NY - Twins, boy and girl, 5, found dead in Bronx apartment, no signs of obvious trauma, Mount Hope, 18 Dec 2023

[ChatteringBirds]

That was unexpected! I actually gasped. I wonder if one twin suffocated from illness and she lost it and smothered the other one so he/she wouldn't be a surviving twin. That's the best benefit of the doubt I can provide and it ain't much. Poor babies.

No one thinks, Oh, I lost one of my children, so let's also get rid of the other one. No one.

But my benefit of the doubt is to at least ask if the suffocation could have been unintentional or unforeseeable to her. But in the cases I can think of, it's clear what happened, and the parent doesn't pretend not to know. (For example, children hiding in a heavy wooden chest they couldn't open while playing.)

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Is it possible that the illness/poisoning/whatever it was produced so much mucus that it actually prevented breathing? Built up or came up from a cough and then they couldn't get a breath? Wouldn't such a "blocked throat" death be considered suffocation?

I know it's probable that there is some actual evidence of homicide, given that LE has classified it as such. But a part of my brain keeps thinking it's possible it was just a tragedy.

MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

Is it possible that the illness/poisoning/whatever it was produced so much mucus that it actually prevented breathing? Built up or came up from a cough and then they couldn't get a breath? Wouldn't such a "blocked throat" death be considered suffocation?

I know it's probable that there is some actual evidence of homicide, given that LE has classified it as such. But a part of my brain keeps thinking it's possible it was just a tragedy.

MOO

I am far from an expert on this subject. But it's my understanding that "smothering" (the term used in the announcement) refers specifically to the use of an external object/force that stops breathing, not an internal blockage. I do agree though both deaths probably would not have been classified as homicides if there wasn't evidence of homicide vs. natural causes. And if the children did have blocked throats from mucus, it seems that would have been apparent on autopsy. I'd also think the chances of both children dying close to the same time from a mucus blockage is close to zero. Of course, even if it truly is homicide, that may not mean intentional murder. I guess it's possible the mother was trying to treat the children with some home remedy that went horribly wrong. But never taking the kids to a doctor or to the ER where no one can be turned away? They had been sick quite awhile.
MOO

 

[MsMarple]

Is it possible that the illness/poisoning/whatever it was produced so much mucus that it actually prevented breathing? Built up or came up from a cough and then they couldn't get a breath? Wouldn't such a "blocked throat" death be considered suffocation?

I know it's probable that there is some actual evidence of homicide, given that LE has classified it as such. But a part of my brain keeps thinking it's possible it was just a tragedy.

MOO

I don’t know, wouldn’t the ME see evidence of mucus in their throats? I wonder what evidence he found that prompted him to declare a homicide rather than accidental or undetermined. That’s a serious conclusion.

Maybe mother was overwhelmed from taking care of two ill children who also had special needs. And a husband who was absent during the week put prime responsibility on her.

I can understand the stress but IF she smothered her kids it’s unforgivable, especially since their neighbors seem like kind people who would have helped her.

 

[IDK]

The fact that the mother hadn’t taken the twins to the doctor despite all their recent health concerns, the second one being recently diagnosed with special needs, and both dying at the same time were all red flags to me.
Very tragic.

 

[Pseudonymph]

BBM
I find that exceedingly unlikely.
MOO

Edited to add: I misunderstood the bolded bit, thinking you meant one twin decided to smother the other one while suffocating so that neither would survive.

The way you meant I really don't find believable either. If the mother had 'lost it' to that extent, she wouldn't have been thinking anything logical-in-her-mind (though irrational to us) about a surviving twin. She would have been overwhelmed in her emotions, maybe completely ignoring the surviving twin, but not actively killing him/her. I know people react differently under stress but under fight/flight/freeze I don't see attacking an additional child so he/she won't be alone w/o his/her twin.
All MOO.

It is super unlikely, just the only thing I could think of.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe Mom had her own 'mental breakdown' ---two kids that were sick for awhile, had special needs, and the daughter had begun splitting and biting. So things might have been rough at home---and Dad had to work away from home a lot, so it was all on her. Money was probably tight. Things were stressful.

And they were recent immigrants and she probably didn't feel she had a close community that could support her during this overwhelming time. It might have just been too much for her if she had sick kids home from school, not sleeping at night then fussing all day, and she was not sleeping much either perhaps?

 

[ChatteringBirds]

If the dad had done it, would people be providing all of this sympathy for what's now been called homicide? I don't understand.

Also the children were being evaluated, and papa worked in the medical field, so they did have access to resources.

 

[Shamrock1]

If the dad had done it, would people be providing all of this sympathy for what's now been called homicide? I don't understand.

Also the children were being evaluated, and papa worked in the medical field, so they did have access to resources.

Home health aides - particularly those who work overnight and those who are recent immigrants - are frequent victims of wage theft and labor violations. NPR did an extensive piece on this. I wouldn’t assume that he’s a medical professional with robust access to resources. JMO.

 

[IDK]

Home health aides - particularly those who work overnight and those who are recent immigrants - are frequent victims of wage theft and labor violations. NPR did an extensive piece on this. I wouldn’t assume that he’s a medical professional with robust access to resources. JMO.

There are many low paid nurse’s aides and medical assistants in the US— some work directly for facilities and private corporations, others are private pay. I don’t think we know for sure what his employment situation is. It’s very sad he was not able to take time from work to make sure his wife took George and Gianna to the pediatrician’s office or ER.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

It’s very sad he was not able to take time from work to make sure his wife took George and Gianna to the pediatrician’s office or ER.

But if they did ultimately pass away from suffocation, what difference would her taking them to a doctor have made?

 

[Laughing]

But if they did ultimately pass away from suffocation, what difference would her taking them to a doctor have made?

Some of us imho see essentially 2 options -- medical treatment, or death.

And, hopefully medical staff would have listened closely to Mom to see how/if she was coping with 2 sick, possibly special needs, kids in a new country.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[NCWatcher]

But if they did ultimately pass away from suffocation, what difference would her taking them to a doctor have made?

It wasn't my post but I can think of several possibilities. As I've posted before though, I'm not sure that smothering = suffocation. I think smothering, the term used in the official announcement, implies the use of external force to cause suffocation & there are other ways suffocation can happen. But regardless, while the scenarios listed below may not be terribly likely, they are not impossible IMO at least given what little we now know.

1) IF the mother caused the children's deaths because she reached a breaking point after dealing with two sick children for a very long time, if they had been treated for their illnesses and had been able to go back to school, she might not have reached a breaking point. I'm especially concerned the mother apparently used the term "irrational" to describe some of the girl's behaviors. Maybe she was quoting a term school personnel used, but how rational are 5-year old children ever expected to be?

2) IF the mother caused the children's deaths by using a "home remedy" that was intended to treat their symptoms, that might not have happened had they seen a doctor days or weeks before.

3) It's possible a different pathologist could find the children weren't smothered, that the manner of death was not homicide, that there were internal causes for the suffocation-- mucus plugs, for example. That likely wouldn't have happened had the children seen a doctor weeks before.

4) It's possible a physician treating the children would have had concerns about the mother's mental health.

We don't know how long the family had been in the US. Some articles say the mother was fully engaged with the children's school and their medical care.

N.Y.C. Twins, 5, Were Smothered to Death, Officials Say, Months After Deaths Were Believed to Be 'Medical Tragedy'

The twins had been sick before they were found dead, say police

people.com

I'm not convinced that's necessarily true but an additional contact with the medical community might have provided access to resources she was lacking.
MOO

 

[IDK]

But if they did ultimately pass away from suffocation, what difference would her taking them to a doctor have made?

You’re absolutely correct— I guess I meant that the mom may have been stressed caring for 2 sick kids which may have contributed to the deaths. Just a thought.

Edited to add— thanks Laughing and ncwatcher for helping explain what I meant!

 

[musicaljoke]

It seems to me that the evidence of homicidal smothering might not suggest an open and shut case. From the article linked below:

"The twins’ deaths had puzzled the authorities for nearly three months. The police saw no visible signs of trauma on their bodies, nor did officers find any weapons or narcotics in the family’s sixth-floor apartment on East 175th Street near Monroe Avenue in the Mount Hope neighborhood.

"Initial autopsies were performed, but they required further study, according to Ms. Bolcer. The medical examiner has not specified what those studies were, though certain tests, including toxicology, neuropathology and histology — a close examination of tissue — often take longer to return results."

5-Year-Old Twins Found Dead in the Bronx Were Smothered, Official Says

The medical examiner’s office ruled that the deaths of the boy and girl, who were found lifeless in their mother’s bed in December, were homicides. No arrests have been made.

www.nytimes.com

 

[katydid23]

Since they all slept together, could Mom have rolled over on them in her sleep?

 

[NCWatcher]

Since they all slept together, could Mom have rolled over on them in her sleep?

Maybe. But they were 5 years old, not 5 months old. And how could she roll over on both of them? I guess it could happen but seems very unlikely to me.
MOO

 

[Shamrock1]

Could be that the child was weak from a respiratory issue and was accidentally smothered by heavy bedding, the mother, or both. And perhaps there was a (folk?) medication or two on top, like NyQuil. It wouldn’t need to be the mother literally rolling on top - just the child’s nose/mouth being blocked.

Times two, of course.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe. But they were 5 years old, not 5 months old. And how could she roll over on both of them? I guess it could happen but seems very unlikely to me.
MOO

It would be unusual---but 5 year olds do odd things sometimes. When I babysit my granddaughter overnight I always go check on her because she burrows under her blankets sometimes, and once I found her with her pillow on top of her face----she said ot felt nice and soft....

I had to explain it was blocking her air way and she was about 4 or 5 I think....but I was just wondering if maybe they were all dosed up on nyquil or Tylenol----and they were huddled together, in a sound sleep.

Could mom have rolled over and been accidentally covering their heads with her pillow or her body?

 

[NCWatcher]

It would be unusual---but 5 year olds do odd things sometimes. When I babysit my granddaughter overnight I always go check on her because she burrows under her blankets sometimes, and once I found her with her pillow on top of her face----she said ot felt nice and soft....

I had to explain it was blocking her air way and she was about 4 or 5 I think....but I was just wondering if maybe they were all dosed up on nyquil or Tylenol----and they were huddled together, in a sound sleep.

Could mom have rolled over and been accidentally covering their heads with her pillow or her body?

I guess something like that is possible. But unless we are told the autopsy showed the children had been given doses of a medicine that either induced sleep or made heavy sleep more likely, it's hard for me to believe that's what happened. Again, they were 5 years old and so not tiny (although admittedly we don't know mom's size.) And, they'd been sick awhile before they died on Dec 18 ... I think the boy had been out of school sick since Nov 30 (!) And supposedly they always slept with mom. So the chances they'd both die the same night from being rolled over on by mom or from sleeping under mom's heavy covers... seems very unlikely to me. Not impossible, just very unlikely.

The only thing that makes me consider that maybe something like that could have happened is that some published reports have said mom last tended to the children at 5 am & when she woke up at 11:20 am they were unresponsive (and some reports say the children were already "cold and stiff" suggesting they had been dead for hours)

5-Year-Old Twins Found Dead in the Bronx Were Smothered, Official Says

The medical examiner’s office ruled that the deaths of the boy and girl, who were found lifeless in their mother’s bed in December, were homicides. No arrests have been made.

www.nytimes.com

If despite having sick kids mom slept for 6 1/2 hours straight, sleeping until mid-day AND she slept in on a day some reports say she was going to take the children to the ER at the father's request, I'd wonder what SHE was taking. I know police said there were no drugs found in the home but I read that to mean no illegal drugs. Obviously there must have been SOME drugs especially since the kids had been sick for weeks.
MOO