The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

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Rodney Stafford asked for the TRUTH.

IMO, one could also call MTR evil and sadistic, and, a coward.

What more could MR add you ask? Why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything?

Are you serious?

He allegedly kidnapped, sexually assaulted, murdered and buried Rodney's 8 year old girl.

The LEAST he could do, is offer up some truth.

If there are people here who would even question Victoria's loved ones right to that, then there isn't too much else to say, is there?

JMO
FIRST of all please don't twist my words to fit something I did not say... that is not playing fair ball game .... I am not questioning RS about anything and I have no wish to deny him anything ... He knows the truth ..the truth that matters that is.. his daughter died at the hands of an evil person as she testified in court....I am stating why I feel that there is nothing else that MR could add or take away from the way RS is feeling now and will feel for the rest of his life.IMO...there is no peace to be had from any of this...one has confessed to being the murderer and in gory detail...shocking...even if there were 10 more it wouldn't make or break the fact that the child was murdered..in a horrific way... that is how I feel but I do not appreciate someone twisting anything I have to say to fit their belief..I am cut and dry in all my posts...I don't pussy foot around because I have no need to..I appreciate all other posters even if I don't agree with what they post...I will debate something but I will never twist another posters point of view to something that the poster did not write .. and post same.......JMO

respectfully...
 
Okay thanks Ardy I will go re-read some of those tweets. There are just some I would rather not re-read and it is difficult to know when I might see one. Thanks for your input.
Like I said I do not think you made anything up just wanted confirmation this was said on the stand, not written articles etc.
I agree she did not want help but I also believe she did not know how to accept help because she was just so damn angry.
Sorry Ardy I was calling you Andy, I need me some glasses.

It is so sad that TLM didn't get any love, and along come MR who basically used her to fetch his drugs. Had she met a decent guy.......who knows.

It happened in our family.

A black sheep, so to speak, running around on drugs, drinking, carrying on like a fool............and then she met a guy who said if they were going to stay together..........all that had to go.

She changed overnight. They have been happily married for 30 years.

TLM is pretty hardcore now though.

I mean even Charlie Manson was a sweet little boy for some of his life.

JMO............
 
Okay thanks Ardy I will go re-read some of those tweets. There are just some I would rather not re-read and it is difficult to know when I might see one. Thanks for your input.
Like I said I do not think you made anything up just wanted confirmation this was said on the stand, not written articles etc.
I agree she did not want help but I also believe she did not know how to accept help because she was just so damn angry.
Sorry Ardy I was calling you Andy, I need me some glasses.

I had looked up and posted some of the tweets a while ago regarding her record. The part about the meds isn't included, but I do remember that from her testimony as well. Here is my previous post:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7794297&postcount=677"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7794297&postcount=677[/ame]

Hope that helps.
 
TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

She rose to the top in young offender facilities by beating people up. She took their medications from them. She was the boss of the range......and you don't get to the top by being nice.

Other inmates may not like what TLM did............but what are they going to do about it? She beat up a woman at Grand Valley prison for women for saying things about her.

TLM targets the weak and the strong.........doesn't make any difference to her................anyone who gets in her way.

Given her record........it is pretty clear to me that TLM is a really tough girl, probably physically strong, and she knows how to fight to win.

JMO

:O Do you have links to back up this information please? I never heard about some of the bolded stuff. Very interesting.

At least TLM let people know where they stood. MR didn't and it's the silent ones you have to be wary of IMHO.

Bottom line no matter what, they were both involved and both will pay the price. IMHO MR is going away for a long, long, time. Who knows, after all is said and done, we may start to get more information about his character. I'm sure someone is writing as book as we speak. Probably very close to going off to press within days of the verdict. MOO and then some.
 
So, defense closing statement delayed until Monday?? Crap! (pardon my language)

I was all set to go to the courthouse tomorrow! I'm out of town for the early part of next week, so I will rely on my fellow WS'ers to report what's what.

Don't get me wrong....all I want is a fair trial and justice for Tori.

My thoughts are with Tori's family who have shown incredible strength through this trial so far. You inspire me.
 
Rodney Stafford asked for the TRUTH.

IMO, one could also call MTR evil and sadistic, and, a coward.

What more could MR add you ask? Why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything?

Are you serious?

He allegedly kidnapped, sexually assaulted, murdered and buried Rodney's 8 year old girl.

The LEAST he could do, is offer up some truth.

If there are people here who would even question Victoria's loved ones right to that, then there isn't too much else to say, is there?

JMO

I don't think anyone would ever question the family's right to know the truth. But, in fairness, if he did stand up and tell the truth, and if it wasn't what you were expecting to hear, would you believe him?

JMO
 
Tori's mother, meanwhile, told reporters she has no idea who the woman is.

"I've been staring at it all night and I don't have a clue at all. I don't even recognize the facial features," Tara McDonald said during a news conference outside her home.

McDonald also said she's not involved in her daughter's disappearance, but hasn't got back results of a police lie detector test she took.

"I know that at the end of the day, I have had nothing to do with this," she said.

The sketch of the woman -- she was seen walking with Tori after school April 8, in images from a nearby high school security video -- was based on a witness's memory, police said.

Who that woman is has baffled police and the public, and until the sketch was released late Tuesday, had no face.

"There are individuals in the family that have beliefs about the woman in the sketch. Our beliefs have been shared with the police," Rebecca Stafford said. "For me, personally, I can't say that I was completely taken aback by the picture. But at the same time I don't know the individual well enough."

Another family member said the woman looked a lot like a high school friend of Tori's father, Rodney Stafford.

http://intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1535825

The article you linked is about the sketch that came out about 2 weeks after Tori disappeared. My post was wrt the video that was released April 9 and enhanced a couple of days later. TM called LE on Easter Sunday to say they may know who the woman in the video was.
 
Would you be comfortable next week if he moved in next door to you?
I would personally move my kids in with the grandparents while I scared him out of the nieghbourhood!

The devil you know or the devil you don't ...
 
:O Do you have links to back up this information please? I never heard about some of the bolded stuff. Very interesting.

At least TLM let people know where they stood. MR didn't and it's the silent ones you have to be wary of IMHO.

Bottom line no matter what, they were both involved and both will pay the price. IMHO MR is going away for a long, long, time. Who knows, after all is said and done, we may start to get more information about his character. I'm sure someone is writing as book as we speak. Probably very close to going off to press within days of the verdict. MOO and then some.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/22/stafford-rafferty-trial-thurs.html
 
The article you linked is about the sketch that came out about 2 weeks after Tori disappeared. My post was wrt the video that was released April 9 and enhanced a couple of days later. TM called LE on Easter Sunday to say they may know who the woman in the video was.

I don't understand. TM saw a grainy video taken at a distance, thought she knew who the woman might be, and called LE. Was it ever said that TM thought it was TLM? But then two weeks later, LE released a composite sketch (provided by a witness) of the same woman and TM hasn't the slightest clue who it could be? This sounds kind of fishy to me. One of those statements can't be true, IMO.

570376388_o.jpg

MOO
 
More interesting testimony from TLM......and an outright lie when she said she did not walk up the hill at a rapid pace with Tori following obediently.

McClintic gave short yes and no answers to Derstine's questions, some of them suggestions, about how well she knew Tori.

No, she did not know Tori had lived for a long time on the route she walked her dog. No, she did not know Tori's new home was near her own. No, she did not walk up the hill at rapid pace with Tori following obediently.

"Are you sure you did not meet Tori (before)?" Derstine asked.

"I'm positive," McClintic said.


http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/22/19535821.html

JMO..............
 
I don't understand. TM saw a grainy video taken at a distance, thought she knew who the woman might be, and called LE. Was it ever said that TM thought it was TLM? But then two weeks later, LE released a composite sketch (provided by a witness) of the same woman and TM hasn't the slightest clue who it could be? This sounds kind of fishy to me. One of those statements can't be true, IMO.

570376388_o.jpg

MOO

I am sure I read that RS got information from CM's neighbors. I always thought LE got the information on TLM from one of them.......not TM.

Was there any documentation from LE that TM called them about TLM?

JMO
 
Now that little statement with TLM denying she walked up the hill at a rapid pace with TS following obediently behind is interesting.

The last witness may not have been there just to testify about TLM going into the front door of the school...........but also to catch TLM in a lie while on the witness stand. The witness testified that TLM looked like she was on a mission and TS was happily following obediently behind.

Derstine now has 2 statements from the eyewitness that conflict with TLM's testimony and the video evidence will prove TLM is lying on at least one of them.

I wonder how Derstine got TLM to say that..........and wonder why she would try to say she wasn't walking rapidly or that TS wasn't following obediently behind.

Was it to try to hide familiarity with TS?

JMO.........
 
I am sure I read that RS got information from CM's neighbors. I always thought LE got the information on TLM from one of them.......not TM.

Was there any documentation from LE that TM called them about TLM?

JMO

What you refer to about RS getting info from TLM's neighbour is in a link here, a few posts back. As for TM, I don't remember ever hearing of any statement provided by LE themselves. All I recall is them saying that they had several tips. IIRC, it was only TM who said that she called them. Too late now for me to look for a link. Must get to bed. :)

JMO
 
I am sure I read that RS got information from CM's neighbors. I always thought LE got the information on TLM from one of them.......not TM.

Was there any documentation from LE that TM called them about TLM?

JMO

The LE testified that TM called him April 12th, however I believe I read TM received a call and then called LE ... Also a neighbor

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2012/03/20120308-123237.html

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/637399--gut-feelings-drove-neighbours


TM knew something

Ms. McDonald told Ms. Mulligan in an interview aired last evening that she has revised her belief that a stranger took her daughter, and now agrees with friends who "feel somebody who we know has taken Tori and they have no idea, they were just being mildly vindictive, and it went so far out of control so fast they have no idea what to do now."

http://www.ottawamenscentre.com/news/20090439_mother.htm
 
I'm not sure what the point of these posts is, beyond trying to vilify Tara.

Even if TLM knew who Tori was, or had seen her around, that doesn't negate that TLM took Tori and that she and MR transported that poor baby in his car to a rock pile in rural Ontario and killed her.
 
sorry I am not understanding the logic that if MR stood up and told his side that this would bring PEACE to RS and the rest.... what more could MR say that would be more horrific than what RS and others had to hear from the mouth of that evil sadistic TLM...she described how she murdered his daughter in graphic detail...the crown showed graphic detailed pictures of little Tori to the courts..RS and others were there and saw these..RS had to leave the court and more than likely throw up....knowing all of that which is about as bad as its gets didn't bring peace to RS and never will...It will haunt him to his last breath...He has some understanding of why this was done to his daughter what more could MR add...he could admit that he was involved or he could deny that he was involved...either way it will NOT bring any peace to RS.....he has heard the worst of worst and nothing MR can or would say would ever bring him peace... so why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything...will it bring anyone peace...if he says he did it some will say..."I knew that all along...mark that off...if he says he didn't some will say LIAR...but either way no peace....it will make some smug that they "got it right" onwards...but it will never bring absolute PEACE to RS or others....JMO

RS wants the truth. So IMHO if he had the truth he would be able to move forward. The only one who can provide the truth is his beloved daughter who was abducted, sexually assaulted and murdered no longer able to speak the truth. The next most reliable person is TLM and then MR. These two are the reason Tori is no longer alive. TLM has at least had some decency to come forward and confess while MR sits back smug faced and allowed Tori's loved ones to be tormented not knowing what happened to their precious child, and where Tori's body could have been found to bring her home for a bit of closure for her family.

They don't come any more evil than MR. He purposely sat on every detail about Tori's last few hours of her life instead of helping LE locate Tori. Now to me that is pure evil and sick. AND still MR continues to lie and deflect any wrong doing for Tori's fate. He has no conscience and is the true definition of a psychopathy. MR makes TLM seem normal by comparison. JMHO. Remember, TLM was the one who fessed up and helped LE to solve what MR started and finished. The destiny of Tori. If MR has nothing to hide and isn't guilty, he would have taken the stand to fight his own defense but as RS said, "MR is a coward". Plan and simple to see that for sure. MOO

MR fits all of these equations except for the juvenile delinquency which we are not privy to at this stage in the game, but the fact he admitted to at least one woman he had a troubled past at home, and the other is many short-term marital relationships. We know MR had many short term relationships with women in general. HTH. It's so fitting to MR it is scary. MOO. Funny but there are many that TLM does not fit into though. Again MOO.

The two factors

Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e. a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist"]Hare Psychopathy Checklist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
I am sure I read that RS got information from CM's neighbors. I always thought LE got the information on TLM from one of them.......not TM.

Was there any documentation from LE that TM called them about TLM?

JMO

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/03/08/stafford-trial-thurs.html

The day after Tori went missing, police released a surveillance video that was captured by cameras at a nearby high school.

The video showed Tori walking in the company of a young woman who was wearing a white jacket on the day she disappeared.

Kelly said that McDonald notified police on April 12 that she believed the woman in the video was Terri-Lynne McClintic.

Earlier this week, McDonald testified that prior to her daughter's abduction, she had met McClintic twice — when she accompanied her partner to buy OxyContin from McClintic's mother and to discuss breeding dogs.

Kelly said McDonald recognized the jacket McClintic was wearing and the way she walked.

Following up on the tip from Tori’s mother, Kelly said police found that McClintic had an outstanding warrant for breach of a probation order.

Kelly said McClintic was subsequently arrested on her outstanding warrant.

Tara recognized TLM's walk and her jacket from the video. I wouldn't be able to recognize TLM from that composite sketch. Many people thought that the sketch looked like Tara.

ETA: I was just looking at the post and realized that I should add that I pointed out that some thought that the sketch looked like Tara to illustrate further how it would be very difficult to recognize TLM from it.

Personally, I never thought Tara had anything to do with what happened to Tori, and I still don't think she had anything to do with it. JMO etc.
 
McClintic ignored the order to get help and fled to London for a time. That was the breach that landed her back in custody April 12, 2009.

So McClilntic did have ties to London.

Wonder who she stayed with and hung around.

Lots of information at this link about TLM's testimony.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/22/19535821.html

JMO

Interest tidbit from your link. So it seems she did. I must have missed something. I'm sure TLM had ties to many cities. Is it possible she had family in London? Where were her niece and nephew from? She was known to have babysat them was she not? MOO

The day seemed like the trial of McClintic, not Rafferty, and Justice Thomas Heeney had to remind jurors that questions and suggestions aren't evidence unless a witness accepts them as truth.
 
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