17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #35

[cityslick]

I really like your post. I find it disturbing that following someone is purported to be "legal" because there is no law against it and therefore that's all that matters. That using a gun against an unarmed boy who was just minding his own business is legal. That wearing a hoodie and being black makes one a person suspected of something illegal. Suspicion and paranoia run rampant. Not only that, they are legitimised by a large majority of people. If you can be questioned by a perfect stranger, and it's perfectly legal and kosher, while walking down the street, you have lost your freedom. Add a concealed gun and you may lose your life.

Totalitarianism breeds paranoia, and is driven by ideology. I see little difference between other regimes in history and what is happening now. As a mere observer, I think ideology seems to be running roughshod over true freedom and down in Florida, you are only truly free if you carry a gun. When I can no longer walk down the street because it is someone's right, who has no authority, to accost me and question my right to be walking down the street, it's time for me to find another country to live in; it isn't safe. Shades of the past. Truly scary. Especially because people like to righteously fool themselves about it, with, as you say, a lot of mental gymnastics (aka tortured logic).

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

BBM

What is 'right' and what is 'legal' are not always one and the same. You may not like the fact that he got out of his car, you may not think it's 'right' that he asked him a question, but it's not against the law. Just like it's not against the law for you to be sitting at a bar minding your own business and some stranger asks your name and to buy you a drink, even if you want no part of dealing with strangers.

 

[Emeralgem]

iirc, it has been reported that the GF/FRIEND ONLY has stated that she heard TM say "why are you following me?" FOLLOWED by GZ responding "What are you doing here?" Now it's JMOO but that sounds like TM confronting GZ to me and those words come from the parents attorney B Crump. All MOO but there are multiple links through these threads.

Not necessarily... Not IF GZ took a cut through and suddenly once again appeared in front of TM as he was headed to his father's girlfirend's townhouse..We all know TM told his girlfriend someone was following him..We ALL know TM stated he thought he had lost his stalker..
So IMHO.. IF GZ suddenly once again appears on the scene he is the one who was doing the confronting and IMHO Trayvon had every right to ask him.."why are you following me"..JMHO

 

[suzihawk]

First, I don't think asking someone what you are doing in the neighborhood is a *nice* question to ask, necessarily. And I would bet it wasn't asked particularly nicely in this case. Certainly different than just saying hi, how're you doing? Or, to take suzi's classic example, can you help me find my puppy?

Second, what I would tell my little kid v. my teenaged son might be quite different. But I don't have a teenaged son, so I don't know that yet. What I do know, is that he will be unlikely to listen to me no matter what I say lol

All I can say is that you can't prepare your kids for every eventuality, so all you can do is teach them to use good judgment in the particular circumstance, and provide them with examples of what they might do if such and such happens. Honestly, and to your point, I don't think the precise scenario of this case is something that any parent previously would have thought to provide specific advice about. I just think that, given what is undisputed (at this point) about the exchange between Trayvon and George, that the best thing to do may have been for Trayvon just to have identified himself, and also that the argument that he was in legit fear of a random psychopath doesn't make too much sense to me under the circumstances.

jmo

I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

If only Trayvon had been polite, he wouldn't have been shot dead by a man on a mission? I just can't even wrap my head around such an absurd assumption!

My opinion.

 

[RANCH]

I believe that this Florida statute is the one which may be applicable to this case.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

 

[Gaia713]

JMO/IMO
I am respectful this is your opinion.

I'm not sure GZ was a random psychopath, but he certainly wasn't a good guy that night.

I will always be protective of children and teens. I don't believe they have any obligation to reassure armed adults of their "intent".
I hope at some point sanity returns to Florida. It is still part of the USA, isn't it???? You know, personal freedom and all that jazz???

I know my cousin has told all three of her boys to be VERY careful when they are out on their own - never wear their hoods up and be aware. What's frightening is that she even has to tell them this.

 

[katydid23]

The conclusion offered, earlier in the post that started the discussion, was that the owner would have not reported it stolen, just gotten their insurance money and moved on. The TRUTH of the matter is, that IF there was a THEFT, there would have to be a police report in order to turn it in to insurance. Since there was NO REPORT OF STOLEN JEWELRY....the logical conclusion is it was NOT stolen.

The idea proposed in the quoted post....that somehow TM must have stolen the jewelry in ANOTHER STATE, without a car to get there.....and then come back to Miami (no other state anywhere within many, many HOURS of that city) doesn't seem in any way based in logic-- even if one WANTS to assume the items were stolen.

JMO of course.

BBM

I do not agree that it is a logical conclusion that no police report means there is no crime. There are many crimes that go unreported for various reasons. Not reporting something does not mean it never happened. imo

And I didn't see anyone accusing TM of stealing the jewelry in another state, or of actually stealing anything. But the question still remains, what was he doing with women's diamond earrings and rings in his school backpack? If it did have an innocent explanation, why not just tell the school who it belonged to?

And there is a reason it is important info. NOBODY says he deserved to be shot that night. Nobody. The question about his school suspensions goes to his level of 'suspicious' behavior that night. At school he trespassed onto closed area and spray painted graffitti and he MAY have had stolen jewelry in his possession, so is it possible that he MAY have been doing a similar pattern of suspicious behavior that night? I think it is fair for the defense to ask that question, imo.

 

[HiHater]

Is this computer system for matching stolen items limited to local thefts or is this nationwide?

It's nationwide.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm

PURPOSE: The purpose for maintaining the NCIC system is to provide a computerized database for ready access by a criminal justice agency making an inquiry and for prompt disclosure of information in the system from other criminal justice agencies about crimes and criminals. This information assists authorized agencies in criminal justice and related law enforcement objectives, such as apprehending fugitives, locating missing persons, locating and returning stolen property, as well as in the protection of the law enforcement officers encountering the individuals described in the system.

Trayvon was stealing property from other states...if he had used the same car he drove across state lines to get to 7-11, he'd still be alive! :waitasec:

 

[Gaia713]

I believe that this Florida statute is the one which may be applicable to this case.



http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

The keyword is REASONABLE. What would make it reasonable for Zimmerman to believe that Martin had a gun? If Martin did punch him (and I'm not sure this happened), why wouldn't he have pulled a gun to get Zimmerman to back off instead of punching him?

Clearly, Zimmerman's injuries were minor enough to be treated with first aid. I believe the problems in the complex were BURLARIES, not ROBBERIES. Burglars usually just want to get in and out and not get caught. Burglary is not usually a violent crime. Yet Zimmerman felt the need to carry a violent weapon to deal with non-violent issues. He was looking for a fight imo.

 

[Karmady]

I'm guessing you're not a barely 17 year old ?????

I wish. But, obviously, I can never speak from Trayvon's perspective because, although I have been 17 years old, I have never been a 17 yo male and have never been in that precise situation.

 

[cityslick]

The keyword is REASONABLE. What would make it reasonable for Zimmerman to believe that Martin had a gun? If Martin did punch him (and I'm not sure this happened), why wouldn't he have pulled a gun to get Zimmerman to back off instead of punching him?

Clearly, Zimmerman's injuries were minor enough to be treated with first aid. I believe the problems in the complex were BURLARIES, not ROBBERIES. Burglars usually just want to get in and out and not get caught. Burglary is not usually a violent crime. Yet Zimmerman felt the need to carry a violent weapon to deal with non-violent issues. He was looking for a fight imo.

How do you know he didn't carry his gun wherever he went? Isn't that why people get a CCP or is it just people looking for a fight?

 

[HiHater]

BBM

I do not agree that it is a logical conclusion that no police report means there is no crime. There are many crimes that go unreported for various reasons. Not reporting something does not mean it never happened. imo

And I didn't see anyone accusing TM of stealing the jewelry in another state, or of actually stealing anything. But the question still remains, what was he doing with women's diamond earrings and rings in his school backpack? If it did have an innocent explanation, why not just tell the school who it belonged to?

And there is a reason it is important info. NOBODY says he deserved to be shot that night. Nobody. The question about his school suspensions goes to his level of 'suspicious' behavior that night. At school he trespassed onto closed area and spray painted graffitti and he MAY have had stolen jewelry in his possession, so is it possible that he MAY have been doing a similar pattern of suspicious behavior that night? I think it is fair for the defense to ask that question, imo.

Why are we making a leap that GZ didn't? His school suspensions have nothing to do with his suspicious behavior that night. GZ described exactly what he thought was suspicious (walking about, walking toward me, staring, etc.) He never once mentions casing houses or any type of behavior that would be associated with stealing or burglary.

If we use the school suspensions, then let's use GZ's run ins with LE and his domestic violence history to show that he was violent and had a knack for picking on people more vulnerable than himself.

:moo::twocents:

 

[Gin]

The keyword is REASONABLE. What would make it reasonable for Zimmerman to believe that Martin had a gun? If Martin did punch him (and I'm not sure this happened), why wouldn't he have pulled a gun to get Zimmerman to back off instead of punching him?

Clearly, Zimmerman's injuries were minor enough to be treated with first aid. I believe the problems in the complex were BURLARIES, not ROBBERIES. Burglars usually just want to get in and out and not get caught. Burglary is not usually a violent crime. Yet Zimmerman felt the need to carry a violent weapon to deal with non-violent issues. He was looking for a fight imo.

And this is just my opinion, others may vary....
To me, in GZ's mind, things (possessions) were far more important than the life of black teen.
Why else would someone stalk, and then shoot to kill over PREVIOUS burglaries?
I think he was hoping for some sort of public accolade...like a feature article in the condo newsletter or a citizen's attaboy award from the Sanford Police.

 

[rotterdam]

JMO/IMO

Since SYG, I'm not sure what parents should teach. Stranger danger is probably out the window, though. Maybe it's time for the stranger is your friend, do whatever he tells you to....we just don't want you to be shot.
In the end, the stranger can shoot to kill, and as long as he depicts a "reasonable" scenario to LE, he might just get away with it.

And never ever reach for your waist band at any time. This has been used by multiple perpetrators (LE included) in homicides of an unarmed victim. Better to stick both your arms in the air with open palms. Or may be a bullet proof vest
for high risk kids should be standard attire when venturing out on the streets..

 

[Karmady]

JMO/IMO
I am respectful this is your opinion.

I'm not sure GZ was a random psychopath, but he certainly wasn't a good guy that night.

I will always be protective of children and teens. I don't believe they have any obligation to reassure armed adults of their "intent".
I hope at some point sanity returns to Florida. It is still part of the USA, isn't it???? You know, personal freedom and all that jazz???

And I hope you know I respect that you have your opinion as well, and also the respectful dialogue.

re the bbm~

I don't either. I just think that, in this situation, it would have made more sense for Trayvon to have done so and, imo, could possibly have defused the situation to the point where we wouldn't be here discussing his untimely death. jmo

 

[rotterdam]

If you flip it around, of course Trayvon could have felt, and probably did feel, that he belonged where he was. However, he also likely did realize, imo, that he was not in a neighborhood where he is familiar to the neighbors. But most importantly, he was in tiny gated community at the time. I believe it only had three streets or so. He wasn't walking down a public street or in an obviously dangerous neighborhood where, imo, you might more reasonably draw the conclusion that someone who was following you and asked what you were doing there was just some random creeper. I live in a similarly tiny gated community and I would assume, I think reasonably based on that question, that whomever was following me didn't intend to throw me into his vehicle or similar. To my mind, it's just not a question that is likely to be asked by a predator. It's a question that would be asked by someone who also belonged where they were and is suspicious of what *I* was doing there. Rightly or wrongly. jmo

You forgot the part where Trayvon was a BLACK teen. Historically and sadly such a kid has more reasons to be scared of a stranger than a white kid. JMO

 

[elementary]

I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

If only Trayvon had been polite, he wouldn't have been shot dead by a man on a mission? I just can't even wrap my head around such an absurd assumption!

My opinion.

Yes, and there is no reason for Trayvon to fear that the guy following him was a random psychopath, but there is every reason for George to be suspicious of a black kid in a hoodie.

 

[Karmady]

I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

If only Trayvon had been polite, he wouldn't have been shot dead by a man on a mission? I just can't even wrap my head around such an absurd assumption!

My opinion.

I never said he had to be respectful or polite. What I said was, I think he should have/might most logically have identified himself to avoid any escalation of the confrontation and to avoid being shot, if that was truly his fear in that moment. Not to be "polite," not because he was "obligated" to, just because, under all the circumstances I am aware of, it seems like it would have been the best thing to do. jmo

 

[Gaia713]

How do you know he didn't carry his gun wherever he went? Isn't that why people get a CCP or is it just people looking for a fight?

Unless a person is in a consistently threatened position (such as a police officer) imo there is no need to carry a concealed weapon.

 

[rossva]

BBM
Ok, now I am confused. Was some one in addition to George Zimmerman following Martin?

Yes, and there is no reason for Trayvon to fear that the guy following him was a random psychopath, but there is every reason for George to be suspicious of a black kid in a hoodie.

 

[tpgks]

I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

:floorlaugh:

JMO, of course.