GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972

OK, I think I may have found some info that may, I'm saying MAY, help determine whether Knowles even would be a possibility in this case.

From a December 1974 article from Florida:


...Records show Knowles career of crime began at the age of 9. He served four terms in the reformatory at Marianna and one in a Maryland reformatory. ...

A five-year breaking and entering sentence in 1971 was his sixth felony conviction. That sentence was served concurrently with two three-year terms for prison escape and resisting arrest stemming from an incident in October 1972 when he failed to return from prison furlough at Jacksonville and ran from a policeman. ...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2P4rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pccEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1863%2C6379790

So... it sounds as if he should have been incarcerated in June 1972...but then again, what were these "prison furloughs" all about...? What do y'all think?
 
A little bit back, I posted a link to a Macon television station 13WMAZ story from late 2011, when Ima Jean Sanders' remains finally were identified and linked to Knowles, and I mentioned that the web page also included archive video from earlier Knowles' coverage.

Here is the direct link to the video of an interview (with voice-over by Randall Savage) with the Macon woman with whom Knowles was involved. (I do not know to when, exactly, the interview dates -- that's not clear to me. But it would seem to be a good while after Knowles' "spree" and death in 1974.

It is clearly stated here that she was indeed married to Knowles, that they married in 1970. (Still does not, as far as I can tell, answer the question of whether he would have been able to be in Macon at any time in 1972.) She had kids (not sure what ages they would have been) and apparently Knowles helped provide for them, babysat them, etc.

Worth a listen, though, for sure.

http://www.13wmaz.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=1340956679001

She seems very sincere to me -- I don't believe she knew what all was going on with Knowles. She does recall that knives and extension cords kept disappearing ...uggh.
 
I will watch the video on my home computer this evening. My work computer doesn't have speakers so I can't do it right now.
I am trying to upload an attachment of what Westgate Mall looked like with different areas marked out. Let's see if this works. Okay, looks like it did. So I had some help with this from a local who remembers the mall and this is my understanding of the marked areas. The blue dot is the rear parking lot by the Piggly Wiggly. The red dot is the rear parking lot by the Big Apple. The yellow line represents Pio Nino where the vehicle was later found parked across the street by the Krispy Kreme and a tire store. The green line is the Eisenhower/Mill Irons road area and there was supposedly a steep drop-off there. Where the pink line is was also a steep drop-off into undeveloped land. Windows were mainly just in the front so if Carlene parked in one of the lots near the grocery stores it's possibly nobody would have seen her. I'm going thru all my saved info on this case and will upload more as I get it sorted. Maybe this will give a better idea of how the mall and parking lots were laid out.
 

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I will watch the video on my home computer this evening. My work computer doesn't have speakers so I can't do it right now.
I am trying to upload an attachment of what Westgate Mall looked like with different areas marked out. Let's see if this works. Okay, looks like it did. So I had some help with this from a local who remembers the mall and this is my understanding of the marked areas. The blue dot is the rear parking lot by the Piggly Wiggly. The red dot is the rear parking lot by the Big Apple. The yellow line represents Pio Nino where the vehicle was later found parked across the street by the Krispy Kreme and a tire store. The green line is the Eisenhower/Mill Irons road area and there was supposedly a steep drop-off there. Where the pink line is was also a steep drop-off into undeveloped land. Windows were mainly just in the front so if Carlene parked in one of the lots near the grocery stores it's possibly nobody would have seen her. I'm going thru all my saved info on this case and will upload more as I get it sorted. Maybe this will give a better idea of how the mall and parking lots were laid out.

bbm: OK, I THINK I finally get that you are saying, from your study and sleuthing of the case on various fronts, that the car was NOT in the Westgate parking lot at all, but across Pio Nono, in front of the Krispy Kreme on the Krispy-Kreme side (and not, as I have been thinking all this time, at the edge of the Westgate parking lot by Pio Nono, "in front" of the Krispy Kreme from across Pio Nono).

Wow. If that is the case -- that changes things, from my point of view. I will have to let that percolate around in my head for a while.

Sorry if I have been seeming really dense about this -- but all I really had to go on was the two-part article that says the car was found "right there at Westgate" and "in front of the Krispy Kreme". Guess, if you are correct, that "right there at Westgate" is meant in the sense of right there, in the area, not in parking lot, but a stone's throw away.

OK -- on to your graphic of Westgate:

First of all, this is based on an artist's concept, I think, of Westgate around the time it opened in 1961. At that time, yeah, there was LOTS undeveloped around the new shopping center -- in fact, it pretty much was the "west gate" of Macon -- west of there, there was not very much at all. And that fountain in front ...? Wow, I don't remember that at all -- it must have disappeared fairly early on. (There were fountains inside though, within my memory.)

In later years (after 1961), there was much, much spread west -- shopping centers and plazas, etc., the Macon Mall in 1975, and on and on.

Pretty sure that by 1972, some of that had happened already -- so the immediately-surrounding area was, IMO, by that time, not really the almost-totally-undeveloped look that shows in the graphic. (Also, if you look at a Google image of the area from today, you can also see how much the construction/development of Eisenhower Pkw. encroached on the "green line" area in the graphic. There was and is a steep bank there, though, that's true.)

That said, there are a few stores/centers I am trying to find the schedule of development on, especially K-Mart and Zayre, which both sprung up really nearby Westgate -- I always get confused in my memory which was where (and it is more confusing because at least one, maybe both, of those also later MOVED further west out US 80/Eisenhower before finally closing. BTW, in hunting histories, I never know whether to use the US 80 designation or Eisenhower Pkwy, because I am not sure when Eisenhower came into existence exactly -- will try to check that out as well).

I THINK that maybe both K-Mart and Zayre were already in existence by 1972, but I want to confirm this -- I know there are Macon folks who could lay it out clear, probably, wish I had one handy!

At any rate, one of these stores/centers was built across (north) US 80 (Eisenhower) from Westgate. I THINK that was Kmart.

The other was to the west, in the "back" of Westgate, on the same side of Eisenhower, yep, down a huge sort of wild-appearing (as I remember) drop, and faced Eisenhower.

When you read the accounts that Carlene stopped by "the plaza" to leave a note on her boyfriend's car at Winn Dixie -- that was at one or the other of these centers I'm talking about, I'm pretty sure. I THINK maybe the one to the west, just behind, Westgate, down the big old drop, which I THINK was the Zayre center...but again, not certain.

ETA: Just thinking -- all of what I've described above, etc., the dates of construction, etc., could also go toward answering someone's (I think maybe puzzleme's?) question about whether there was any construction going on in the area at the time. My guess would be, yes. It was a rapidly developing area around that time.
 
Yes, that news article was very confusing in a lot of ways. From what I understand now, the boyfriend didn't work in the Westgate plaza really, but in a different grocery store. At first I thought maybe he worked at the Piggly Wiggly but it was not, and if I am looking at this correctly, she would have turned in and passed by his place of work first, most likely, coming from where she lived. She left a note on the car and then I suppose she went to the mall. Since she was seen by some boys in the mall then she had to be abducted either when she returned to the car or somewhere on the way to picking up her sister from camp. I'm not clear on where the library was from there or how far, but that's where her sister was waiting. The news account said it had rained earlier so maybe that's why the camp took the kids to the library???
The news account also sounds as if the car looked normal except for sitting there unlocked with the windows down. So if it rained earlier, either the abductor didn't take her off the main roads or else he cleaned the car up. I didn't see anything about there being any mud on it. You would expect him to want to get her to an isolated area quickly without being seen with her. Maybe he had a house in the area though and he could have taken her there. You would also expect that a person brazen enough to commit this kind of act was probably not doing it for the first time, or at least he sounds like the type who would go on to do further crimes of this sort. After all, he got away with it.
In today's world LE would take it more seriously and thoroughly process the car. Who knows what would have been found if they had today's technology? Did they even have some of the stuff they use today to check for things like blood or other bodily fluids? Because the interior may have looked clean to the eye but there could have been lots of evidence.
I still think this sounds like something done by someone with a bit of maturity, either that or it was a young man who got really lucky by not getting caught.
 
Yes, that news article was very confusing in a lot of ways. From what I understand now, the boyfriend didn't work in the Westgate plaza really, but in a different grocery store. At first I thought maybe he worked at the Piggly Wiggly but it was not, and if I am looking at this correctly, she would have turned in and passed by his place of work first, most likely, coming from where she lived. She left a note on the car and then I suppose she went to the mall. Since she was seen by some boys in the mall then she had to be abducted either when she returned to the car or somewhere on the way to picking up her sister from camp. I'm not clear on where the library was from there or how far, but that's where her sister was waiting. The news account said it had rained earlier so maybe that's why the camp took the kids to the library???
The news account also sounds as if the car looked normal except for sitting there unlocked with the windows down. So if it rained earlier, either the abductor didn't take her off the main roads or else he cleaned the car up. I didn't see anything about there being any mud on it. You would expect him to want to get her to an isolated area quickly without being seen with her. Maybe he had a house in the area though and he could have taken her there. You would also expect that a person brazen enough to commit this kind of act was probably not doing it for the first time, or at least he sounds like the type who would go on to do further crimes of this sort. After all, he got away with it.
In today's world LE would take it more seriously and thoroughly process the car. Who knows what would have been found if they had today's technology? Did they even have some of the stuff they use today to check for things like blood or other bodily fluids? Because the interior may have looked clean to the eye but there could have been lots of evidence.
I still think this sounds like something done by someone with a bit of maturity, either that or it was a young man who got really lucky by not getting caught.

bbm: My post just above yours will tell you where I think it is that he worked. From her house, there would have been a couple of different ways to go to Westgate -- sure would like to know which was the family's customary route, which Carlene as a fairly new driver would have been most comfortable with, etc.

The library -- kind of sounds to me as if it means a library at Mercer, where the day-camp kids had taken the campus tour? But again, that is not too clear from the article.

My gut feeling on this is an older perp, too, dogperson -- I don't mean necessarily vastly older, but not right around Carlene's age.

I have thought of SO many things that "would be different" if this happened today ... but, it didn't. Yeah, I would like to know what kind of forensics they DID do. We know they finally did fingerprint the car -- think the article says that was a wash-out or something similar -- wish I knew exactly what that means, though. No non-family fingerprints ... unidentified fingerprints but no matches ... what.

I thought of trying to find original "media coverage" at a Macon library, but, you know what? There may not have been any. It was the 1970s, teenagers not where they were expected so often looked at as likely runaways (and, to be fair, some of them were).
 
Do we know "for sure" that the keys were in the ignition (or, maybe, elsewhere in the car) when it was found?

I know it's said the car was unlocked and the windows rolled down, but I can't find anything specific about the keys.
 
Even knowing something small like whether the driver's seat seemed to have been adjusted other than how Carlene would have had it might be helpful ... <sigh>
 
Which way did the car face? Krispy Kreme or some other store? And was there a motel/hotel within a mile of the Krispy? If so do you know the name of it?

If the windows were rolled down it could mean the kidnapper was a smoker. I wonder if the family noticed a smoke smell to the car?
 
Which way did the car face? Krispy Kreme or some other store? And was there a motel/hotel within a mile of the Krispy? If so do you know the name of it?

If the windows were rolled down it could mean the kidnapper was a smoker. I wonder if the family noticed a smoke smell to the car?

bbm: I wonder if the car had air-conditioning. It was a 1963 model, it very well may not have. And it was June in Georgia -- that's pretty much reason enough to roll the windows down (if no ac) in itself. The smoking (or other odors) is also a possibility, though.
 
I'm thinking the car may not have had air-conditioning. None of the cars my parents had when I was a kid in the 70s had it. Didn't the news article say the temps got to around 90 degrees after the rain stopped? Pretty hot to be driving around with the windows up.

I am going thru the stuff I've collected on Carlene's case, which isn't a huge amount, but I think I did have the closest route from her house. She lived on Easy Street and probably would have taken the shortest route from there. I will look that up and post it in a bit. I'm doing this from work so I have to do it a little bit at a time.

I'm thinking whoever took her was at least in his 20s, maybe 30s or 40s. If it was Knowles I think I figured up once that he would have been about 26, and women seemed to find him charismatic, so if a young guy mid-20s and not bad looking walked up to Carlene in the parking lot she probably wouldn't have been scared. Who would expect to be kidnapped in the middle of the day like that? So maybe he pretended he needed directions or something. I will have to recheck Debardeleben's age and looks status in 1972. I don't yet have the book I ordered about him.

My understanding is that the boyfriend must have been working all afternoon and I don't have the impression he was a suspect. He couldn't have done it if he was at work the whole time, not even on a break because that would take more time than a break would provide. Plus he was out searching for her with the family so he couldn't have placed the car near the Krispy Kreme later.

I too have wondered whether the seat was pushed back farther than normal. Carlene was tall though, at 5'9" she may have had to scoot the seat back anyway, so unless the man was taller than that he may not have had to adjust it. For example, my husband and I drive both our cars without ever adjusting the seat, even though I am 5'5" and he is 5'11" because I like to sit farther back than he does, plus I have long legs. I would really really love to know the details about the car: mileage, how much gas was in the tank, the seat position, whether it looked like it had been wiped down or washed.
 
Okay, in the info I had collected on Carlene, this would have been the most logical route to the mall from her house. From the direction she would have been coming from on Eisenhower, she would have turned right into the grocery store lot where the boyfriend worked. Probably that&#8217;s when she left the note. She would have come back out onto Eisenhower and taken the next right into the back of the Piggly Wiggly side. Where she would have parked I am not sure.
Were there any dirt roads or back roads close to the mall at that time?
 
Okay, in the info I had collected on Carlene, this would have been the most logical route to the mall from her house. From the direction she would have been coming from on Eisenhower, she would have turned right into the grocery store lot where the boyfriend worked. Probably that&#8217;s when she left the note. She would have come back out onto Eisenhower and taken the next right into the back of the Piggly Wiggly side. Where she would have parked I am not sure.
Were there any dirt roads or back roads close to the mall at that time?

bbm: There absolutely were dirt roads within short distances of Westgate at that time. Still are a few, I imagine, if you know where to look.

Branching just a bit farther, into non-Macon (at the time -- because just this past year city and county are being consolidated) Bibb County and adjacent counties, there were huge numbers of dirt roads.
 
Which way did the car face? Krispy Kreme or some other store? And was there a motel/hotel within a mile of the Krispy? If so do you know the name of it?

If the windows were rolled down it could mean the kidnapper was a smoker. I wonder if the family noticed a smoke smell to the car?

bbm: In the post with which dogperson started this thread, there is this link, http://unsolveditn.blogspot.com/2009/08/when-missing-becomes-gone-mother.html -- which no longer works.

I found a small portion of the same 2009 story, though, at another link:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/08/09/v-print/73331/a-georgia-mother-remembers-when.html

(The "for the rest of the story" link at that link also leads nowhere.)

But look at this sentence from the fragment:

The station wagon surfaced that night at the mall, but Carlene never did.
Is it any wonder I couldn't get it through my head that the car was NOT in the Westgate parking lot?

What I'm wondering now is whether, in the early days after Carlene went missing, LE kept exactly where the car was found kind of quiet -- maybe because its location/position -- such as, as you ask, which way it was facing -- held some possible clues. Then maybe the "it was found at Westgate" just kind of hung on through the years, as an artifact.

I have had no luck finding articles from 1972, when she disappeared, to see just what was reported. Going to try some other avenues, when I get the chance, though.
 
I understand completely. The car is driving me crazy too!

Where were the houses located that the mother was talking about? If these neighbors heard screams where were they coming from the parking lot or somewhere else.
 
I understand completely. The car is driving me crazy too!

Where were the houses located that the mother was talking about? If these neighbors heard screams where were they coming from the parking lot or somewhere else.

I think it just says "people behind Westgate" said they heard screaming. I have no idea when/where this was first reported (or to whom). Also don't know if it means people in a neighborhood or what. Behind part of Westgate, the south end, down the big drop was the shopping center where I'm pretty sure the Winn Dixie where the boyfriend worked was. Behind that center would also have been behind Westgate -- behind the north end of Westgate -- and there may have been/may be houses there, I'm not sure -- or it may have been undeveloped, even wooded, at that time...?

Guess it could just refer to people in the back parking lot of Westgate, too.

Would be really interesting to know who the "people behind Westgate" were and exactly what they reported ... and what LE thought of it.
 
puzzleme, I'm trying to link a map, never done this before on WS, I don't think:

https://maps.google.com/maps?expfla...gate+Mall+Shopping+Center&iwloc=A&gl=US&hl=en

OK now -- hope that worked -- if so, you see the red "pin" is Westgate. (The old mall is all gone, just newer buildings in sort of a strip mall set-up, and even most of that is dying.) Now, see the shopping center just to the west, where the Small Smiles Dental Center is labeled? I think that's where the boyfriend's Winn Dixie was. On this modern map, I see there are/is streets/an apparent neighborhood lying behind that center (behind that center is south of it, because it fronts to the north) and "behind" part of Westgate (because Westgate fronts to the east -- as a mall it did, anyhow) -- I don't know how much of that was there in 1972. Westgate sits up on a hill, with a pretty big drop down to the other center.

Now look east of Westgate, across Pio Nono. See Hightower Road? Krispy Kreme is there, at the corner of Pio Nono and Hightower (across Pio Nono from Westgate).
 
I wonder if the police ever went out and questioned people who worked at the mall, or people who had been at the mall that day, to see if they saw anybody talking to Carlene or anybody who looked like they were lurking around the parking lot. The boys who said they saw her there, I wonder if they just voluntarily told their parents or the police that they saw her or whether the police were actually questioning anybody. Considering police wanted to insist she ran away, I tend to think they didn't try very hard to talk to anybody. I too wondered who the people were who said they heard screams. If it was people at the mall, why didn't they try to check out what was happening? Maybe they thought it was some kids goofing off, I don't know. People can be funny about not trying to help others. When I was in my late teens a boyfriend was being rough with me out in public and yelling at me and shaking me. I started screaming, because people were around, but not one person came over or really even looked at us. Thankfully, it was enough to make him let go of me and I don't know what became of him after that (lol). So maybe the folks who heard the screaming just thought it was none of their business and forgot about it until they heard about Carlene.
 
I think it just says "people behind Westgate" said they heard screaming. I have no idea when/where this was first reported (or to whom). Also don't know if it means people in a neighborhood or what. Behind part of Westgate, the south end, down the big drop was the shopping center where I'm pretty sure the Winn Dixie where the boyfriend worked was. Behind that center would also have been behind Westgate -- behind the north end of Westgate -- and there may have been/may be houses there, I'm not sure -- or it may have been undeveloped, even wooded, at that time...?

Guess it could just refer to people in the back parking lot of Westgate, too.

Would be really interesting to know who the "people behind Westgate" were and exactly what they reported ... and what LE thought of it.

bbm: Dang it, I am just gonna QUIT trying to use the four basic compass directions, because I switch them 3/4 of the time!!!

Quoting my own post here, above -- too late for me to edit it --to say that the bolded part SHOULD read:

Behind part of Westgate, the north end, down the big drop was the shopping center where I'm pretty sure the Winn Dixie where the boyfriend worked was. Behind that center would also have been behind Westgate -- behind the south end of Westgate -- and there may have been/may be houses there
 

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