IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[Darcyline]

I have no doubts that Lauren was very, very out of it/intoxicated. That has been pretty much supported by everything (including video in two different spots) except for CR's account. I will take video tape and multiple witness accounts over CR's "make me look better" press blitz at the beginning.

I am not sure how that would make the case move forward though. Still no body or evidence of a murder. Every boy immediately had a high powered lawyer carefully managing all interaction between client and LE and parents. No confessions. All establishing that she was extremely intoxicated does is maybe eventually set up a wrongful death lawsuit that would be civil and not criminal. CR did technically carry an extremely intoxicated girl away from her apartment. Even then, I am not sure they would have enough evidence.

That is where the story breaks down for me. I believe witness accounts and the video that LS was very intoxicated on something. I do NOT believe for a SECOND that she entered their apartment, was suddenly ok, tucked CR in, and then went and tried to corrupt poor MB by getting him to party with her before leaving. I just don't. I do not believe that story at all.
But, if I don't believe that story that means I would have to implicate at least 3 people if not more in a cover up of some sort (CR, MB, JR, and possible 1-2 other guests) and I don't really believe that either.
So, I am stuck and I am sure LE is as well. Very frustrating. I wonder what LE's lead theory is right now? They do have more info than us.

 

[akh]

For one thing, you don't need a body to bring murder charges. Being able to dispose of a body doesn't absolve you of being charged with murder. Of course there needs to be some pretty solid evidence that makes it clear what has happened though.

To hear some people's theories if it was as cut and dried as they've portrayed things then you'd think that type of evidence would be there. First and foremost, if witnesses and video leave no doubt that she was incoherent, incapable of walking, and being taken somewhere quite possibly (if not obviously) against her will... And then it's simply impossible a short while later she would be going from one apartment to another and walking home on her own then that would be some fairly solid evidence that the person(s) telling that story are lying and guilty of her disappearance.

Further, as I've said before, this case has a ground zero for the prevailing overall theory to be investigated. Unlike some cases where there might be PsOI or a likely suspect but no idea what might've happened and where, this theory has the 'where' answered. ...and the 'what' would be narrowed down to a few likely possibilities (OD, something sexual, injury). So LE would be able to hone their investigation to look for evidence to support the theory, and know exactly the area to look.

So, knowing where to look for evidence of a crime, and knowing who to pressure and investigate, yet they don't end up with anything they are comfortable acting upon... ?? And this being a crime that almost has to be a conspiracy that some info now has it even widening with JR potentially having guests. Yet, either they didn't make any mistakes, got lucky and left no evidence of a crime, or else LE was too inept to find anything actionable? Nobody talked to anyone and/or got their story wrong and sent up red flags?

They even returned to Bloomington, which in all likelihood was not something their attorneys would have recommended, and still didn't slip up where any mistake would be magnified with the disappearance fresh in people's minds?

I just don't think the actual evidence that she was out of it entirely must jive with what's on video and/or exactly what the witnesses have told LE. It might point that way, but not conclusively like some of you want to believe.

If it was so conclusive that she could not have walked out of 5N at 4:30AM then why are LE and PI's discussing other PsOI? Why is anyone (PI's, Spierers) worried about JW's level of cooperation and refusal to take a LE LD test?

I say none of this to say they are innocent... I say it only to present another side of the coin to those that think they have to be guilty.

 

[akh]

Who do you think has embellished the story?

It's just human nature for a witness to revisit a memory and with the knowledge that something went wrong to look at things thru a prism of hindsight and assign different weights to things.

 

[Ros]

You'd think Martinsville would have been checked, if only because of the activity there (search after report of a smell).

Katelyn's FB page says she also studied at Ivy Tech. (It appears that school has more than one campus, though.)

I second your thought about finding Katelyn quickly.

FYI, Ivy Tech is Indiana's community college system. It has campuses (sometimes several campuses) in over a dozen cities in Indiana. However, Linton is not close to any of them. Bloomington is about an hour away and might be the closest one but other posts suggest that she went to class on the Terre Haute campus. See comments to article at this link:

http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/1976619.html

Katelyn's Facebook claim that someone was following her is intriguing. So, here's another theory of the crime, is that someone with connections to Ivy Tech was stalking both LS and KW...

However, we do not even know for sure whether LS had taken a class at Ivy Tech or was going to take a class at Ivy Tech. CS said that she was still in town waiting for JW to finish his summer class.

 

[LongTallTexan]

If LS went there it would certainly explain JW's avoidance of a LE administered lie detector test. I also have always wondered why JW needed to get the key to LS's apartment from HT if he was simply checking to see if LS was there. If she was there, she could answer the door when he came over. If she wasn't there, she wouldn't answer the door of course but there'd be no reason for JW to enter the apartment. So why the key?

And why couldn't HT answer that question for him? Again, why the key?

 

[imkeylime]

FYI, Ivy Tech is Indiana's community college system. It has campuses (sometimes several campuses) in over a dozen cities in Indiana. However, Linton is not close to any of them. Bloomington is about an hour away and might be the closest one but other posts suggest that she went to class on the Terre Haute campus. See comments to article at this link:

http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/1976619.html

Katelyn's Facebook claim that someone was following her is intriguing. So, here's another theory of the crime, is that someone with connections to Ivy Tech was stalking both LS and KW...

However, we do not even know for sure whether LS had taken a class at Ivy Tech or was going to take a class at Ivy Tech. CS said that she was still in town waiting for JW to finish his summer class.

Thanks for the info. From this report, it appears that LS was supposed to take a summer class at Ivy Tech (http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81836), but it doesn't say if the class had started. ???

It is intriguing that Katelyn FBed about someone following her. There is one comment about that being a setup for a staged disappearance, but since LE and family is taking her disappearance very seriously, I doubt that.

The circumstances could be similar, except Katelyn had her phone. I hate to think that LS was in such a situation but couldn't even alert anyone ...

 

[doubtingthomas]

This question is for the legal community. Since it has been two years since LS went missing and CR has made his comments about his attorney, is it possible he no longer has an attorney? Two years is a long time to pay an attorney if nothing has been found. If not, wouldn't LE want to start asking him questions? Or any of the other PsOI also.

 

[Dixie811]

Regarding JW getting a key from HT... NW claims that JW was always babysitting Lauren and her "drug abuse problem". JW may have thought it possible that Lauren could be passed out or possibly OD'd in her room (according to AW, Jesse thought Lauren was staying home that night... but after getting her phone from Kilroy's and speaking with HT the next day, he would have known she had gone out and partied instead).

Maybe he got the apartment key in case Lauren was unable to respond and open the door. If JW was concerned enough with her drug use to threaten to call and tell her parents (again, if we believe NW) then I think it's reasonable he may be worried about her condition after a night of partying.

I wonder if Lauren had ever been taken for medical care regarding an overdose before? Probably not, but if so her privacy would be protected under the law so it is obviously not public info for us to know. It makes no difference to me if she had been treated for an OD or the like before, of course. I just wonder if JW had ever had to take such extreme measures for Lauren-- it may explain his concern in looking for her early that morning and obtaining a key from HT.

JMO & thoughts.
Great posts, everyone.

 

[akh]

http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/1976905.html

Breaking News: Body found in rural Greene County believed to be missing teen Katelyn Wolfe
Monday, June 10, 2013
By Anna Rochelle, Staff Writer


Linton Police Chief Troy Jerrell announced late Monday evening that officers have located the body of a deceased female in rural Greene County.

"Although we do not have 100 percent identification, we do believe this is Katelyn Wolfe," said Jerrell, "and we do suspect foul play.

 

[concernedmother]

http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/1976905.html

I posted on Katelyn's the distance and I think it definitely is worth checking out.
42.1 mi, 1 hour 1 min distance between these towns. Both these girls out walking alone late night. Nothing has turned up looking at these kids I think its worth looking from a different view point that someone may be picking these girls up. Hopefully since Katelyn has been found pretty quick there is some good evidence to glean.

 

[AbbeyR]

http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/1976905.html

So sad.

I hope they find the person responsible soon.

 

[concernedmother]

They arrested 2 boys from Jasonville. One of them was her fb friend and the 2 boys were fb friends. So this probably isnt connected at all to Laurens case.

 

[masootz]

This question is for the legal community. Since it has been two years since LS went missing and CR has made his comments about his attorney, is it possible he no longer has an attorney? Two years is a long time to pay an attorney if nothing has been found. If not, wouldn't LE want to start asking him questions? Or any of the other PsOI also.

i think most of the time you retain the attorney but only pay them if something comes up. in other words, they were likely paying the attorney in the beginning when he was answering questions, giving statements, etc but probably not most of the past two years if he hasn't done anything for CR. he'd still be CR's attorney if LE wanted an interview or if something else came up. hope that makes sense.

 

[akh]

This question is for the legal community. Since it has been two years since LS went missing and CR has made his comments about his attorney, is it possible he no longer has an attorney? Two years is a long time to pay an attorney if nothing has been found. If not, wouldn't LE want to start asking him questions? Or any of the other PsOI also.

He would've paid a retainer fee. This could've included X hours of work with anything over that or beyond that in scope billable at Y... But regardless of the exact arrangement, once the attorney was retained, he wouldn't have to keep paying him just to call him his attorney. And there wouldn't likely be any further billing unless something was happening in the case (LE wanting a meeting for example).

 

[AbbeyR]

Did anyone post these yet? (Sorry if I missed them)

Spierer Family: Students know more than they're saying

video.foxnews.com/v/2424318810001/spierer-family-students-know-more-than-theyre-saying-/

Interview with retired FBI agent

video.foxnews.com/v/2424247417001/lauren-spierers-disappearance-baffles-investigators/

 

[jjenny]

You don't need a body to prosecute, but at least you need some evidence and an idea of what happened.
And even in cases where it's pretty obvious who the suspect is, prosecution is not eager to prosecute without a body.
I am not sure police has anything like that here.
They haven't named anyone a suspect.
They have a bunch of persons of interest, but all these persons of interest couldn't possibly be guilty.
So who are they going to prosecute?

 

[Kadence]

For one thing, you don't need a body to bring murder charges. Being able to dispose of a body doesn't absolve you of being charged with murder. Of course there needs to be some pretty solid evidence that makes it clear what has happened though." Snipped by me.

It is very true that you don't need a body to get a murder conviction. A case near and very dear to my heart, was the first where someone, Stephen Epperly, was convicted of murder without a body, that of Ms. Gina Renee Hall.

http://murderpedia.org/male.E/e/epperly-stephen.htm

From the article: "For murder though it have no tongue, will speak with most miraculous organ."
~William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Prince of Denmark

I hope those words are carefully heeded by whoever disappeared Lauren, your deeds will catch up to you and will be shouted out loud - do the right thing.

Not sure I did the "snipping" properly, it's my first attempt at doing so! Fingers crossed as I hit the "submit reply" button!

 

[imkeylime]

Did anyone post these yet? (Sorry if I missed them)

Spierer Family: Students know more than they're saying

video.foxnews.com/v/2424318810001/spierer-family-students-know-more-than-theyre-saying-/

Interview with retired FBI agent

video.foxnews.com/v/2424247417001/lauren-spierers-disappearance-baffles-investigators/

I myself am baffled right. The Spierers come across so unassuming in the midst of this tragedy. I'm really not getting the venom in the W's or CR's interviews. They just want to bring their daughter home. I hope CR breaks at some point soon and talks to them.

 

[Dixie811]

Abbey... just watched those videos. Thanks!

Things that caught my attention:

Rob and Charlene reiterated that they did speak with JR with an attorney, but had not been able to speak to either CR or MB. Hearing this again it stuck out to me that MB, who according to his own story was rather removed from the events of the night, has chosen not to speak to the Spierer's. Later in the video Charlene refers to the notion that MB was "supposedly sober and working on a paper". If the story of the 5N guys was true, I don't know why MB would refuse to talk to the Spierer's even with an attorney. Perhaps he is just scared of somehow being implicated... but it seems to me that public suspicion lies mostly with CR and JR.

When asked which one young man in particular they would most like to have a discussion with and ask questions of, Rob answered Corey. Personally, I find this interesting. It is understandable because CR was with Lauren the entire night and he is the individual who should have gotten her help much earlier in the evening. However, they do not mention JR and that he is supposedly the last person to see Lauren and to watch her walk away, and he is essentially confirming the CR and MB's stories while taking the blame as the last person to be with Lauren.

The Spierer's stated in this video that they in fact have not been able to view the Smallwood video of Lauren and Corey. This may already be known by y'all, but I wanted to point it out because I wasn't sure.

The Spierer's also state that LE has never contacted them regarding another assault in Bloomington indicating that they see a possibility it is connected to Lauren's case. Of course, LE doesn't share everything about the investigation with the family.

The Spierer's seem to focus most of their attention on the 5N gang.. but they do mention that there is a small chance an abduction is possible.

I have a great amount of respect for the Spierer's. They appear to conduct themselves with class and dignity throughout the most difficult time any parent could go through. JW's parents and CR have recently spoken out against the Spierer's in the media. While the Spierer's are honest about their suspicions of the POI's, I do not see them name calling, inciting the public, or throwing cheap insults around. In the public eye, at least, they speak of the boys as respectfully as possible (difficult in some instances).

I have been thinking about the idea of Lauren taking a fall. I have had more than one family member fall down a flight of stairs and unfortunately die. One was while intoxicated. The 5N apartments were townhouses (stairs) I believe, and we do know that Lauren had already fallen a few times that night and was having difficulty standing. I have always attributed any accidental death theory to an OD, but a fall is very possible as well. The stairs in the 5N townhouses would provide an opportunity for a fall that may cause sudden death.

The other possibility for a death resulting from a fall could be.. my grandfather fell while out taking a walk and hit his head on the curb. He continued his walk home, sat down in his easy chair and said goodnight to my grandmother. When she woke up the next morning he was unresponsive still slumped in the chair (barely alive). He had a brain bleed and died as a result, but after hitting his head he was still able to function for a while. We know that Lauren hit her head on the concrete AT LEAST once according to witness/video. But appeared to be at least conscious for a little while after the first fall. Could something similar have happened to her? Possibly.

Sorry for such a BOOK!

 

[imkeylime]

Abbey... just watched those videos. Thanks!

Things that caught my attention:

... I have been thinking about the idea of Lauren taking a fall. I have had more than one family member fall down a flight of stairs and unfortunately die. One was while intoxicated. The 5N apartments were townhouses (stairs) I believe, and we do know that Lauren had already fallen a few times that night and was having difficulty standing. I have always attributed any accidental death theory to an OD, but a fall is very possible as well. The stairs in the 5N townhouses would provide an opportunity for a fall that may cause sudden death.

The other possibility for a death resulting from a fall could be.. my grandfather fell while out taking a walk and hit his head on the curb. He continued his walk home, sat down in his easy chair and said goodnight to my grandmother. When she woke up the next morning he was unresponsive still slumped in the chair (barely alive). He had a brain bleed and died as a result, but after hitting his head he was still able to function for a while. We know that Lauren hit her head on the concrete AT LEAST once according to witness/video. But appeared to be at least conscious for a little while after the first fall. Could something similar have happened to her? Possibly.

Sorry for such a BOOK!

This is an interesting theory. I can see it happening ... and I can also imagine a POI or POIs not knowing what was going on if they were also inebriated. That's not an excuse for not acting, by any means ... but LS could have had a long QT attack or a cerebral bleed that went unnoticed, if the focus was on drugs and alcohol overdose. Just saying. Failure to act could have been deadly in either of the above circumstances.