CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct. 2012 - #23

[otto]

Thanks, I knew it didn't make any sense at all!

<snip for space>

Thank you so much for the aerial map of the route from Jessica's house to Austin's house. What do you think about the bigger picture and would you be able to map that? That is, make the larger map with her home/school location, his home/lake location, the backpack location, the remains, his Technical School and his father house? I'm wondering if that tells a different story, but a story nonetheless.

There's also the relationship between park and Austin's house. If you added a pin for the lake, where the jogger was attacked, it makes a shallow arc; nearly a straight line.

I wonder if people like Austin spiral out in terms of distance from the house.

 

[Tennlyn]

I think that he should be institutionalized. I don't believe that there is any hope for someone like Austin to be rehabilitated. He's a monster, like Joran van der Sloot. They are both very dangerous people. They kill without any thought about the consequences to the person or others, and deal with the aftermath in the same matter of fact cold manner. Joran was dangerously short tempered, unlike Austin, who seems cold and methodical.

Prison is not a place for someone like Austin, in my opinion. I think of prison as a place where you put the bad guys for specific lengths of time, depending on the severity of their crime. There are some Brad Coopers and Jason Young, but there are also hardened criminals. Austin doesn't fit into either category. I think that he should be medicated and managed for life.

I respectfully disagree. Institutions are for people with treatable mental illnesses. I've seen no reports to indicate that this is insane. He's just a murderer and that is exactly what prison is for!

 

[human]

Redhead-ARS would be a prime candidate for sexual molestation with an absent father.

I have a relative who worked with the most crazy of sex offenders and she said that the biggest cause of them being sex offenders was emotional abuse in the family, not sex abuse. Very interesting.

 

[tlcya]

I think that he should be institutionalized. I don't believe that there is any hope for someone like Austin to be rehabilitated. He's a monster, like Joran van der Sloot. They are both very dangerous people. They kill without any thought about the consequences to the person or others, and deal with the aftermath in the same matter of fact cold manner. Joran was dangerously short tempered, unlike Austin, who seems cold and methodical.

Prison is not a place for someone like Austin, in my opinion. I think of prison as a place where you put the bad guys for specific lengths of time, depending on the severity of their crime. There are some Brad Coopers and Jason Young, but there are also hardened criminals. Austin doesn't fit into either category. I think that he should be medicated and managed for life.

I think an institution is a bad idea for one such as Sigg. Is it not so that you cannot be held in an institution once you are "well"? Who decides if you are "well"? Doctors. Doctors can be fooled.

I would be okay if Sigg was diagnosed with some mental illness that was treatable and then placed in an institution but only IF once the mental illness had been treated to maximum effect, he was then shipped directly to prison to finish out his sentence, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

MOO

 

[otto]

I respectfully disagree. Institutions are for people with treatable mental illnesses. I've seen no reports to indicate that this is insane. He's just a murderer and that is exactly what prison is for!

Every mental illness can be treated in one way or another, but I don't think that this means that mentally ill people get better. It seems to me that any 17 year old that abducts, assaults, murders and dismembers a 10 year old child must be seriously mentally deranged. Most criminals are normal people that committed a crime. There is nothing about someone like Austin that falls into the realm of "normal". He seems like someone that has a screw loose.

 

[otto]

I think an institution is a bad idea for one such as Sigg. Is it not so that you cannot be held in an institution once you are "well"? Who decides if you are "well"? Doctors. Doctors can be fooled.

I would be okay if Sigg was diagnosed with some mental illness that was treatable and then placed in an institution but only IF once the mental illness had been treated to maximum effect, he was then shipped directly to prison to finish out his sentence, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

MOO

I don't think that someone like Austin can get well, and I don't think that prison is the right environment for someone that obviously has something wrong in his head.

I think that people perceive institutional life and prison in different ways. I view prison as a form of rehabilitation and punishment. Austin can't be rehabilitated ... and how much punishment should be given to someone that has a screw loose and can never be well?

 

[Redhead72]

Redhead-ARS would be a prime candidate for sexual molestation with an absent father.

I have a relative who worked with the most crazy of sex offenders and she said that the biggest cause of them being sex offenders was emotional abuse in the family, not sex abuse. Very interesting.

Thank you for that insight. 3 of the 4 perpetrators in my daughters' case do somewhat fit that profile as well. Especially the boy they considered the 'ringleader' in the assault. He also exhibited some other disturbing problems as I came to find out through the courts - prior fire-setting, school trouble, etc... And his mother was in total denial. He had a step-father in the home, but these problems were there before he entered the picture, IIRC the time frames.

The 2 youngest also had a step-father in the picture, but their father - although they saw him pretty often, I don't know what their relationship was really like. I could go into more detail, but these two were way too young to be responsible for their actions, and were heavily influenced by the older boys.

The only child that did not fit the profile also had problems that resulted in him being home-schooled, but I'm not sure what they were. (I home-school myself, so I'm not disparaging H-S'ing families - just in this case there were reasons other than educational, religious, or otherwise). I will say one thing. This child in particular had a conscience, and a lot of remorse once he began to mature a bit more. Remorse enough to the point that there had been a minor* molestation of my older daughter by him that no-one knew about. My older daughter had been keeping it a secret. He actually went to police under his own volition (with his parents) and confessed to the incident, thus bringing it to our attention. Although he was older, he was somewhat immature for his age when these things happened, and I have faith that he - who complied with counseling, and all of the court's demands in the other instance - actually had a chance of being rehabilitated. (All of the children were under the age of 12 when it occurred, and "on schedule" when his mind began to mature his understanding did as well. A totally different response than the other child who never showed remorse, or tears, or anything... (I have no belief that the other child was rehabilitated because his parents never showed up to any of the civil case arguments, and didn't even attempt to defend their son at all - which ended up in a default summary judgement for us.)

Anyway, like I said, thanks for the insight. As a survivor myself of familial abuse, and the mother of two survivors I know that not all abused kids end up being abusers. Most of us know how horrible it is, and would never even dream of hurting someone else. So, if an absent father or emotionally abusive one is a major factor that definitely makes sense to me.

* - Please understand no sexual abuse, molestation or assault is ever "minor" to the victim. However, legally and in comparison to the other event it was very different, and the fact that he came forward with it at all when it likely would have gone forever unknown was actually rather surprising to all of us involved (lawyer, police, counselors, etc...). It gave us hope in his ability to be rehabilitated.

 

[Redhead72]

Every mental illness can be treated in one way or another, but I don't think that this means that mentally ill people get better. It seems to me that any 17 year old that abducts, assaults, murders and dismembers a 10 year old child must be seriously mentally deranged. Most criminals are normal people that committed a crime. There is nothing about someone like Austin that falls into the realm of "normal". He seems like someone that has a screw loose.

I agree with everything you have said here. IMO, he is a sociopath that really could never be trusted in society ever. And, yes, he obviously has severe mental illness, even if he is "highly functioning" as they say. We, in society, are *lucky* (if you can call it that) that he was not very good at what he did. Otherwise, we most definitely would be searching for a serial killer at some point. I think that's pretty obvious as the one girl stated she saw him outside their house just staring at it a couple days after he did this to JR.

Here's the thing though... When deciding where he belongs - prison or an institution, I fall on the side of prison. In a mental illness institution I believe the other patients would be at too much risk. I understand there are secure facilities he can be placed in, but I don't think that's secure enough.

I have a friend who works as a prison psychiatrist, and it's not like he cannot get mental health treatment in prison. And, obviously the men he would be in prison with are not going to be threatened by him. I'm sure we all know what is likely to happen to him in the general population even after he turns 18 (see Dahmer's end). And so, they will most likely hold him in isolation for the rest of his life. I have a hard time feeling sorry about that. He's just too dangerous to be in anything but a maximum security prison, he's too dangerous to have access to others who are mentally ill.

If we were speaking about someone who was suffering from a psychoses or something when the crime was committed, or was still in a psychotic state, it may be a different story, but even then I would still have concerns about his ability to have access to others who are mentally ill in an institutional setting.

In my non-expert opinion he is not "criminally insane". He is a criminal. He does have mental issues (obviously). But, he is capable of understanding exactly what he did. He has understanding that what he did was wrong. He is of a maturity level and intelligence level that these were calculated actions - not the result of psychoses, or otherwise. As such, I believe he should remain behind bars for the rest of his life - at the least. And, I do believe the death penalty should be considered in his case, but I understand why some will freak out at my saying that as that's such a hot-button issue itself... :truce:

 

[otto]

http://www.robertdylan.com/Understanding_Juvenile_Sex_Offenders.pdf; pgs: 1, 2

 

[Redhead72]

Thank you so much for the aerial map of the route from Jessica's house to Austin's house. What do you think about the bigger picture and would you be able to map that? That is, make the larger map with her home/school location, his home/lake location, the backpack location, the remains, his Technical School and his father house? I'm wondering if that tells a different story, but a story nonetheless.

There's also the relationship between park and Austin's house. If you added a pin for the lake, where the jogger was attacked, it makes a shallow arc; nearly a straight line.

I wonder if people like Austin spiral out in terms of distance from the house.

I understand what you're getting at. However, if the map were to be enlarged enough to include the place where they found the backpack, as well as her remains, and the college he attended, you would lose the pins for JR's home, the reservoir, the park, and AS's home w/mom... as they would blur into one. (I don't know where his father's house is as I'm still catching up on things). As for the college - do we know which campus the mortuary sciences department holds their classes? There is a possibility he attended classes as more than one of the campuses - at least for some of the general studies classes he would have been enrolled in. (Apologies if this has already been discussed.)

Honestly, when I look at where he dumped her remains, I'm seeing that he was frightened and didn't go through with his original plan which was likely to separate the remains. I really don't know why he didn't keep going a bit further into the foothills. Maybe fear? Not enough time? Perhaps a sub-conscious desire to be caught? A lot of what I'm reading doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but then I'm sane and rational (I think! ), and obviously not in a position to understand what he was thinking! :dunno:

I have a few theories as to his actions that day she was taken, and the days immediately afterward - some possible answers to questions posed back before the arrest was even made, but I'm not going to take up space here fleshing them out because I've yet to read through quite a few threads here.

 

[KaaBoom]

I understand what you're getting at. However, if the map were to be enlarged enough to include the place where they found the backpack, as well as her remains, and the college he attended, you would lose the pins for JR's home, the reservoir, the park, and AS's home w/mom... as they would blur into one. (I don't know where his father's house is as I'm still catching up on things).

I believe his father's house is in Parker, about 40 miles southeast of AS's home.

As for the college - do we know which campus the mortuary sciences department holds their classes? There is a possibility he attended classes as more than one of the campuses - at least for some of the general studies classes he would have been enrolled in. (Apologies if this has already been discussed.)

I don't know if it has been discussed, or not either. But according to the ACC class schedule, this is where the class would take place. About 25 miles south of his home.

Annex east of Littleton Campus Main Building Room AA 1210
5900 S. Santa Fe Dr., Littleton

http://www.arapahoe.edu/sites/default/files/shared/images-pdf/spring-2013-schedule.pdf

Honestly, when I look at where he dumped her remains, I'm seeing that he was frightened and didn't go through with his original plan which was likely to separate the remains. I really don't know why he didn't keep going a bit further into the foothills. Maybe fear? Not enough time? Perhaps a sub-conscious desire to be caught?

I think time would be a good bet. He was driving his family's car. The location was only seven and a half miles from his home. He could have driven there and been back in a half an hour. Plus the area was sufficiently isolated enough for him not to get caught. Nothing but ruins of old abandoned coal mining buildings on both sides of the road for miles. No one to see him, and he could have seen any cars coming down the road for miles. Take a look at Google Street View to see how truly isolated the area is.

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39.846787,-105.209377&spn=0.000441,0.0006&t=h&layer=c&cbll=39.846787,-105.209377&panoid=ayrfBffuqTac37_kUyUF0g&cbp=12,37.03,,0,0&z=21"]http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39.846787,-105.209377&spn=0.000441,0.0006&t=h&layer=c&cbll=39.846787,-105.209377&panoid=ayrfBffuqTac37_kUyUF0g&cbp=12,37.03,,0,0&z=21[/ame]

 

[enzeder]

I tried to fit all of the relevant locations into one map and you're right, I did lose all the pins for Jessica's home, ARS home etc. ARS was a student at the Arapahoe Community College, Littleton campus, and it was Warren Tech North campus at Arvada that he attended. ARS father's home is at N Sunbeam Trail, Parker.

 

[i8mypaint]

I agree with everything you have said here. IMO, he is a sociopath that really could never be trusted in society ever. And, yes, he obviously has severe mental illness, even if he is "highly functioning" as they say. We, in society, are *lucky* (if you can call it that) that he was not very good at what he did. Otherwise, we most definitely would be searching for a serial killer at some point. I think that's pretty obvious as the one girl stated she saw him outside their house just staring at it a couple days after he did this to JR.

Here's the thing though... When deciding where he belongs - prison or an institution, I fall on the side of prison. In a mental illness institution I believe the other patients would be at too much risk. I understand there are secure facilities he can be placed in, but I don't think that's secure enough.

I have a friend who works as a prison psychiatrist, and it's not like he cannot get mental health treatment in prison. And, obviously the men he would be in prison with are not going to be threatened by him. I'm sure we all know what is likely to happen to him in the general population even after he turns 18 (see Dahmer's end). And so, they will most likely hold him in isolation for the rest of his life. I have a hard time feeling sorry about that. He's just too dangerous to be in anything but a maximum security prison, he's too dangerous to have access to others who are mentally ill.

If we were speaking about someone who was suffering from a psychoses or something when the crime was committed, or was still in a psychotic state, it may be a different story, but even then I would still have concerns about his ability to have access to others who are mentally ill in an institutional setting.

In my non-expert opinion he is not "criminally insane". He is a criminal. He does have mental issues (obviously). But, he is capable of understanding exactly what he did. He has understanding that what he did was wrong. He is of a maturity level and intelligence level that these were calculated actions - not the result of psychoses, or otherwise. As such, I believe he should remain behind bars for the rest of his life - at the least. And, I do believe the death penalty should be considered in his case, but I understand why some will freak out at my saying that as that's such a hot-button issue itself... :truce:

Wow. Well said.

 

[Redhead72]

Thanks for the information about his father's home, and the campus location.

I'm very familiar with that area as we spent much of our time going into the foothills/mountains, and going over to 93 was the easiest/fastest way to get most places and routes we frequented. We liked driving "backroads" and old roads when we weren't hiking. I imagine, if he liked isolated places, he may have been very familiar with the area she was found, too... I knew exactly where they were describing when I heard the news that she was found.

In the nighttime, especially in front of the foothills, it is too dark to see anything - especially in a depression like where the fence was. I'm truly surprised that he didn't take more time to hide her better, but if he was already planning to drive up to Superior, then he may have had a certain time window to stay within. IIRC, you wrote above that the location they found her was 30 mins. from his home w/mom? I think it takes less time to get there if you take the road directly west out of the neighborhood (Simms, I believe?).

CORRECTION: I see now that you said there and back in 30 mins. Sorry about that.

Thanks Enzeder for putting the map up anyway with those points marked. The "map" in my head goes more due south for where Parker is in relation to Westminster, and I always forget the foothills start "bending" out there a bit. I can use that, and a focused map of the neighborhood to put together an insert map, so I'll do that. It shouldn't take too long. Then everyone can see all of the points in one shot, so to speak.

And thank you for the compliment i8mypaint. I love your screen-name, btw.

UPDATE: I'm having problems with my graphics software, so I don't know if I'll be able to do the map - at least for now...

PS - most of those abandoned shafts are small goldmines, not coal - I'm near positive about that. Not much has changed in that particular part of the area in a VERY long time. It's like a section development forgot about or something - of course near Rocky Flats I don't think you can develop that land, hence, the wildlife preserve (old weapons factory land with nuclear waste, IIRC).

 

[i8mypaint]

I think that he should be institutionalized. I don't believe that there is any hope for someone like Austin to be rehabilitated. He's a monster, like Joran van der Sloot. They are both very dangerous people. They kill without any thought about the consequences to the person or others, and deal with the aftermath in the same matter of fact cold manner. Joran was dangerously short tempered, unlike Austin, who seems cold and methodical.

Prison is not a place for someone like Austin, in my opinion. I think of prison as a place where you put the bad guys for specific lengths of time, depending on the severity of their crime. There are some Brad Coopers and Jason Young, but there are also hardened criminals. Austin doesn't fit into either category. I think that he should be medicated and managed for life.

I respectfully disagree. I hold you in high regards... Especially through this case I think that he committed an adult crime and he needs to be charged to the full extent of the law. My hope is he never see the outside world again. I also realize that I have a kid JR's age so I may be emotionally more inclined toward this. Austin acted in a way to me was not of someone who is mentally disabled, if he wasn't caught he would have done more, bigger things. As I impatiently await the outcome of this trial I cannot help but to go back to the fact he took a child's life, and he hid that, and when LE came to close he tried to throw them off. Probably the only fortunate thing in this case was the fact that he had no experience. I believe because at 17 you decide to kidnap, rape, kill and dismember a CHILD before you turned 18, you get it it easier. 3 months before you turn 18. I am sorry for the rant. I guess I am so emotionally invested for many reasons, my kid is that age, I grew up there, etc... Thank you for listening if you do

 

[i8mypaint]

Crap, should have said I DO NOT believe because ........ So on and so forth. I can't write it again

 

[i8mypaint]

@redhead 72
I commend your openness and also your privacy. I'm glad to see you, your input helps, and maybe in return we can help you. And if I got the # wrong I apologize. It's late, I'm sick, need to take some NyQuil and go to bed.

 

[enzeder]

Backpack found cnr of Andrew Way and Alpha Ct Superior Co.

 

[margarita25]

Hi guys. I took some photos in the neighborhood 2 days before Sigg was arrested. I would like to post them, but I need to upload them online somewhere so I can link to the url. Does anyone have any recommendations on image hosting? Thanks.

 

[enzeder]

Hi guys. I took some photos in the neighborhood 2 days before Sigg was arrested. I would like to post them, but I need to upload them online somewhere so I can link to the url. Does anyone have any recommendations on image hosting? Thanks.

This is what I use. http://tinypic.com/

I use the "IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards" but it's up to you.