Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #177

[susiQ]

Whatever they recovered from the SW must be pretty damning to RA and their case. R&B have now filed 3 memos in support of a Frank's hearing. We want, we want, and we want again. If they are so sure of RA's innocence why are they obsessed with getting a Franks hearing when they have been denied 2 times already? There has to be something seriously incriminating there that they don't want to come to light.

Is there a limit or can they just keep wasting their time and the Court's time filing these frivolous Motions in an effort to detract and deter from their own Contempt hearing and the trial that they filed a speedy motion for and Judge Gull granted????

It's another pathetic attempt and I can literally 'feel' the desperation coming off of it. Judge Gull ruled against them twice and it looks like it's going to take 3 times for them to understand. That was not her findings no matter how many times or how many ways they try and state it. She can deny their Motion without a hearing as is her right, they cannot force her to change her mind or give them reasons stating why/how she came to that conclusion.

Why is this so hard for the Defense to understand? It's because there is something there that can't let come to light. IMO

All MOO

My question would be, if there is something SO damning that PROVES RA is guilty, why go to all this trouble. Just go to trial and let the chips fall where they may. They could be making more money on their other cases. It appears many in this discussion believe they are THAT unethical anyways. JMO.

It also appears to me, it doesn’t matter what the D undertakes they are “devils” seeking to subvert justice for two innocent girls and their families that died a most horrific death!

I just don’t believe THAT!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The defense never wanted a speedy trial.
The defense is going to file a new Frank’s motion every time they feel the need to flex their creative writing skills.
The defense does not care about justice.
The defense does not care about Libby and Abby.
The defense does not care about RA.
The defense is making a mockery of and abusing our judicial system.
This case will never go to trial as things stand now.
The defense who is totally responsible for this clown show needs to be dismissed from this case immediately by the same SCOIN that stupidly and cowardly allowed them back on this case. SCION did that to get the case back on track and headed to trial. How’s that working out?
The prosecution needs to be also removed from the case simply because it just cannot continue with no one trusting each other. Professional behavior simply does not exist in this case. It began with the defense and now permeates everything.
The judge needs to be removed also. She is the least culpable in this case’s descent into h*ll but there is no trust by anybody on anything.
SCOIN needs to clean house, appoint a new judge, new prosecutor and a new defense team for RA. Set the trial date exactly one year out and say the trial will start on this date. The judge needs to have no other cases before them so they can rule quickly on motions and hearings can be scheduled without delay.
This has just got to stop, friends. Whether you are pro-RA or anti-RA this is a joke right now. Abby and Libby and RA deserve better. The defense, the prosecution, and the judge have turned this into a three way personal grudge and forgotten about who they are representing. It is a giant p*ssing contest and it is pathetic.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Does it feel to anyone else that defense is trying to argue in these motions stuff that should be made to a jury? They're working so hard to promote their theories of the crime, rather than the usual stuff I'd expect at this stage.

MOO

Absolutely, just like they did with the first Memo in support of Franks. They are naming names and giving specific information on the case which should be filed under seal. It's a game to be won now to them IMO as they've been called on the carpet for their misconduct. Regardless of the damage to the case, trial or the victims and their families.

I have a feeling Monday is going to bring some tough reality to the Defense.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Does it feel to anyone else that defense is trying to argue in these motions stuff that should be made to a jury? They're working so hard to promote their theories of the crime, rather than the usual stuff I'd expect at this stage.

MOO

Yes.
They have been trying this case in public ever since they promised JG they had no intention of trying this case in public.

 

[girlhasnoname]

My question would be, if there is something SO damning that PROVES RA is guilty, why go to all this trouble. Just go to trial and let the chips fall where they may. They could be making more money on their other cases. It appears many in this discussion believe they are THAT unethical anyways. JMO.

It also appears to me, it doesn’t matter what the D undertakes they are “devils” seeking to subvert justice for two innocent girls and their families that died a most horrific death!

I just don’t believe THAT!

Because if 'it' proves RA's guilt they'll look the incompetent lawyers like they've been accused of being from the beginning. They can't afford to lose this case personally or professionally, their careers and reputations are on the line now that they've made such grandiose and accusatory statements that they just can't seem to back up.

Pride goeth before the fall as they say, but it shouldn't go before justice for Abby & Libby.

MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

from Hennessey's VERIFIED EMERGENCY MOTION FOR CONTINUANCE

12. On March 13, 2024, Mr. McLeland indicated he would try to get the screenshots if
they exist” “when he had time”. That is nice but not very helpful at this point.

13. First Sergeant Holeman seems to believe if there are recordings or documents or
people he doesn’t consider important to his theory it and they do not need to be provided.

17. In Ramirez v. State, 186 N.E.3d 89 (Ind. 2022) the Indiana Supreme Court, on
transfer, reversed the denial of a continuance by this very Court when counsel specifically
identified the late discovery of interviews and new allegations, the effect upon counsel’s theory
and preparation and what counsel needed to do further due to the late discovery. That is exactly
this case.

JMHO: Nick, Holeman, Gull. OUCH, OUCH, and OUCH

like a knife cutting through the summer butter. moo.

 

[Ravenmoon]

My question would be, if there is something SO damning that PROVES RA is guilty, why go to all this trouble. Just go to trial and let the chips fall where they may. They could be making more money on their other cases. It appears many in this discussion believe they are THAT unethical anyways. JMO.

It also appears to me, it doesn’t matter what the D undertakes they are “devils” seeking to subvert justice for two innocent girls and their families that died a most horrific death!

I just don’t believe THAT!

FWIW,

They are not supposed to sit back and accept the guilt of their client, but the theater and constant frenzy of filings is desperation from the eyes and hearts of many of our perspectives.

I personally see the Defense as wrapped up in a moment that is opening the door to money and fame.
If they can pull this off ( getting RA acquitted) they will be bigger than Jose Baez and Johnny Cochran.

Even if they lose at this point, they will get book deals, Netflix deals, etc.

The money they get will be much more than we imagine.

IMO, that does qualify as evil because they are willing to allow the families to be subject to weekly opening of new wounds and an endless circle of confusion and setbacks.


JMO

 

[photographer4]

The defense never wanted a speedy trial.
The defense is going to file a new Frank’s motion every time they feel the need to flex their creative writing skills.
The defense does not care about justice.
The defense does not care about Libby and Abby.
The defense does not care about RA.
The defense is making a mockery of and abusing our judicial system.
This case will never go to trial as things stand now.
The defense who is totally responsible for this clown show needs to be dismissed from this case immediately by the same SCOIN that stupidly and cowardly allowed them back on this case. SCION did that to get the case back on track and headed to trial. How’s that working out?
The prosecution needs to be also removed from the case simply because it just cannot continue with no one trusting each other. Professional behavior simply does not exist in this case. It began with the defense and now permeates everything.
The judge needs to be removed also. She is the least culpable in this case’s descent into h*ll but there is no trust by anybody on anything.
SCOIN needs to clean house, appoint a new judge, new prosecutor and a new defense team for RA. Set the trial date exactly one year out and say the trial will start on this date. The judge needs to have no other cases before them so they can rule quickly on motions and hearings can be scheduled without delay.
This has just got to stop, friends. Whether you are pro-RA or anti-RA this is a joke right now. Abby and Libby and RA deserve better. The defense, the prosecution, and the judge have turned this into a three way personal grudge and forgotten about who they are representing. It is a giant p*ssing contest and it is pathetic.

I agree that there is no professional trust among any of the legal players. It’s a mess and even if they secure a guilty verdict I suspect appeals will be ongoing for years to come.

I’ve said this before and it’s not a popular opinion but the trial isn’t about the murdered kids. It’s just not. It’s about the accused and proving he did or didn’t do it and then about what happens next to him as a result of the outcome.

There is no justice for the dead. There is no justice for the loved ones left behind.

 

[girlhasnoname]

So, the defense is saying the search warrant wouldn’t have been signed off if Diener knew other phones were around. If that were true, any murderer who turned off their phone - where others were within geofence distance - would get away with their crime.

Has the defense forgotten that RA admitted to being on the bridge?

I truly think they are so desperate right now and will say anything to keep that SW out. If they are so convinced of RA's innocence like they've been saying from the first Press Release after they came on board, just go to trial and prove it fellas, why would you be so afraid or care of the SW results? You filed for MST and it was granted, let's go.

They want the SW tossed because it has extremely incriminating evidence against RA IMO. If RA is found guilty, his lawyers will be fighting for years to come. Will RA be appointed an appellate lawyer for free? If not, can he afford someone to do the appellate process or maybe find someone to work pro bono, perhaps CW? She loves the attention this case is bringing or maybe BM? I definitely don't see R&B continuing on after a guilty conviction of RA if it happens.

MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

Back and Forth and Backwards.

The Defense and the State can and will continue to speak through their pre-trial motions in this case, which will be available to the public on the docket. Either side is free to counter the other side's motions. And vice-versa.

The public is guaranteed transparency on any process adjudicated in the nation's courts.
This is the process. These are the constitutional rights, the laws, and the fair and equal and unbiased representation guaranteed to all US citizens.

The fierce battle we're seeing in this case does nothing to diminish the pain of any of the families affected by these proceedings. IMO, neither does any potential mistrial, dismissal nor the appellate process(es) looming over this case.

There is one person (The Judge) in charge of maintaining order and protecting fair process and rights in the Court and sharing with the public, victims families, and the defendant their considered judicial deliberations behind their findings and rulings.

IMO, the Court here is not managing to meet the moment, and/or has overstepped ... potentially in favor of over-protecting the case from the public. The Court never provides their deliberations and rulings and citations of the laws that inform her decisions. Unfortunately, the Court's stance has proven that darkness doesn't protect, but encourages bad actors to insert themselves, to bubble and meddle and hijack timely justice.

MOO, The hearings should be streamed/televised for the public. Especially for the citizens of Delphi, Indiana, who are entitled to understand what the heck went wrong with this extrapolated five-year investigation of this brutal double murder, and which elected official's poor judgement (if any) caused this hot mess.

JMHO

 

[TL4S]

Rereading today's Franks...the three phones are frustrating. One was within 100 yards of the CS region right around the time of the murders, and the other two were around the CS between 12:30ish and 4:30ish. That's not very specific. And it's also not specific if any of those three phones is L's, or if these are three totally unique individuals from the victims.

Based on what's written, how do I know that the one phone that is around the CS during the crime isn't L's? What if one is there well before 2:13? Would that even be pertinent if they could have left before the abduction? What about the third one? There's just no meaningful details regarding these phones. Is it this missing information that the D is requesting from the State? Because I think that's a fair ask, if so. Surely LE ran down these numbers, and if they were unable to identify the owners, that should still be part of the discovery. Or, does the D have some of this information and just not writing it within the memo? I'm confused.

ETA: Way back when, R Ives talked about this very thing. He never said if they did a geofence, but he was talking about the difficulty in phone dumps due to laws. He said something about not being able to do this without probable cause for each person or phone. I wonder if this has something to do with there seemingly not being information on these numbers???

 

[Emma Peel]

Do you, or anyone for that matter, have a link to the doc? I prefer an actual copy as ofttimes they are searchable. I can't search a SS for text. Wish I could! I gave up trying to find one myself so hoping someone has it handy. TIA!

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase
Case number: 08C01-2210-MR-000001
newest entries at the end

 

[twall]

03/14/2024	Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Jeff Wehe [sic] (WANE 15) and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/07/2024
03/14/2024	Administrative Event Adm entry dated 3/14/2024 re: order Issuing warrant for arrest made in error
03/14/2024	Order Issued Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Jeff Wehe [sic] (WANE 15) and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Order Issued Ex parte communication received from Frank Wesseling and ordered copied and sent to counsel of record and the Clerk of Carroll Circuit Court for filing. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Motion Filed 3rd Request for Medical Health Records.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Motion Filed 4th Request for Mental Health Records.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 03/14/2024

 

[mrjitty]

Not necessarily. Prosecution doesn't put all the evidence in the PCA, only enough to meet requirements.

Agreed - but i think it is a fairly safe inference if they had that data exactly, they would have put it in their rather than establishing the timing only from all the other data points.

 

[mrjitty]

Well stated! Sorry, I didn’t mean to leave anyone with a wrong impression but in my haste I see I probably did exactly that.

You’d think that if RA’s phone could show he was not within 60-100y of the area in question that would be something they’d be screaming about, no?

Yes.

I've been saying for some months his phone is either off, at home (or similar) or they have no data for it.

But given the arrest, I am sure they would have got at least some historical data for his activity that day

 

[GoBuckeyes]

The defense never wanted a speedy trial.
The defense is going to file a new Frank’s motion every time they feel the need to flex their creative writing skills.
The defense does not care about justice.
The defense does not care about Libby and Abby.
The defense does not care about RA.
The defense is making a mockery of and abusing our judicial system.
This case will never go to trial as things stand now.
The defense who is totally responsible for this clown show needs to be dismissed from this case immediately by the same SCOIN that stupidly and cowardly allowed them back on this case. SCION did that to get the case back on track and headed to trial. How’s that working out?
The prosecution needs to be also removed from the case simply because it just cannot continue with no one trusting each other. Professional behavior simply does not exist in this case. It began with the defense and now permeates everything.
The judge needs to be removed also. She is the least culpable in this case’s descent into h*ll but there is no trust by anybody on anything.
SCOIN needs to clean house, appoint a new judge, new prosecutor and a new defense team for RA. Set the trial date exactly one year out and say the trial will start on this date. The judge needs to have no other cases before them so they can rule quickly on motions and hearings can be scheduled without delay.
This has just got to stop, friends. Whether you are pro-RA or anti-RA this is a joke right now. Abby and Libby and RA deserve better. The defense, the prosecution, and the judge have turned this into a three way personal grudge and forgotten about who they are representing. It is a giant p*ssing contest and it is pathetic.

Are each of these statements your opinion only, or is there some factual document of which I'm unaware?

 

[steeltowngirl]

03/14/2024	Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Jeff Wehe [sic] (WANE 15) and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/07/2024
03/14/2024	Administrative Event Adm entry dated 3/14/2024 re: order Issuing warrant for arrest made in error
03/14/2024	Order Issued Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Jeff Wehe [sic] (WANE 15) and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Order Issued Ex parte communication received from Frank Wesseling and ordered copied and sent to counsel of record and the Clerk of Carroll Circuit Court for filing. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Motion Filed 3rd Request for Medical Health Records.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Motion Filed 4th Request for Mental Health Records.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 03/14/2024

Holy heck, I almost fell over when I read “warrant for arrest”. I thought they caught others. Whew. It was an error in the admin at court.

 

[mrjitty]

Rereading today's Franks...the three phones are frustrating. One was within 100 yards of the CS region right around the time of the murders, and the other two were around the CS between 12:30ish and 4:30ish. That's not very specific. And it's also not specific if any of those three phones is L's, or if these are three totally unique individuals from the victims.

Based on what's written, how do I know that the one phone that is around the CS during the crime isn't L's? What if one is there well before 2:13? Would that even be pertinent if they could have left before the abduction? What about the third one? There's just no meaningful details regarding these phones. Is it this missing information that the D is requesting from the State? Because I think that's a fair ask, if so. Surely LE ran down these numbers, and if they were unable to identify the owners, that should still be part of the discovery. Or, does the D have some of this information and just not writing it within the memo? I'm confused.

ETA: Way back when, R Ives talked about this very thing. He never said if they did a geofence, but he was talking about the difficulty in phone dumps due to laws. He said something about not being able to do this without probable cause for each person or phone. I wonder if this has something to do with there seemingly not being information on these numbers???

This is why it will be best to wait for the trial and see what is going to be exhibited. It varies state to state as to what can be got from the phone company when you are in the early phase and don't have PC on anyone in particular.

And then when they arrested RA and do have PC, but if his phone was never at the crime scene, ....

It was reasonable to assume they have some kind of tower dump - which we now know they do have, but I think you can drive yourself crazy trying to reverse engineer it based on cryptic motions

There will likely be a CAST report by the FBI agent or similar.

 

[Ravenmoon]

03/14/2024	Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Jeff Wehe [sic] (WANE 15) and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/07/2024
03/14/2024	Administrative Event Adm entry dated 3/14/2024 re: order Issuing warrant for arrest made in error
03/14/2024	Order Issued Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Jeff Wehe [sic] (WANE 15) and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Order Issued Ex parte communication received from Frank Wesseling and ordered copied and sent to counsel of record and the Clerk of Carroll Circuit Court for filing. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Motion Filed 3rd Request for Medical Health Records.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 03/14/2024
03/14/2024	Motion Filed 4th Request for Mental Health Records.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 03/14/2024

Did something change?
2 requests for the mental health records?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Holy heck, I almost fell over when I read “warrant for arrest”. I thought they caught others. Whew. It was an error in the admin at court.

This thread can scare you like that for sure. You never know what may happen in any given moment, read at your own health risk. LOL