CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

[OCSlacker]

There is other graffiti on the roof, which suggests that is it a hangout for some people that know how to go up there.

In this picture, graffiti on the tank, the box on the bottom, and the door.

Just noticed that the door looks tagged too. All around the exit sign. Thought I could make out the word zone but can't really make out anything clearly from the pic. I know they said it was alarmed and locked but it looks like a regular push bar exit to me. No alarm on the handle that I can see and no alarm sensor at the top of the door. I only noticed because last week I was wondering around the Queen Mary ship in Long Beach and went to a bunch of areas I shouldn't have been. Some doors had alarm sensors on the handle & others at the top of the door. Oh and by the way, I went through all of them and nothing was set off. So with older buildings I find they are usually not set if they are there. In the Cecil I would be shocked if the maintenance people cared that people go out there to smoke or hang out. It just doesn't strike me as a "hard on the rules" type place

 

[ceefry23]

So if she was indeed found naked isn't that nearly always a sign of a sexual crime? I suppose she could have removed her clothes and jumped in, but where are the clothes?

This just would be the strangest suicide ever. She is on a roof where she could just jump off but she decides to climb into a water tank? I am just not buying it.

She was either led to the roof or was forced up there (or already dead). I am still sticking to that theory.

Jumping in to the tank to commit suicide makes 0 sense. Youre right she could choose many other methods and would if that was her goal. She got in to that tank to make whatever was happening to her stop happening to her. For safety. There is also the possibility that the perp killed her on the roof. To me that seem unlikely because IMO he would have just left her on the roof and left. He had a reason to put her in the tank... Alive or Dead and that reason was to either absorb evidence or give him time to get away.

I dont believe she was led or forced at all. It was a choice IMO, a bad choice.

 

[DrSlooth]

If this is the case, then how did the search dogs miss her scent? I think the body was moved to the tank in an effort to hide it, and I don't think she ever made it to the roof alive in the first place.

Have the search dogs been verified on the roof?

 

[xlittlewingx]

I fear we will soon hear that cause of death is drowning, manner of death undetermined, and that few, if any, will be satisfied. And then some months from now, tox results will come back and still probably not really clarify matters much.

I have to agree, and I don't think there is any conspiracy here. Just a sick person doing sick things, which is far too often the case. The things people are capable of and capable of getting away with are all too shocking. Very sad, of course.

 

[gitana1]

Also dont forget this about the lid of the tank. This is drinking water. It has a lid to keep out rain and other contaminants. As far as ive read its pretty important for these tanks to be very well sealed. They did a test on this and determined everything was ok right? To me that signifies that the lid was on. Sealed. If the lid was off for three weeks Im sure that is enough time for bacteria to develop in there. (assuming she was in there for 3 weeks - but IMO the body bag they show in a pic looks like a pretty bloated body IMO IMO IMO)

Which then I ask how much oxygen would there have been in this tank if it was sealed? Could she have suffocated?

What did the tests they did on the water look for?? Common contagions found in drinking water? Just body contamination? What was it that they deemed ok??

What im getting at is how do we know that the water was tested for say TB? I use tb just as a loose example not knowing much about airborne or waterborne etc diseases. But how thorough was this test?? I mean it cant be possible to do an "Everything in one test?" am I right?

I read somewhere that the hotel water was safe for drinking despite housing a dead body, because it is chlorinated. That should help prevent bacteria if the lids were left open.

TB is an airborne illness. Not water borne, to my knowledge. I'm betting they tested for known water-borne pathogens. I don;t know what those are though.

If this is the case, then how did the search dogs miss her scent? I think the body was moved to the tank in an effort to hide it, and I don't think she ever made it to the roof alive in the first place.

Sometimes the dogs make mistakes. Or maybe they did track her but didn;t find her because no one thought to look in the tanks?

I fear we will soon hear that cause of death is drowning, manner of death undetermined, and that few, if any, will be satisfied. And then some months from now, tox results will come back and still probably not really clarify matters much.

I think you're right.

 

[ceefry23]

If this is the case, then how did the search dogs miss her scent? I think the body was moved to the tank in an effort to hide it, and I don't think she ever made it to the roof alive in the first place.

The dogs missed her because she was already in the tank. Lid Closed. The water threw off the scent I bet.

If she didnt make it to the roof alive, then what was she doing on the 14th or 15th floor? Thats awefully close to the roof to find it unfathomable that she had previously or even after made it to the roof alive.

 

[xlittlewingx]

The dogs missed her because she was already in the tank. Lid Closed. The water threw off the scent I bet.

If she didnt make it to the roof alive, then what was she doing on the 14th or 15th floor? Thats awefully close to the roof to find it unfathomable that she had previously or even after made it to the roof alive.

Right, but would they not have also found her scent outside of the tank? Honestly, I'm not sure that is just what would seem most likely? However, I'm sure there is a great margin of error... but when you take in consideration the kind of work cadaver dogs did post 9/11, I would think their training is very thorough as it is often a matter of life and death.

edit: This has good info: http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/mammals/sar-dog2.htm
But, I'm still not sure which type of SAR dog the police used?

 

[ceefry23]

What if perp took her clothes and she was embarrassed by being naked on the roof and tried hide in the tank?

Very possible! If the perp at all took her clothes as a means to keep from being followed then it does open a lot of possibilities why she got into the tank. Maybe to hide? Maybe she felt dirty after what had just happened? Unlikely that but it does make it seem more possible.

 

[medsleuth]

Good point why a rational young woman wouldn't run down to the lobby. There was more than one staircase if you look at the fire escape layout earlier in this thread. And of course a more basic question is what in the heck is she doing on the residential 15th floor far from the hostel 4th floor? And why would it seem that she would walk up there since there is no video of her getting to the 15th via elevator? My take is she was wandering the staircase in a manic state.

This is almost exactly my theory. I personally see nothing normal about her behavior on the elevator video. I believe that she had some kind of psychosis going on and fled up to the roof in an attempt to hide from what she perceived to be a threat. Why would a rational young woman run up to the roof rather to the lobby? Or hide in a water tank? They wouldn't. I don't believe she was in her right, rational mind.

 

[PopeReal]

We just don't know yet where her clothes are. But what if she got in the tank not to kill herself but because she was experiencing psychosis and wanted a place to hide? The choices are not limited to homicide and suicide.

In that case my question would be how difficult would it be for her to access the roof alone in such a state? And from there proceed to locate a water tank and climb in. I would guess that being a guest at the hotel for the first time she would probably not have known how to access the roof without being shown.

Would that have been likely for her to do in such a state? Or maybe more likely to just wander around the hotel hallways? I don't have an answer to that, maybe there are some people on this board who have some knowledge about psychosis who could answer that.

 

[fred&edna]

I think I said "IF (and that's a big if)" about suicide... I think it's more likely she was murdered or killed negligently and hidden.

If she was wrapped in plastic, why unwrap her before dropping her in?

And what I was saying that whether she was alive for an hour on the roof or brought to the roof in a reasonable amount of time after her death, some dogs would detect that as the same thing. IF those dogs were scent dogs, it wouldn't necessarily matter if she was alive or dead for a period of time when she was on the roof. And obviously, she was on the roof at some point. So unless she was kept dead somewhere for several days, there is a decent chance the dogs missed something. They aren't robots. Conditions vary. They're only human, so to speak.

Yes, you said "IF" in your post.

I'm not the search dog expert, and I agree they are not robots. But there are different types of S&R dog... tracking, trailing, etc. The dogs they used were searching for a missing person, not a deceased person.

Maybe we can get a verified S&R trainer/handler to give us more info?

 

[cluciano63]

As far as I know, tracking dogs, who work off an article of clothing or equivalent, would not "hit" on the smell of decomposition. They would/should only hit on her specific scent. If she was deceased when she was reached the roof, a tracking dog would probably not alert, but a cadaver dog should have.

 

[ceefry23]

Yes, you said "IF" in your post.

I'm not the search dog expert, and I agree they are not robots. But there are different types of S&R dog... tracking, trailing, etc. The dogs they used were searching for a missing person, not a deceased person.

Maybe we can get a verified S&R trainer/handler to give us more info?

Exactly what I was thinking

 

[Turk February]

Just throwing this video up again.

ANYBODY could of been able to get up the rooftops, since Feb.14th, 2012

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K-UQP2fPyc"]Cecil Hotel - YouTube[/ame]

Question is, HOW did they get up there?

Where they guests who had hotel rooms with windows situated next to the fire escape?


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlnOqmzwZuQ"]Cecil Hotel- downtown Los Angeles CA - YouTube[/ame]


Fast forward to 2:05 at this video above. There is a metal grate covering the access from the windows.




Also seems to be another fire escape located in the hallways at the Cecil Hotel. Are those alarmed and locked as well?
Was there a hanging fire escape ladder on the street level?

I remember a no tolerance policy of visitors going up the hotel floors at the Cecil Hotel.

Again, the rooftop entrance is locked, and has an alarm trigger that rings throughout the hotel if the door is opened. The alarm can be disabled if you have a special key to insert in the security panel. Only employees at the Cecil Hotel, specifically - Janitor, security, maintenance and management would have access to that key as well as keys to unlock the door up there.


If the theory that Elisa was murdered and then stuffed into a duffel bag for example - somehow had access to scale up the fire escape ladder WHILE carrying the duffel bag that contained a 5'4" tall, 130ish pound heavy woman;

That would mean this person has considerable strength. Security guards for example are required to have a strong physique.


What about the residents? I know the Cecil Hotel had a registered sex offender living there.


Lots of variables here.


Also, what about the loud tremendous noise reported by 89 year old Bernard Diaz who is a 32 year long resident at the Cecil Hotel?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...n-water-tank-identified-canadian-tourist.html

Bernard Diaz, 89, a 32-year tenant of the Cecil, said he heard a "tremendous" noise the night before Lam was missing in the fourth floor above him.

He also said there was flooding on the fourth floor the day after Lam went missing.

"They said there was some obstruction to the drain between the third and fourth floor," Diaz said.


I think this should be looked at once again based on some new findings here on this thread.

 

[xlittlewingx]

Does anyone know what floor the fitness room/gym is on? Usually they are on bottom level but maybe she was working out? What else would be on another floor that she may need or want to access?

 

[PopeReal]

Just throwing this video up again.

ANYBODY could of been able to get up the rooftops, since Feb.14th, 2012

Question is, HOW did they get up there?

Where they guests who had hotel rooms with windows situated next to the fire escape?

Thanks for putting that video up again, I knew I had seen that somewhere in this thread or the first one.

And yes that would be the big question, how easy was it for them to get up there? Was it something she could have done alone without much trouble?

 

[xlittlewingx]

As far as I know, tracking dogs, who work off an article of clothing or equivalent, would not "hit" on the smell of decomposition. They would/should only hit on her specific scent. If she was deceased when she was reached the roof, a tracking dog would probably not alert, but a cadaver dog should have.

The article I found said all SAR dogs would lead to decomposing remains if they find them, even if they're submersed in water... ?

 

[ceefry23]

The article I found said all SAR dogs would lead to decomposing remains if they find them, even if there submersed in water... ?

Sorry I just dont understand why the dogs capabilities are being questioned? It seems to be a simple fact that the dogs didnt find her. Why? they searched the roof correct. Did they not search the rest of the hotel? If Elisa wasnt in the tank when the dogs searched, where is it being suggested she was? In a room? did they not bring the dogs throughout the hotel as well?

Those sites say the dogs can do a lot of stuff but in reality they searched a hotel that IMO definitely contained a body, their target body, and didnt find it.

 

[Sillybilly]

I fear we will soon hear that cause of death is drowning, manner of death undetermined, and that few, if any, will be satisfied. And then some months from now, tox results will come back and still probably not really clarify matters much.

Is that your own theory cluciano, or do you feel that we will be "mushrooms" and that is the official story we'll be told?

 

[Turk February]

Good point why a rational young woman wouldn't run down to the lobby. There was more than one staircase if you look at the fire escape layout earlier in this thread. And of course a more basic question is what in the heck is she doing on the residential 15th floor far from the hostel 4th floor? And why would it seem that she would walk up there since there is no video of her getting to the 15th via elevator? My take is she was wandering the staircase in a manic state.

She isn't on the 15th floor in that CCTV video, nor the 14th floor as I first believed.


She mostly likely could still be on the Stay at Main hostel floors at 4-6, or around the 8th-7th floor which has dark green wallpaper on the hallways such as the one in the video. Although, I'll admit it is hard to tell due to the poor quality of the CCTV footage, which has poor saturation on the colors. If you notice when she steps outside the hallway, her red sweater isn't as vibrant in color as it is when is on the elevator.

Also, the 14th floor button is so dim in the video, I never knew it was actually lit this entire time until I saw on 3:13 when it turned off right when the elevator door opened, which means the elevator was actually going UP, not down.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TjVBpyTeZM"]Elisa Lam Video - YouTube[/ame]