PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[J. J. in Phila]

I have heard that the podcast will have new information and might point to a coverup of the investigation.

 

[Falcon500]

I have heard that the podcast will have new information and might point to a coverup of the investigation.

Oh sure. Has there ever been an unsolved case in history where a “ coverup” was not alleged?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Oh sure. Has there ever been an unsolved case in history where a “ coverup” was not alleged?

Just telling you what I've heard. The police did hold back information, e.g. the computer searches of how to damage a hard drive.

 

[DeDee]

The forensics on Ray's finances proves what I've always thought about him. That is, Ray was a honest, hard-working gentleman who lived a quiet life.

The evening before he went missing he was seen on CCTV entering and departing his office building without his attaché. If he worked until after 9:00pm, then that explains his tiredness and willingness to sleep late the next morning.

But, why would he work at night for 3 hours without his laptop?

How many computers are we discussing? One was in the top of Patty's closet. Ray purchased a new desktop in 2004, the same year he paid cash for the Mini Cooper. Did he have another computer at work?

His laptop is found on July 30 with the hard drive removed. Is this the laptop that was in Patty's closet?

I don't think Ray walked away when he was a mere 9 months away from full retirement benefits. He could have those retirement checks directly deposited into nearly any bank in the world.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for emphasis.

The forensics on Ray's finances proves what I've always thought about him. That is, Ray was a honest, hard-working gentleman who lived a quiet life.

It does show that for someone earning as much as he did, RFG did not have a lot of money. Why that is is the question.

How many computers are we discussing? One was in the top of Patty's closet. Ray purchased a new desktop in 2004, the same year he paid cash for the Mini Cooper. Did he have another computer at work?

His laptop is found on July 30 with the hard drive removed. Is this the laptop that was in Patty's closet?

I don't think Ray walked away when he was a mere 9 months away from full retirement benefits. He could have those retirement checks directly deposited into nearly any bank in the world.

RFG had his work desktop in his office, his home desktop, purchased around Christmas 2004, and his county issued laptop. He had used the laptop as his home computer prior to getting the home desktop. That laptop was the one found in the river. I don't know if it would categorize it as "Patty's closet." I had the impression that was a bedroom closet.

RFG's pension check location and address after he required would be a matter of public record, which could have been a reason not to collect it. The total pension went to his heirs, which could be another reason.

 

[minazoe]

NEW THREAD??? WOW..WELL I have been busy...I still think Ray got himself into something..if he only spent 16.5 k in 2.5 years...where is his money? it doesn't add up .

something very wrong with the Ray story and I still think he was murdered.

could he have been cheating ? could Patti put a hit on him? could he have dumped the computer because he had been found out and didn't want his other communications discovered..

or again..could the blonde have been the wife of someone?

cheaters love to meet in out of the way places to tryst away from prying eyes.

if he cuckholded someone's husband that is motive 100 percent.

if he was in trouble with bad dudes, if this is why he had no money..if he was having to pay..
if he got involved in something shady and lost all his money...this could be a reason to commit suicide.

something was obviously going on..so I've said it all again. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

PEF could have said, **Get out of my house, and don't take my car.** She was probably worse off financially until he was declared dead, so a hit does not make too much sense.

A cuckold is possible, but a bit unlikely. Why didn't the hypothetical husband kill his wife, especially if she was present. If her lover died, would she trust her husband knowing that her lover mysteriously vanished and that he might have done it?

I have considered the possibility that he met a woman and had a lover's quarrel that escalated into her hitting or pushing him. Also that RFG was with a woman and that there was accident or illness and she didn't want to explain a dead DA, possibly to a husband.

 

[SeekingJana]

PEF could have said, **Get out of my house, and don't take my car.** She was probably worse off financially until he was declared dead, so a hit does not make too much sense.

A cuckold is possible, but a bit unlikely. Why didn't the hypothetical husband kill his wife, especially if she was present. If her lover died, would she trust her husband knowing that her lover mysteriously vanished and that he might have done it?

I have considered the possibility that he met a woman and had a lover's quarrel that escalated into her hitting or pushing him. Also that RFG was with a woman and that there was accident or illness and she didn't want to explain a dead DA, possibly to a husband.

You know the area and the type of people who lived there 21 years ago.
Was it violent? Was it a hangout for sexual trysts? Some places are known as dangerous or bad, and they don't have to be a large town or city.
People in the area know what to expect after dark in a bar or the like if they go cruising there.

But, he wasn't cruising as far as we know, not there, anyway, and he wasn't looking for trouble when he drove to an area of antique vendors he liked for a lazy afternoon, even if that was a cover story all along.
IMO, Lewisburg was for meeting up and leave-taking. It was the equivalent of staging post- crime, except we have no evidence at all of any crime.

Two things seem important to me: The fact that he printed out a map to the area including Lewisburg ( found in his office) The fact that he was seen with a woman on the 15th and was likely seen in Lewisburg on the 16th and out of the town, seen elsewhere for over a week.
I do not think ALL those witnesses were mistaken. Some, of course. Eyewitness accounts of a stranger sighting have low percentages of fact. But, IMO, at some point, a few of them heading in the same direction have to be considered as probably valid sightings.

He may well be deceased now, but I believe he was leaving Bellefonte his way, on his terms, with no fanfare or tears, skipping the possibly embarrassing retirement party, and making a new life for himself while there was time. His daughter was grown, his lover and he just weren't all that any longer. He had no reason to stay except for his full retirement pension, which we think he made other arrangements concerning.

I can think of a hundred possible reasons to leave, but all but " leaving permanently with money and a plan" involve a very poor and likely short lifestyle.

RFG was a District Attorney, not a desperado!

 

[DeDee]

I'm having trouble reconciling the report of the mystery woman bring seen with Ray at the SOS in Lewisburg because Ray also took Patty to the same place on occasions. Why would he chance humiliating her in such a blatant manner?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped only for brevity.

You know the area and the type of people who lived there 21 years ago.
Was it violent? Was it a hangout for sexual trysts? Some places are known as dangerous or bad, and they don't have to be a large town or city.
People in the area know what to expect after dark in a bar or the like if they go cruising there.

But, he wasn't cruising as far as we know, not there, anyway, and he wasn't looking for trouble when he drove to an area of antique vendors he liked for a lazy afternoon, even if that was a cover story all along.
IMO, Lewisburg was for meeting up and leave-taking. It was the equivalent of staging post- crime, except we have no evidence at all of any crime.

It would be much more likely to cruise in State College. More bars, and more young ladies. The Street of Shops does not appear to be dangerous. It is also not a particularly good place for a tryst. The restaurant is a 50's style diner, not particularly romantic. There is no motel in the immediate area.

It would be possible to meet someone there and go to a motel or a vacation house, which could be remote.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm having trouble reconciling the report of the mystery woman bring seen with Ray at the SOS in Lewisburg because Ray also took Patty to the same place on occasions. Why would he chance humiliating her in such a blatant manner?

The SoS is a shopping area, not a place for social or romantic interaction as such. It wouldn't necessarily be thought of as unusual for two people, not romantically linked, to be there. Nobody there would have known if he with that other person on a regular basis. Further, if this was a romantic encounter, it would have been unlikely PEF would have found out about it, assuming that RFG came home.

The only way that PEF would find out is if someone who knew both of them would run into him in Lewisburg. It was 50 miles from Bellefonte, so that was unlikely.

 

[DeDee]

The SoS is a shopping area, not a place for social or romantic interaction as such. It wouldn't necessarily be thought of as unusual for two people, not romantically linked, to be there. Nobody there would have known if he with that other person on a regular basis. Further, if this was a romantic encounter, it would have been unlikely PEF would have found out about it, assuming that RFG came home.

The only way that PEF would find out is if someone who knew both of them would run into him in Lewisburg. It was 50 miles from Bellefonte, so that was unlikely.

Yes, I once posted on this case many years ago. I'm having to reacquaint myself with details. IE., I viewed this vid of the vast amount of shops but surely don't know if it looked the same then as now.

One description of Ray with the mystery lady at the SOS was described as them going their separate way down aisles for a while then perhaps meet up again at another vendors' location. If there is a mystery woman then I still don't think they planned an encounter nor were they already friends. It's more a matter of them both being at the same location and casually chatting about items of interest when they saw one another.

It's too bad this tidbit of information became public because it only seemed to hurt Patty's feelings and served no other purpose since LE wasn't able to track her down. I'd prefer her to be called a tourist than a mystery lady because that's what I think she was.

Then again, she could have been the reason for Ray's travel to Lewisburg. The reason I don't think she was is because he was so occupied with tossing his laptop and hard drive. That hard drive looked as if someone first took a rock and crushed it.

 

[minazoe]

in someways this case reminds me of some other strange deaths .

the Hotel Cecile case and the case Elisa Lam and another where a rather important man seems to go on an odyssey, wandering buildings, losing things along the way and winding up dead in a dumpster. I can"t remember his name offhand..

I wonder if we would be wondering the same about them had they never turned up dead.

we see him acting mildly erratically , as he is works odd hours, sleeps, slams the door, drives erratically, takes an excursion, is seen wandering stores.

what can we learn?

mOO

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped only for brevity.



It would be much more likely to cruise in State College. More bars, and more young ladies. The Street of Shops does not appear to be dangerous. It is also not a particularly good place for a tryst. The restaurant is a 50's style diner, not particularly romantic. There is no motel in the immediate area.

It would be possible to meet someone there and go to a motel or a vacation house, which could be remote.

Thank you so much, J. That's the best overall description of Lewisburg ever. I agree with you about State College, and all college cities.

I believe Ray was NOT hiding at all. He was seen in the SOS, in the park, in the Packwood House. It was the opposite, like he wanted to be seen in Lewisburg. If I'd been a detective, I'd have looked more at his visibility. One thing an almost- public presence leads me to is being SEEN EVERYWHERE, then deliberately DISAPPEARING. That's almost like the old " Magic Acts". You want to be seen alive and well until the very moment you drab things way down and head out of town, leaving the pretty car that was probably really liked a lot behind.

He also could have been waiting for the lady he was seen with and making his presence more visible outside a car which might have been too hot for him to sit in the sun, IDK. His car was, in 2005, almost a bulls- eye target. Something we need to remember more, now that they are so common in most areas of the country.

Maybe he bought his Mini Cooper and former sports car with disappearing via a helper in mind. I've been thinking about this for some time. " Do what they ( the police) would not expect" since friends have said he made statements to the effect that he liked to outwit the police in a major way. It was a game to him.
Maybe he had really liked the " spy" TV shows of the 60's and turned what they did around in some parts, and used what they did in other areas. It would be natural to do so if someone were planning a once in a lifetime getaway to never return. I just hope he didn't have to use much out of " Robinson Crusoe". Maybe luck was with him and he went to his own " Treasure Island".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

in someways this case reminds me of some other strange deaths .

the Hotel Cecile case and the case Elisa Lam and another where a rather important man seems to go on an odyssey, wandering buildings, losing things along the way and winding up dead in a dumpster. I can"t remember his name offhand..

I wonder if we would be wondering the same about them had they never turned up dead.

we see him acting mildly erratically , as he is works odd hours, sleeps, slams the door, drives erratically, takes an excursion, is seen wandering stores.

what can we learn?

mOO

John Wheeler, in Delaware.

I've been told that it wasn't unusual for RFG to work late. He wasn't erratic as such, but that he seem unfocused. The drive, including the speed, was normal.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you so much, J. That's the best overall description of Lewisburg ever. I agree with you about State College, and all college cities.

I believe Ray was NOT hiding at all. He was seen in the SOS, in the park, in the Packwood House. It was the opposite, like he wanted to be seen in Lewisburg. If I'd been a detective, I'd have looked more at his visibility. One thing an almost- public presence leads me to is being SEEN EVERYWHERE, then deliberately DISAPPEARING. That's almost like the old " Magic Acts". You want to be seen alive and well until the very moment you drab things way down and head out of town, leaving the pretty car that was probably really liked a lot behind.

He also could have been waiting for the lady he was seen with and making his presence more visible outside a car which might have been too hot for him to sit in the sun, IDK. His car was, in 2005, almost a bulls- eye target. Something we need to remember more, now that they are so common in most areas of the country.

Maybe he bought his Mini Cooper and former sports car with disappearing via a helper in mind. I've been thinking about this for some time. " Do what they ( the police) would not expect" since friends have said he made statements to the effect that he liked to outwit the police in a major way. It was a game to him.
Maybe he had really liked the " spy" TV shows of the 60's and turned what they did around in some parts, and used what they did in other areas. It would be natural to do so if someone were planning a once in a lifetime getaway to never return. I just hope he didn't have to use much out of " Robinson Crusoe". Maybe luck was with him and he went to his own " Treasure Island".

This is a real possibility. Couple that with going to a place outside of J-A-SC media market and it looks like it was an attempt to deliberately misdirect.

 

[SeekingJana]

This is a real possibility. Couple that with going to a place outside of J-A-SC media market and it looks like it was an attempt to deliberately misdirect.

You know I agree with you 100%!!

 

[DeDee]

in someways this case reminds me of some other strange deaths .

the Hotel Cecile case and the case Elisa Lam and another where a rather important man seems to go on an odyssey, wandering buildings, losing things along the way and winding up dead in a dumpster. I can"t remember his name offhand..

I wonder if we would be wondering the same about them had they never turned up dead.

we see him acting mildly erratically , as he is works odd hours, sleeps, slams the door, drives erratically, takes an excursion, is seen wandering stores.

what can we learn?

mOO

Imagine the work load for the DA in that particular area. It seems the almost 50,000 students enrolled at Penn State may burden the court's calendar. The female manager at the Cecil Hotel wasn't bothered by the 80+ deaths that occurred during her employment there.

JJ published a list of multiple occasions that depict Gricar's odd behavior beginning on March 8, 2005. When I first read the incidents, I wondered if Ray may have suffered a stroke or had early onset Dementia.

Mr. Gricar wasn't alert, appeared unfocused and agitated. He stared out the window. He mumbled responses and was uable to answer simple questions adequately. He was sleeping more than usual. I also recall reading he lost his last court trial on a manslaughter charge.

Ray may have had an undiagnosed illness such as Lewy Body Dementia. My sister is in her 50s and has each of those symptoms+. She was placed in an assisted living facility in January due to Lewy Body. It's the brain disease Robin Williams also suffered. Special tests are required for a LBD diagnosis. Ray wouldn't see a Dr when Patty urged him to do so.

It seems whatever was wrong, Ray's condition was deteriorating. Why would this brilliant man need a printed copy of a map of Lewisburg?

Post #121 Thread #15 From 2016:

Numerous people noticed that RFG had a change in his demeanor. This is the time line on it.

PA - PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

 

[minazoe]

I dunno j.j. , I feel like Ray was acting somewhat erratic.. the door slam, late night night at office, the hard drive destruction searches, sleeping late and going on a day trip with that laptop..killing the hard drive where he could be seen doing it....chatting up a woman in a store..moving his vehicle around.possibly smoking a cig..the sheer lack of any other evidence about Ray..

could the cig ash have been a personal message to someone?

The whole subject of Ray drives me mad!!!!!

mOO

 

[DeDee]

Weather for April 15, 2005
From Airport in Montoursville, PA 30 miles N of Lewisburg
Moon: waxing crescent (sliver of the moon shining)
High of 62 degrees with frequent wind gusts

Montoursville, PA Weather History | Weather Underground