Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #178

[sunshineray]

Me either, but I do get a laugh every time I read the original memo for Franks. The info contained within is so contrived, speculative and just not true but through their footnotes they think they can get away with their misrepresentations.

Franks Memo - Here is a prime example of the D's word play spin: Notice RA never stated the guards were threatening to kill his family unless he confessed. It's just a word ploy by the D. Page 22 of the FM

<snipped>
Richard would therefore not be able to privately discuss anything with his attorneys, such as “the guards are telling me that my wife and family will be killed unless I call my wife and tell her that I killed those girls.”15 Instead, a mentally defeated Richard Allen would continually mutter to his Defense team at every visit these types of general questions: “Is my wife alive? Is my family alive? Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?”

JMO

EBM - Bolded

It's all language with them and they love to repeat things over and over and over again to bump up their bullet points. It's comical sometimes. AJMO

 

[susiQ]

Agreed. And I have not heard where guards did threaten a family. Of course I have not been able to read everything printed in this case, if you have an approved link that states RA did claim this could you share please? I want to be fair. TIA

I don't have a link to prove he was threatened, but I do believe it's a possibility given other circumstances surrounding this case. It was said, that during one visit by his defence team, he repeatedly asked if his family was okay. Might mean something, might mean nothing. Hopefully, this will be addressed during the trial.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't have a link to prove he was threatened, but I do believe it's a possibility given other circumstances surrounding this case. It was said, that during one visit by his defence team, he repeatedly asked if his family was okay. Might mean something, might mean nothing. Hopefully, this will be addressed during the trial.

right but which witness will give evidence that he asked that?

and such evidence can’t be used to prove the truth of the statement. only RA can say if he really did confess because he was pressured.

others can only report what he told them. but of course it is also quite likely he would spin a story to his lawyers if he was guilty and had foolishly been recorded admitting it.

the prosecutor needs the chance to cross examine witnesses who try to establish this.

 

[Gardenista]

It's all language with them and they love to repeat things over and over and over again to bump up their bullet points. It's comical sometimes. AJMO

Exactly like Shoenhorn, the defense attorney for Michelle Troconis in the Dulos case. They must have had the same instructor for one of their CLE courses on the ins and outs of law regurgitation

 

[Gardenista]

right but which witness will give evidence that he asked that?

and such evidence can’t be used to prove the truth of the statement. only RA can say if he really did confess because he was pressured.

others can only report what he told them. but of course it is also quite likely he would spin a story to his lawyers if he was guilty and had foolishly been recorded admitting it.

the prosecutor needs the chance to cross examine witnesses who try to establish this.

Was going to comment about this too. Seems like RA would have to be the one giving the testimony about what his supposed fears were that caused him to make a fake confession. If testified to by anyone else, it would be excluded as self-serving hearsay. His confession would be hearsay as well, but would be an exception as an admission by a party opponent.

 

[mrjitty]

Was going to comment about this too. Seems like RA would have to be the one giving the testimony about what his supposed fears were that caused him to make a fake confession. If testified to by anyone else, it would be excluded as self-serving hearsay. His confession would be hearsay as well, but would be an exception as an admission by a party opponent.

yes. really the only person who can contradict his recorded admissions are RA himself. his lawyers cannot testify to the truth or otherwise. they in fact do not know.

 

[steeltowngirl]

right but which witness will give evidence that he asked that?

and such evidence can’t be used to prove the truth of the statement. only RA can say if he really did confess because he was pressured.

others can only report what he told them. but of course it is also quite likely he would spin a story to his lawyers if he was guilty and had foolishly been recorded admitting it.

the prosecutor needs the chance to cross examine witnesses who try to establish this.

His cell buddy was going to be a witness, but then refused to leave his cell as he feared the guards. Convenient. He wasn’t afraid to write a letter about the scary guards. I’m guessing he thought some privilege was in it for him to testify, and then found out there wasn’t. No deal - he’s out.

Richard Allen Case: Westville inmate would not testify after claims of retaliation, abuse by employees

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — In court documents unsealed on Thursday in Carroll County, an inmate at the Westville Correctional Facility wrote a letter to the Carroll County Court explaining why he…

fox59.com

 

[katydid23]

Just a disclaimer again that I am not asserting the Odinism theory is true. I am just trying to apply their theories to understand their line of thinking and strategies for wanting to depo the COs.

From what I understand from the defense’s motion as opposed to interrogating all the prison staff, they mainly want to depo only the 3 COs who had primary authority over RA in prison. IIRC, 2 of these COs have been alleged by AB, BR and Lamont to have displayed Odinist patches or tattoos and at least 1 identifies as an Odinist.

If I am following correctly one theory the defense posits is that Odinists in Delphi or Carroll County committed Libby’s and Abby’s murders as shown by evidence at the crime scene. Additionally, since the town of Delphi is rather small with a population of 3000 I assumed that similar to national trends the population of Odinist believers in that area would be very very small, especially when compared to the town’s Christian population and such. Keeping their argument or theory in line, compared to bigger religious circles in town Odinists in Delphi or Carroll County followers may be closer knit due to their small group or following size, have an easier time organizing meetings, getting to know, identify and contact one another. Such groups can grow really attached really fast and as a result it is possibly members are aware believer/believers actually committed the crimes but will cover for them and continue to protect each other and their religion. This theory or idea could apply even to the Odinists COs as well and thus cause a major concerning conflict of interest and put RA’s well-being and freedom at risks.

According to motions and interviews from BR, AB and Lamont, these COs also subjected to unusual stringent/severe conditions that impinged on their meetings, including keeping him chained while they spoke, restricting him to two showers a week and a small and recording their discussions via camera. According to these attorneys still RA seemed very intimidated and uncomfortable even when the COs watched from behind the glass panel. Additionally, since the town of Delphi is rather small with a population of 3000 I assumed that the population of Odinist believers in that area would be very very small, similar to national trends. Going by the defense’s theory, perhaps the alleged conditions suffered by RA are a means to manipulate him into taking the fall for the murders or at least break him mentally and emotionally to reduce his ability to functionally communicate with his attorneys or follow what is going on in court. If that part of their theory was proven true it would have a major impact on the trial and court case overall and possibly be very beneficial for RA and his defense team.

For investigative, strategic and moral/ethical reasons and the desire to win the case or at least address important considerations I think some of these reasons could explain why depos of the CO

Richard Allen's attorney request transfer from Wabash Valley Correctional Facility

Attorneys Robert Scremin and William Lebrato filed the six page motion this week asking for Allen to be moved to a closer location, or their ability to represent Allen may be impacted.

www.wrtv.com

Code of Ethics

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-ca7-12-01509/pdf/USCOURTS-ca7-12-01509-0.pdf

White supremacists are killing in the name of an ancient Nordic religion - The World from PRX

In at least six cases since 2001, professed Odinists have been convicted of plotting, or pulling off, domestic terrorism attacks, according to a review by Reveal from The Center for Investigative Reporting.

theworld.org

I think the constitutional rights of freedom of religion apply even when only a small amount of believers live in one city.

"Such groups can grow really attached really fast and as a result it is possibly members are aware believer/believers actually committed the crimes but will cover for them and continue to protect each other and their religion"

That statement could be considered true for all religions but it still does not nullify the 'Freedom of Religion' rights in this country, imo.

I take the defense teams claims about the 'torturous conditions' for RA with a huge grain of salt. JMO

 

[justtrish]

I don't have a link to prove he was threatened, but I do believe it's a possibility given other circumstances surrounding this case. It was said, that during one visit by his defence team, he repeatedly asked if his family was okay. Might mean something, might mean nothing. Hopefully, this will be addressed during the trial.

If he was threatened or felt threatened I believe it was more likely it was because he's accused of brutally murdering 2 young girls and not because the real killer is an Odinist who these guards know and want to protect by intimidating RA and forcing him to confess to his family. That doesn't mean I think it's okay in any way, but these high profile cases of child killers just might bring added attention and even prison guards can be disgusted wrongfully try to make life more difficult for someone accused of it.

 

[steeltowngirl]

If he was threatened or felt threatened I believe it was more likely it was because he's accused of brutally murdering 2 young girls and not because the real killer is an Odinist who these guards know and want to protect by intimidating RA and forcing him to confess to his family. That doesn't mean I think it's okay in any way, but these high profile cases of child killers just might bring added attention and even prison guards can be disgusted wrongfully try to make life more difficult for someone accused of it.

Agree with your reasoning; it’s the most likely scenario. They should have just kept RA at a jail, if possible, as they did with Kohberger. Would have eliminated the drama of the prison stay, since he’s not a convict. At least not yet.

jmo

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

(Edit to say sorry I see @girlhasnoname already posted this. Oh well I'll leave mine stand in the event anyone missed hers)

Jumping off your post to add the following.

What I am reading from the Franks Motion, p 22 is that Richard Allen DID not say the "guards are telling me...".
According the RA defense team Richard Allen DID say: Is my wife alive, is my family alive, is my wife/family safe?

Is there a link that I am missing where RA said guards are threatening him to confess?


Link to Franks Motion:

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

This positioning of Richard Allen’s body would allow the corrections officers to videotape Richard Allen’s mouth as he talked to his attorneys. Richard would therefore not be able to privately discuss anything with his attorneys, such as “the guards are telling me that my wife and family will be killed unless I call my wife and tell her that I killed those girls.”15 Instead, a mentally defeated Richard Allen would continually mutter to his Defense team at every visit these types of general questions: “Is my wife alive? Is my family alive? Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?”

So then perhaps I should elaborate more. According to Lamont, AB and BR allege that the difficult conditions hr experienced at the hands of the CO, including the isolation, segregation, lack of recreational time, access to a shower, more frequent opportunities to see his families and threats of mistreatment have caused RA severe stress, fear and mental and physical deterioration. BR states his mental and physical decline caused by the behaviors and threats imposed by the COs, authority figures within the prison system, lead to both his confessions, thus making them invalid and his inability to assist and engage in his own defense.

So to edit or clarify my earlier comment: threats to his mental and physical well-being perpetuated under the authority and decisions of his COs potentially led or caused unreliable confessions. As noted, in Westerville the 2 COs who were noted as tasing and mistreating RA also wore Odinist patches on their work uniforms with at least only 1 of them identifying as Odinist believer.

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect file motion to move him to another different prison

The motion comes one month after Richard Allen was moved from the Westville Correctional Facility in LaPorte County.

www.wndu.com

Attorneys for Richard Allen want client moved, lay out alternative theory of ‘ritualistic’ murder

DELPHI, Ind. – A ritualistic killing involving cultists. A conspiracy among prison guards. Investigators fixated on a single suspect. Those are among the stunning allegations made in court document…

fox59.com

Richard Allen legal team once again claims mistreatment, asks for move from Wabash Valley

UPDATE (2/8/2024): Judge Fran Gull has denied the motion asking for Richard Allen to be moved from Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. ————————&#821…

www.newsnationnow.com

‘Prisoner of war’: Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen want him moved to Cass County facility

UPDATE: A judge has granted a request by the attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen to move him to a different facility “to accommodate his medical and physical needs,” per a…

fox59.com

 

[Salah11]

If they want to play the mental health card then I want proof he had issues before he was banged to rights on the murder of 2 teenage girls.

a more cynical mind would say His mental health only plays up when he knows there is a ton of evidence linking him to the awful crimes.

Losing weight and soiling your T-Shirt doesn’t make me believe you have gone crazy.
Moooooo

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

I think the constitutional rights of freedom of religion apply even when only a small amount of believers live in one city.

"Such groups can grow really attached really fast and as a result it is possibly members are aware believer/believers actually committed the crimes but will cover for them and continue to protect each other and their religion"

That statement could be considered true for all religions but it still does not nullify the 'Freedom of Religion' rights in this country, imo.

I take the defense teams claims about the 'torturous conditions' for RA with a huge grain of salt. JMO

It will be interesting to see how the court decides and why. Freedom of Religion is clearly a fundamental and impermeable right. It does appear, from the little I was able to resd so far, that fortunately that there are various guidelines or models both within Indiana and the United States on how to balance both the Freedoms of Religion and the complexity of criminal law and conducting dispositions and territories.

https://law.indiana.edu/instruction/tanford/b723/11priv/T11.pdf

https://www.justice.gov/crt/page/file/1006786/dl#:~:text=Government%20may%20not%20restrict%20acts,actions%20that%20target%20religious%20conduct.

https://www.justice.gov/crt/page/file/1006786/dl

Wisconsin v. Yoder | Constitution Center

National Constitution Center Supreme Court Case Library: Wisconsin v. Yoder

constitutioncenter.org

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/projects-and-initiatives/civil-rights-civics-institute/religiousfreedom/

https://www.justice.gov/crt/page/file/1006786/dl#:~:text=As%20with%20claims%20under%20the,forbids%2C%20requires%2C%20or%20prevents.

 

[snooptroop88]

I know this is just projecting my own feelings onto another person, but I would never confess to something I didn't do just because a guard encouraged me to do so. Maybe a guard made some kind of passing comment that it would be better for him to come clean so he would feel better, but that's not really the same thing as "pushing" someone to do so.

Totally agreed, but didn't they have two other people confess to this too? And they're not on trial, so even P and LE believe there can be false/erroneous confessions, or confessions that are lacking or misleading. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this two other people/parties, but I believe that's the case. Checking now here, too. EF was one, who's the other? I'm still unable to locate the name of that other person, but the idea would remain the same, LE gets false confessions on high profile cases often. And RA's in prison under massive stress, if the confessions alone were all P had, I doubt the case would have gone to trial at all. It'll be a cumulative effect on the evidence if they get a conviction.

 

[susiQ]

right but which witness will give evidence that he asked that?

and such evidence can’t be used to prove the truth of the statement. only RA can say if he really did confess because he was pressured.

others can only report what he told them. but of course it is also quite likely he would spin a story to his lawyers if he was guilty and had foolishly been recorded admitting it.

the prosecutor needs the chance to cross examine witnesses who try to establish this.

Actually, it was Max Baker that stated in his affidavit that RA asked, “Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?”. As well, Matt Hoffman stated in his affidavit that RA said three times while being escorted by the Odinist guards, “Please don’t shock me, please don’t shock me, please don’t shock me.” It was witnessed by others as well, as stated in the affidavit. Both men are part of RA’s defense team.

Go ahead and call them liars if you like and dismiss their testimony. Many here believe that of the D in general, unfortunately. I choose to believe these two men were telling the truth of what they witnessed and it gives me great concern. All was not well with RA’s incarceration at Westville. JMHO.

 

[layer]

LE gets false confessions on high profile cases often.

Isn't that the main reason they give for withholding crime scene & cause of death information - to weed out false confessions?

 

[katydid23]

So then perhaps I should elaborate more. According to Lamont, AB and BR allege that the difficult conditions hr experienced at the hands of the CO, including the isolation, segregation, lack of recreational time, access to a shower, more frequent opportunities to see his families and threats of mistreatment have caused RA severe stress, fear and mental and physical deterioration. BR states his mental and physical decline caused by the behaviors and threats imposed by the COs, authority figures within the prison system, lead to both his confessions, thus making them invalid and his inability to assist and engage in his own defense.

So to edit or clarify my earlier comment: threats to his mental and physical well-being perpetuated under the authority and decisions of his COs potentially led or caused unreliable confessions. As noted, in Westerville the 2 COs who were noted as tasing and mistreating RA also wore Odinist patches on their work uniforms with at least only 1 of them identifying as Odinist believer.

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect file motion to move him to another different prison

The motion comes one month after Richard Allen was moved from the Westville Correctional Facility in LaPorte County.

www.wndu.com

Attorneys for Richard Allen want client moved, lay out alternative theory of ‘ritualistic’ murder

DELPHI, Ind. – A ritualistic killing involving cultists. A conspiracy among prison guards. Investigators fixated on a single suspect. Those are among the stunning allegations made in court document…

fox59.com

Richard Allen legal team once again claims mistreatment, asks for move from Wabash Valley

UPDATE (2/8/2024): Judge Fran Gull has denied the motion asking for Richard Allen to be moved from Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. ————————&#821…

www.newsnationnow.com

‘Prisoner of war’: Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen want him moved to Cass County facility

UPDATE: A judge has granted a request by the attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen to move him to a different facility “to accommodate his medical and physical needs,” per a…

fox59.com

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance

The Westville prison warden provided very specific details about the cell where Allen is living and the accommodations he is offered.

www.wthr.com

here are some excerpts :

• Allen is living in the prison’s A-pod, which is a segregated maximum security unit with additional security within the prison. The unit houses felons who have been convicted of serious crimes such as murder and child molestation.
• Allen’s cell is equipped with a surveillance camera that records his activities 24 hours a day.
• The warden assigned Allen to a segregated (individual) cell because the high-profile nature of Allen’s crime involving children places him at a higher risk of retaliation and violence from other inmates. Galipeau said he would be concerned about Allen's safety if he were to place him in the general population of Westville Correctional Facility.
• 
  Allen is permitted to shower three times per week, and he is allowed one hour of recreation time outside his cell five times per week.
• The defendant is provided three sets of clothing each week. He also has access to the prison commissary and has purchased socks, shoes and shirts, according to the warden.
• 
  Each inmate, including Allen, is provided an electronic tablet that allows him to listen to music, watch movies and make phone calls. Those calls can be accessed and monitored by a prison investigator.
• Unlike other inmates in the maximum security unit, Allen is permitted to have face-to-face visits with his family.
• When Allen is being transported from his cell to other locations within the prison, he is placed in chains/cuffs around his hands, feet and torso, and is sometimes transported with a restraint chain, which his defense team described as a leash similar to those used to walk a dog.
• Allen has been on “suicide watch” since last fall. The warden testified that Allen’s mental health seemed to decline a few months after he arrived when the defendant “received his legal paperwork.”
• He acknowledged Allen has lost considerable weight since arriving at Westville, but Galipeau said the defendant’s vital signs have remained within a “normal range” and he receives almost daily checkups by the prison’s medical and mental health staff.

 

[layer]

I'm wondering why people think RA suddenly began confessing to all these people after keeping it secret all those years. If it was a sudden attack of conscience, what brought that on? And where did it go?

 

[katydid23]

I'm wondering why people think RA suddenly began confessing to all these people after keeping it secret all those years. If it was a sudden attack of conscience, what brought that on? And where did it go?

It has been said that once RA received the legal paperwork---the discovery evidence from his legal team---his mental health greatly decreased. He became very distressed and acted out strangely, by eating some of the paperwork and acting strangely.

I think it may have been a sudden attack of conscience, in that he suddenly became aware of how much evidence the state had against him, and it all became real for him.

I think that may have triggered those confessions to his wife and mother---maybe he wanted them to hear it from him first, to prepare them for what was coming?

 

[snooptroop88]

I'm wondering why people think RA suddenly began confessing to all these people after keeping it secret all those years. If it was a sudden attack of conscience, what brought that on? And where did it go?

Agreed, and then, he didn't stand by it. This puts P in the position of "sometimes" believing RA, they believe him when he said he did it, but now don't believe him when he says he didn't do it. And of course the D believes just the opposite. The D would have the better case here JMO in that RA did make the confessions in a very high-pressure, high-stress environment. However, the P could counter that this is what it took to provoke a genuine attack of conscience. JMO, the confessions by themselves mean little. It's the confessions with his presence on the bridge at the critical time and other evidence that will convict, if he is convicted. And just as an incidental note, I never see a polygraph discussed with RA, and I can see why. With the vacillations on the confessions and his difficulties in incarceration, he'd be someone that should not take a polygraph, JMO I'd view it as unreliable in his case whatever the result was. All MOO.