Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #9

[cityslick]

JMO, I think if we knew everything there is to know about AL and why he did what he did we might find that there is not any one thing to blame, there are a lot of things in combination to blame, some perhaps more obvious than others. Obviously guns gave him the means to inflict maximum suffering on a large number of people and if he hadn't had access to guns he might not have been able to kill as many people but access to guns probably wasn't what made him want to kill in the first place. Maybe videogames weren't either but it may have been a factor in what kind of attitude he had to violence. There are some scientific findings that indicate that exposure to violent games and television/ film violence may e.g. increase hostile expectations and desensitize us so that our brain responses to violent stimuli change.

And yet I can point to just as many, if not more studies that cannot find conclusive evidence that violent games (or any games for that matter) is linked to violent tendencies in RL. There is a reason why the Supreme Court continually strikes down these lawsuits wanting to ban violent games, because no one can come up with proof that they are harmful, just like you can prove that an R rated movie is harmful. everthing should be done in moderation, but that's not limited to video games.

I've been playing games, violent or otherwise, for the better part of 20 years. I'm in my 30's now. I think I turned out ok. I'm not a violent person, I'm not even a gun owner. There are millions of people exactly like me, in fact, older than me. I think many people would be surprised how many people who are not a teenager play video games. Like for example, is it known that the average age of a gamer is 28?

If your a parent, it should be on you what your child does and doesn't do. I know some parents who have no issue having their kid play Call of Duty or Battlefield or whatever. I know others that don't let their kid play those type of games. I am fine with both sets of parents. Because it's their child and they know what's best for them.

 

[sleuther317]

Have we heard anything from the janitor? It's been two weeks now, just curious...

 

[brighidin]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/connecticut-shooter-adam-lanza/story?id=17975673#.UMvaN0bDVSI

A Sig Sauer handgun and a Glock handgun were used in the slayings and .223 shell casings – a round used in a semi-automatic military-style rifle -- were also found at the scene. Nancy Lanza had numerous weapons registered to her, including a Glock and a Sig Sauer. She also owned a Bushmaster rifle -- a semi-automatic carbine chambered for a .223 caliber round. However, federal authorities cannot confirm that the handguns or the rifle were the weapons recovered at the school.

bbm

Old article. The ME stated that it was the bushmaster. Other articles have stated AL killed himself with one of the handguns.

<modsnip>

School shooting survivor tells her story

The school's intercom was on, and Thornberg next heard "more shots, screaming, crying and whimpering." She heard the janitor yell at the gunman, "'Put the gun down! Put the gun down.'"

...

Thornberg says police arrived at the school and, unaware of who was doing the shooting, apprehended the janitor and another man outside the school.

...

I wish someone would find this janitor! How did he manage to survive? It seems he is the only person that came face to face with AL, confronted him, and was not shot at. Did AL miss or just not shoot at all? :waitasec:

Is the janitor missing? Why does he need to be found? Or, do you mean you wish someone from the media would interview him. I don't think that is going to happen - IMO he is the key witness for investigators and I bet it has been strongly suggested that he not give an interview. Who is to say he even wants to?

 

[wfgodot]

o/t a bit, but the UT-Austin clock tower shootings by Charles Whitman in 1966 have been mentioned on a couple of the other Newtown threads:

Officer who stopped 1966 UT sniper rampage dies (AP)

 

[Donjeta]

And yet I can point to just as many, if not more studies that cannot find conclusive evidence that violent games (or any games for that matter) is linked to violent tendencies in RL. There is a reason why the Supreme Court continually strikes down these lawsuits wanting to ban violent games, because no one can come up with proof that they are harmful, just like you can prove that an R rated movie is harmful. everthing should be done in moderation, but that's not limited to video games.

I've been playing games, violent or otherwise, for the better part of 20 years. I'm in my 30's now. I think I turned out ok. I'm not a violent person, I'm not even a gun owner. There are millions of people exactly like me, in fact, older than me. I think many people would be surprised how many people who are not a teenager play video games. Like for example, is it known that the average age of a gamer is 28?

If your a parent, it should be on you what your child does and doesn't do. I know some parents who have no issue having their kid play Call of Duty or Battlefield or whatever. I know others that don't let their kid play those type of games. I am fine with both sets of parents. Because it's their child and they know what's best for them.

Well, I don't know about that... I think parents quite frequently don't know what's best for their children or they know but do something else anyway because it's easier or whatever.

I don't think the Supreme Court will ever come up with a study that conclusively proves that violent games will make everyone more violent because it just doesn't work that way. (IMO). Like you said, lots of people play and most of them don't act on their aggressive impulses, if any. There is a threshold for aggressive behavior that is normally so high that if the video games lower the threshold slightly it doesn't matter in practice because it's still too high for people who have a normal impulse control, normal emotional responses, a good upbringing, firm religious or moral values, a protective social support network, a family, a job, a self esteem and other things to lose. Even if the threshold is lowered a little because of the habituation to violence that the neural networks experience a little it's still too high for these people to act on it.

But for some individuals who may have a lower threshold for aggression and a worse impulse control to begin with and fewer protective factors all along the slight lowering of the aggression threshold may be enough to push them over the edge. Statistically they are few and far between so it's very hard to prove a correlational link because they're lost in the sea of gamers who don't react this way.

Anyway, this is how it makes sense to me. It is a pretty well documented phenomenon that repeated exposure to emotional stimuli can mediate the neural response to them.

But there probably are a number of gamers who were protected from aggressive behavior by their gaming obsession because they stayed at home on Saturday night to play games when their friends went out, got drunk and got into a fight that night, so maybe it evens out statistically.

 

[MyBelle]

Obviously he wasn't quite all right, but we are second guessing now with the benefit of hindsight. There is nothing definitive to say that the diagnoses and treatments he got, if any, weren't appropriate at the time with the information that the diagnostician had. If he had a psychotic break lately I am not certain that different educational choices when he was younger would have prevented that.

BBM. His victims didn't have a choice. Their killer was far beyond "quite all right." The end result proves whatever treatment he received was not appropriate. I don't believe any professional will recommend guns, ammo and annihilating video games to soothe a disturbed mind.

I think the families of at least 26 of the victims and any other parents who share their horror truly believe this man's condition was extremely abnormal, had been for a very long time and this tragedy could have been prevented. It doesn't require "hindsight" to understand that allowing a deeply disturbed person to live in his own fantasy world focused on weapons and violent video games is going to achieve anything other than horrific end result.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

And yet I can point to just as many, if not more studies that cannot find conclusive evidence that violent games (or any games for that matter) is linked to violent tendencies in RL. There is a reason why the Supreme Court continually strikes down these lawsuits wanting to ban violent games, because no one can come up with proof that they are harmful, just like you can prove that an R rated movie is harmful. everthing should be done in moderation, but that's not limited to video games.

I've been playing games, violent or otherwise, for the better part of 20 years. I'm in my 30's now. I think I turned out ok. I'm not a violent person, I'm not even a gun owner. There are millions of people exactly like me, in fact, older than me. I think many people would be surprised how many people who are not a teenager play video games. Like for example, is it known that the average age of a gamer is 28?

If your a parent, it should be on you what your child does and doesn't do. I know some parents who have no issue having their kid play Call of Duty or Battlefield or whatever. I know others that don't let their kid play those type of games. I am fine with both sets of parents. Because it's their child and they know what's best for them.

BBM. Unfortunately, we are seeing repeatedly that parents do not always know or act in the best interest of their children and the government has to intervene.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

BBM. His victims didn't have a choice. Their killer was far beyond "quite all right." The end result proves whatever treatment he received was not appropriate. I don't believe any professional will recommend guns, ammo and annihilating video games to soothe a disturbed mind.

I think the families of at least 26 of the victims and any other parents who share their horror truly believe this man's condition was extremely abnormal, had been for a very long time and this tragedy could have been prevented. It doesn't require "hindsight" to understand that allowing a deeply disturbed person to live in his own fantasy world focused on weapons and violent video games is going to achieve anything other than horrific end result.

JMO

I don't think I ever said the victims had a choice or that it's a good thing to live in a violent fantasy world


However, you said that if he had been properly diagnosed years ago instead of changing schools and being homeschooled the tragedy could have prevented.

No, my premise is that if AL had been properly diagnosed years ago instead of being shuttled about to various schools and then home schooled, this disaster may have been averted. The guy was seriously mentally ill and it didn't just happen overnight.

JMO

There is no evidence that I'm aware of that he was living in a violence filled fantasy world years ago, at the time those decisions about his education were made. By most accounts he was a quiet, awkward student when he was younger and people thought he was more likely to be a victim of bullying instead of an aggressive offender.

It's okay to blame people for false diagnoses and wrong treatment decisions but I think it should mostly be done if we know for a fact what the diagnoses and the treatment decisions were and if they were wrong in the light of the information that was available at the time. I don't think it's quite fair to blame people for not being clairvoyant and not foreseeing events that will take place ten years from now or so. The sad fact is, imo, that no psychiatrists and no commonly available treatments are ever going to be able to prevent all the bad outcomes in all the cases. We don't even have the evidence that homeschooling and changes of schools were the cause of this tragedy. Many people have changed schools and been homeschooled and never killed anyone. If he was pulled out of school because they recommended treatment that the parents wouldn't let him have it would be bad, obviously, but who knows, sometimes homeschooling is really an euphemism for "the psychiatric treatments take up so much time he can't go to school"

I doubt that playing video games obsessively was a treatment decision. It probably was just something that he chose to do.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't think I ever said the victims had a choice or that it's a good thing to live in a violent fantasy world


However, you said that if he had been properly diagnosed years ago instead of changing schools and being homeschooled the tragedy could have prevented.



There is no evidence that I'm aware of that he was living in a violence filled fantasy world years ago, at the time those decisions about his education were made. By most accounts he was a quiet, awkward student when he was younger and people thought he was more likely to be a victim of bullying instead of an aggressive offender.

It's okay to blame people for false diagnoses and wrong treatment decisions but I think it should mostly be done if we know for a fact what the diagnoses and the treatment decisions were and if they were wrong in the light of the information that was available at the time. I don't think it's quite fair to blame people for not being clairvoyant and not foreseeing events that will take place ten years from now or so. The sad fact is, imo, that no psychiatrists and no commonly available treatments are ever going to be able to prevent all the bad outcomes in all the cases. We don't even have the evidence that homeschooling and changes of schools were the cause of this tragedy. Many people have changed schools and been homeschooled and never killed anyone. If he was pulled out of school because they recommended treatment that the parents wouldn't let him have it would be bad, obviously, but who knows, sometimes homeschooling is really an euphemism for "the psychiatric treatments take up so much time he can't go to school"

I doubt that playing video games obsessively was a treatment decision. It probably was just something that he chose to do.

BBM. There was evidence YEARS AGO that the child was mentally disturbed far beyond "awkward." Normal children do feel pain and do not require staff to prevent them from injuring themselves. Mentally disturbed children are vulnerable and not capable of making choices in their best interest whether it be violent video games or diving into the deep end of a pool. Most parents I know who want to teach their children "responsibility" start with small chores and graduate to pets, not artillary. There have been too many cases of children being pulled out of school by parents who want to avoid intervention. I believe this will be true in this case.

There is ample evidence that mentally disturbed children left untreated are likely to grow even more unstable as adults.

The aunt of Connecticut shooter Adam Lanza said the shooter's mother pulled him out of Newtown's public school system because she was unhappy with the school district's plans for her son.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/adam-lanzas-mom-pulled-school-relative/story?id=17985433


JMO

 

[Marina2]

BBM. There was evidence YEARS AGO that the child was mentally disturbed far beyond "awkward." Normal children do feel pain and do not require staff to prevent them from injuring themselves. Mentally disturbed children are vulnerable and not capable of making choices in their best interest whether it be violent video games or diving into the deep end of a pool. Most parents I know who want to teach their children "responsibility" start with small chores and graduate to pets, not artillary. There have been too many cases of children being pulled out of school by parents who want to avoid intervention. I believe this will be true in this case.

There is ample evidence that mentally disturbed children left untreated are likely to grow even more unstable as adults. 20 small children weren't just killed, they were emotionally and physically annihilated. I think it is only hindsight to those with heads buried in sand.

JMO

Personality disorders are notoriously hard, if not impossible to treat. I don't think he had any type of psychosis, just a deep-seated feeling of privilege along with a severe personality disorder which took his lifetime to develop. Probably a spoiled, narcissistic brat who thought he was losing control of all he felt entitled to. All the treatment in the world won't change a psychopath. IMO, he was a psychopathic, grown man intent on killing as many people as he could. This was not a psychotic break. He planned this for a long while and would have resorted to any means possible to carry out his mission. He chose the school because he could cause the most destruction and shock value there. No hidden reason for it, just massive damage. It's unfair to blame guns, video games, or his parents. Sometimes you just can't predict these things happening.

ETA: Having a congenital insensitivity to pain is not evidence of mental disturbance. I don't know of any evidence that AL was mentally disturbed as a child.

 

[cityslick]

BBM. There was evidence YEARS AGO that the child was mentally disturbed far beyond "awkward." Normal children do feel pain and do not require staff to prevent them from injuring themselves. Mentally disturbed children are vulnerable and not capable of making choices in their best interest whether it be violent video games or diving into the deep end of a pool. Most parents I know who want to teach their children "responsibility" start with small chores and graduate to pets, not artillary. There have been too many cases of children being pulled out of school by parents who want to avoid intervention. I believe this will be true in this case.

There is ample evidence that mentally disturbed children left untreated are likely to grow even more unstable as adults. 20 small children weren't just killed, they were emotionally and physically annihilated. I think it is only hindsight to those with heads buried in sand.



JMO

What about those they are not mentally disturbed that we know of, like the Oregon mall shooter? I think those two folks who were killed that night might have a different take on what it takes for someone to open fire in a crowd, I do not think it's limited to being mentally disturbed. You say 'mentally disturbed' children are vulnerable, why limit it to mentally disturbed. All children need guidance. That's what parents are for, to provide guidance.

I think it's a facetious argument to scapegoat something like video games but yet those same people making that argument have no qualm with a 13 year old having a facebook account or even a smartphone, where they can exposed to more harmful things than any video game could provide.

Disclaimers/ratings/etc are displayed on all these forms of media. Who's fault is it if the one buying the box for the child doesn't read them?

 

[MyBelle]

Personality disorders are notoriously hard, if not impossible to treat. I don't think he had any type of psychosis, just a deep-seated feeling of privilege along with a severe personality disorder which took his lifetime to develop. Probably a spoiled, narcissistic brat who thought he was losing control of all he felt entitled to. All the treatment in the world won't change a psychopath. IMO, he was a psychopathic, grown man intent on killing as many people as he could. This was not a psychotic break. He planned this for a long while and would have resorted to any means possible to carry out his mission. He chose the school because he could cause the most destruction and shock value there. No hidden reason for it, just massive damage. It's unfair to blame guns, video games, or his parents. Sometimes you just can't predict these things happening.

I disagree that "these things" can't be prevented or predicted. I also disagree with your conclusion no treatment was possible. Institutionalization is a form of treatment that protects the public.

Why is it unfair to blame the elements that helped shape the monster? The slaughter of 26 innocents was certainly unfair.

JMO

 

[cityslick]

I disagree that "these things" can't be prevented or predicted. I also disagree with your conclusion no treatment was possible. Institutionalization is a form of treatment that protects the public.

Why is it unfair to blame the elements that helped shape the monster? The slaughter of 26 innocents was certainly unfair.

JMO

That's pretty extreme, at what point do you 'institutionalize' a mentally challenged person? Especially one that never shows any violent tendencies?

 

[Marina2]

I disagree that "these things" can't be prevented or predicted. I also disagree with your conclusion no treatment was possible. Institutionalization is a form of treatment that protects the public.

Why is it unfair to blame the elements that helped shape the monster? The slaughter of 26 innocents was certainly unfair.

JMO

Are you suggesting that AL should have been institutionalized as a child? Maybe he should have undergone a lobotomy while they were at it.

Psychologists and psychiatrists agree that personality disorders are near impossible to treat. FBI profilers who study these mass murderers agree that it is hard to predict or fortell who will commit mass murder.

How do you know what elements shaped AL's mind?

Yes, the slaughter of 27 innocents is unfair.

 

[jjenny]

I think it's pretty clear his mother noticed early on he had issues.
But yet she purchased lethal weapons and reportedly kept them in a basement. And she reportedly took her son to gun ranges to teach him how to use these weapons. If she wanted to teach him responsibility, she should have stuck to some other, more harmless hobby.
Also, living in the basement that reportedly had no windows and eating only vegan food means that he likely had vitamin B12 deficiency.
His weight was reportedly very low.
If you ask me, his parents should have tried the intervention long time ago.

 

[MyBelle]

What about those they are not mentally disturbed that we know of, like the Oregon mall shooter? I think those two folks who were killed that night might have a different take on what it takes for someone to open fire in a crowd, I do not think it's limited to being mentally disturbed. You say 'mentally disturbed' children are vulnerable, why limit it to mentally disturbed. All children need guidance. That's what parents are for, to provide guidance.

I think it's a facetious argument to scapegoat something like video games but yet those same people making that argument have no qualm with a 13 year old having a facebook account or even a smartphone, where they can exposed to more harmful things than any video game could provide.

Disclaimers/ratings/etc are displayed on all these forms of media. Who's fault is it if the one buying the box for the child doesn't read them?

My comments are about this specific case. The killer did have mental health issues and he was an adult. People who buy something despite it having a warning label are people who simply don't care and society does have a right to be protected from such callous indifference.

There are some forms of media in the U.S. that are regulated by the FCC and I believe there will be a push to expand it to include cable television, movies and video games.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

I disagree that "these things" can't be prevented or predicted. I also disagree with your conclusion no treatment was possible. Institutionalization is a form of treatment that protects the public.

Why is it unfair to blame the elements that helped shape the monster? The slaughter of 26 innocents was certainly unfair.

JMO

So what do yo suggest? Should we institutionalize every teenager who plays a lot of video games or what?

 

[Abby Normal Again]

Do we have a legit source telling us which guns were used where? I tried searching, I'm finding a lot of different information about what guns he had access to and what guns he used.

eta- where did AR15's come into discussion? Did they at all?

 

[jjenny]

Do we have a legit source telling us which guns were used where? I tried searching, I'm finding a lot of different information about what guns he had access to and what guns he used.

eta- where did AR15's come into discussion? Did they at all?

Bushmaster was used to kill students and teachers.

"Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range to kill children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday."

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/conne...a-mothers-guns/story?id=17984499#.UN3dr6wkS4o

 

[MyBelle]

Are you suggesting that AL should have been institutionalized as a child? Maybe he should have undergone a lobotomy while they were at it.

Psychologists and psychiatrists agree that personality disorders are near impossible to treat. FBI profilers who study these mass murderers agree that it is hard to predict or fortell who will commit mass murder.

How do you know what elements shaped AL's mind?

Yes, the slaughter of 27 innocents is unfair.

Where do you get that AL had a personality disorder? And where have psychologists or psychiatrists said he was impossible to treat?

I'm saying AL should have been under the care of a medical professional as a child.

I linked an article that quoted family as saying his mother withdrew him from school and "battled" the school before withdrawing him from school.

His target for annihilation was a school.

I think if lobotomy was the prescribed "treatment" by the medical professionals providing oversight to his care--rather than a steady diet of guns, solitude and violent games--we'd have 26 innocents still with us.

JMO