's. PROBABLY in the age range of Mrs. Butterworth's daughter's age.

This is all info which is in the news article Lord Chatterly posted a couple of days ago. I didn't do any type of people search to obtain the info. The witness gave it to the newspaper herself.

The only new thought I have had was-- could this *possibly* have been Lara Gricar or a friend of hers? I think the age range is only slightly older than Lara's age.
Thanks!

Good thought. May be too soon to jump on the Ray Ran Off with a Young Blonde...at least for now !

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

JJ's right. Mechanical damage like a hammer won't do it. Think of a cassette tape ( you know, back in the 80's when we were children). You could, if you were careful and valued the tape extremely, remove a pretty banged up tape from your car dash and patch it up and get it to play again.
Same thing with a HD. Basically, it only contains two numbers 0s and 1s.

You can freeze it, burn it ( Space shuttle Columbia), smash it and data recovery specialists can still read your HD.

There are 2 methods of HD erasure known to me:
1) Very strong magnet for at least 24 hours followed by 2) Overwriting the complete HD code with random 0s and 1s. That's what the " wiping" programs do.

The water only corroded the metallic parts. The data was erased/ changed by the program or programs Ray used. And I'm going to hell for telling people how to erase their or someone else's HD.

Ok, I surrender. Just spent some time on Google...did an RFG search on "How to Destroy a Hard Drive"...and walked into a freaky world. There is a virtual lifetime one could spend on this process, and I see MUCH has changed since my early days toying with the "Hard" side of these here "Pooters". Thanks for your input, and RFG must really been obsessed with this erasure of the HD...must have been some very disturbing info he had there.

I have two old computers I have to deal with...hmmm...Tallahassee Bridge perhaps ? LoL...j/k

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is what I wrote on trying to destroy a hard drive:

http://www.centredaily.com/2010/10/26/2406806/destroying-a-hard-drive.html

It is not easy.

 

[SeekingJana]

Good insight from your point of view. I've tried to avoid the 'Patty' bashing, as I am sure she is hurting on RFG's disappearance, and all after the LMW (and now the 'new' Blondie thing). In large measure, I give her credit to continue her life as she had...not running off to do the start anew thing. I can well understand her anger as has been described here...yes, it seems obvious to me also. Thanks for your insights from your side of this. I believe it merits for some better thinking by all of us.

In my defense, JJ started this by painting Patty as the doormat victim of RG. IMO, she's not. She is a girlfriend whose boyfriend either left her or died 6.5 years ago. What he really did though, was to call RG a " BULLY" without saying so.
IF PF was a " doormat", then RG stepped all over her. No, I don't believe it and I hope he doesn't believe it either. If he does, then he must intensely dislike the person he has written about for years- Ray Gricar.


Another thing- which no one has ever addressed on here to the best of my knowledge, is this:
How many searches did PFo organize or take part in?
How many times was she seen in Lewisburg, or anywhere else, looking for Ray?
The answer is none, as far as is known. She did nothing for the man she supposedly loved so much except call 911.
And in almost 7 years,. STILL hasn't held a memorial service for him.
So, I really don't see the outpouring of loving actions post- disappearance, which is when we started to know SOMETHING about her. I'm sure she has been sad and so forth. But a GF of only 2 years? She is NOT a weeping widow. He's been gone 3 times as long as he was with her!!

We cannot think of these people, any of them, in only black and white!!! When JJ does that, I call him out on it. He had stopped doing it here, that's WHY I came back to this forum.
.
I should have pointed out that what he was doing was calling RG a less than stellar person in saying Patty was used as his doormat.
He has never ever been a PF sympathizer.
I don't like smoke and mirrors. I don't think for one second that he believes what he posted-- the list of why a healthy 40 something year old woman would be RG's " doormat:".

To use HER to demean RG is just not right; WS has a long- standing policy of respecting a missing person. That includes not going through the back door to call them a bully or a user of people.
Besides, I do not believe that ANY adult with normal mental function will or can be used. People make choices about relationships based upon what they want to do ( especially when children are not involved). Patty is not a simpleton and Ray is not a hard- nosed bully. What they did and planned to do is virtually unknown to us. We only have small snippets of what SHE said. We don't have his POV at all.

Today, I just wanted to show him that others can do the exact same thing in rebuttal. I'd never done so before, and I regret doing so about Patty

This topic is turning into the hot mess it used to be again. ONE person cannot say whatever comes to mind about Ray Gricar. WS has a policy of not re-victimizing the missing or dead.

I feel extremely saddened that both RG and PF were not held in high esteem today and most of all, I regret that I responded in the way that I did.
I will be taking a break until things are back on an even keel here. If that doesn't happen, then I will always pray for RG's health and safety.

 

[SeekingJana]

Ok, I surrender. Just spent some time on Google...did an RFG search on "How to Destroy a Hard Drive"...and walked into a freaky world. There is a virtual lifetime one could spend on this process, and I see MUCH has changed since my early days toying with the "Hard" side of these here "Pooters". Thanks for your input, and RFG must really been obsessed with this erasure of the HD...must have been some very disturbing info he had there.

I have two old computers I have to deal with...hmmm...Tallahassee Bridge perhaps ? LoL...j/k

Tallahassee Bridge is in FL. Do you know where the Tallahatchie bridge was when the song was written? ( It has collapsed since.. showing my age again-- but I was really young when the song was a hit)

Thanks for the smiles, LC. Your post made me stop and think about what was REALLY being said here today. I feel very ashamed about my part in it.. Sometimes. buttons get pushed and I have to stop and think " Why did that upset me so"? It's because RG does not deserve to be dragged through the mud, doormat waiting or not.

Hope to post with you again. Carry on!!