Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

[steeltowngirl]

I must disagree with that. Two adolescent girls literally at the dead end of a sketchy bridge would be easy for one grown man to physically threaten, intimidate and control. What I can't figure out is how he planned (and seemingly succeeded) in keeping them from screaming. Teen girls are notoriously loud screamers and I bet you would be able to hear echoes all along Deer Creek. Without further specifics, I'm about done with the gun and bullet. What I'm really interested to learn is what the murder weapon is.

May have gone like this: “Scream, and I will put bullets in the both of you. Now.. down the hill.”

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Allen’s trial was previously scheduled to begin in October but will now start on Monday, May 13.

According to our sister station WTHR, the trial will begin in Fort Wayne with jury selection. Special Judge Frances Gull expects that process to take approximately three days.

Gull says the jury would then be sworn in on the fourth day, with opening statements beginning by the fifth day. That means the jury could start hearing testimony on Friday, May 17.

After the jury is selected, the actual trial phase of the proceedings will take place at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi. The trial will take place six days a week — Monday through Saturday from roughly 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. — if there are no religious objections from any of the jurors.

Gull expects the trial to be completed in three weeks by May 31.

Special judge in Delphi murders case releases new details on trial proceedings

Richard Allen’s trial was previously scheduled to begin in October but will now start on May 13.

www.wndu.com

 

[Cyber sleuth]

What makes you believe that?

Two victims if one tried to run away why wouldn’t he have used it?.

I appreciate your question. It’s a good one and all I have in return is my opinion. I don’t think he would have fired that weapon in the woods. If one had run away I think he would have just let her and quickened the attack on the one that stayed or fled himself.
I don’t think he would have wanted attention drawn in himself or left ballistic evidence at the crime scene.
All my opinion. But he chose not to use the gun as a murder weapon for this reason.

 

[steeltowngirl]

What was our consensus on voice recognition being used as trial evidence to establish that RA=BG? If its use even exists in a courtroom, I suppose it is more controversial than ballistics and polygraphs.

I ask this because today I had to call my retirement investment funds manager. They verified my identity using voice recognition. Had me thinking that it must be somewhat reliable if a major investment firm uses it as a type of biometric authentication.

 

[steeltowngirl]

The court would have to agree to admitting the testimony of those witnesses. Since Elvis is not the one on trial, it is not automatic that his sisters will be allowed to testify. If the prosecution has solid evidence to clear him, those witnesses will not be allowed to testify.

The same situation happened in the McStay family murder trial. The defense hung its hat upon blaming another guy for the murders. But the court did not allow much of that extraneous testimony because there was a solid alibi for the SODDI.

Poor Elvis. Can you imagine if he (or any of the crew identified in the FM) had been arrested and put on trial due to a staged crime scene that mimicked some Facebook pix… and defense discovered the “lost tip” of RA, who had placed himself at the scene? There would be outrage.

jmo

 

[Spartygirl]

What makes you believe that?
Two victims if one tried to run away why wouldn’t he have used it?.

Too many other people out there , plus local homes and people at home and a gunshot would definitely have drawn attention to him/them.

According to family, the girls, LIBBY and ABBY would not have left each other, so there's that also.

“I’m glad she had the wherewithal to do that [make the recording],” Patty said. “Both the girls were heroes. They stuck together. I don’t know exactly what happened out there that day, but I imagine there was probably the opportunity for one or both to separate and try to make a break for it. But those girls loved each other. They were good friends. Neither one of them left each other’s side. Both of those girls are heroes in my book.”

Grandfather of slain Delphi teen: ‘It’s the small things that seem to hurt the most’

DELPHI, Ind. – For the first time since the deaths of two teens in Delphi, the grandfather of one of the victims spoke to the media about the case. Mike Patty, Liberty German’s grandfather, s…

fox59.com

 

[susiQ]

Poor Elvis. Can you imagine if he (or any of the crew identified in the FM) had been arrested and put on trial due to a staged crime scene that mimicked some Facebook pix… and defense discovered the “lost tip” of RA, who had placed himself at the scene? There would be outrage.

jmo

Personally, I think most people (maybe not on this thread) are “outraged” by the fact that EF, JM, BH and PW were not properly investigated early on. There was no “lost tip” concerning RA, it was a missed account of his having come forward to tell an official that he was at the bridge and trails that day like so many others. Poor Elvis nothing! Or any of that ilk. I don’t much feel sorry for those dealing meth and kidnapping people as testified by TC. Poor Abby and Libby. . JMHO

 

[DeDee]

Got a few more pages to go but wondering… are they submitting the requests before racking up additional expenses? Is there a response from the court on this? I would like to read why it’s been denied.
Also is it fair to compare the investigative costs when the state had a burden to find the killer? I don’t think defense should compare that. MOO… grabbing coffee and back to reading.

From Law and Crime
MAR 27, 2024

Rozzi claims that he’s already spent more than $51,000 of his own money on the case which has yet to be reimbursed... attorneys allege that requests to fund consultations with experts in ballistics, digital data, and criminal psychology have all been rejected by Gull.

In contrast, the attorneys also emphasized that the state has near limitless resources at its disposal, with the county prosecutor giving himself, his chief deputy, and his secretary raises

 

[steeltowngirl]

Personally, I think most people (maybe not on this thread) are “outraged” by the fact that EF, JM, BH and PW were not properly investigated early on. There was no “lost tip” concerning RA, it was a missed account of his having come forward to tell an official that he was at the bridge and trails that day like so many others. Poor Elvis nothing! Or any of that ilk. I don’t much feel sorry for those dealing meth and kidnapping people as testified by TC. Poor Abby and Libby. . JMHO

“Were not properly investigated early on”
- According to the defense.

We know next to nothing about each of the hundreds of POIs that were investigated. As it should be. Once a suspect is ruled out, there is no reason for LE to publicize details.

I am happy to see some spark for Libby and Abby! A welcome breather from the “poor Richard Allen” mantra.

 

[snooptroop88]

“Were not properly investigated early on”
- According to the defense.

We know next to nothing about each of the hundreds of POIs that were investigated. As it should be. Once a suspect is ruled out, there is no reason for LE to publicize details.

I am happy to see some spark for Libby and Abby! A welcome breather from the “poor Richard Allen” mantra.

Totally agreed on this. I was watching Nancy Grace recently, and she was talking about how RL's wife kept insisting BG had to be RL, had to be, no doubt. But it wasn't. And I know people are talking a lot about the voice recognition. There's actually a lot out there for RL's voice, there's no way I believe that BG's voice is RL. To me, it sounds absolutely nothing like him. On the other hand, there's oddly practically nothing out there for RA on voice, despite busy Facebook pages kept by his loved ones. The tiny clip I did manage to get early on, I didn't think it sounded like him, but it certainly wouldn't rule him out. I heard a YouTube comparison where they somehow managed to get an earlier clip of his voice from the same video where I got mine. (Don't know if people have seen this, but probably, where RA and wife are on some lift ride of some kind, and she's talking about "going down." RA speaks very briefly.) The clip the YouTuber had sounded exactly like BG to me. I know in the age of DNA, people tend to kick circumstantial evidence to the curb, but it might be a radically different situation with a murderer who actually left his own image and voice sample behind. And as far as the fringe/cult Odinists go-- or any hate group generally-- the mindset of many in such groups might well lead them to want to appear as if they'd committed such heinous acts whether they in fact did or not. Why? They're already haters, and this-- in terms of their mindset-- makes them look like more powerful haters. MOO, hate groups are into that. They know the average Joe finds them repulsive, and the haters are ok with that. But they definitely want the average Joe to be terrified of them.

 

[AugustWest]

What was our consensus on voice recognition being used as trial evidence to establish that RA=BG? If its use even exists in a courtroom, I suppose it is more controversial than ballistics and polygraphs.

I ask this because today I had to call my retirement investment funds manager. They verified my identity using voice recognition. Had me thinking that it must be somewhat reliable if a major investment firm uses it as a type of biometric authentication.

@steeltowngirl

I did an analysis on my thoughts on that issue on Sunday. Here's the post:

@Cyber sleuth

First, I return your kind words and wish you and your loved ones a happy Easter Sunday, as well as to all of you reading along.

I wanted to comment on the audio comparison you are speaking about. The analysis a court does when determining whether a voice identification is allowed under the rules of evidence comes from common law, in particular the case of Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188 (1972). I have included a link below for you to read should you be interested.

Link: Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188 (1972)

This case dealt with both eyewitness and voice id, and a rule was formed by the Court to test reliability of these identifications. The test requires courts to consider two things: (1) the suggestive nature of the identification; (2) the reliability of the identification. As far as suggestive, think one on one id's vs. photo lineups. As far as reliability, the court laid out "indicia" of reliability in Manson v. Brathwaite, 432 U.S. 98 (1977).

Link: Manson v. Brathwaite, 432 U.S. 98 (1977)

Without being more verbose than I have already been, I will simply say the way you have described recognition would not pass muster on a due process level. A one-on-one comparison between RA and BG voice samples would first be overly suggestive. Further, such a comparison would also be unreliable, as layperson identifications (i.e. the jury) are notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. The jurors will have never heard RA's or BG's voice before, and are thus not sufficiently familiar with it to make such an ID. There were also no known witnesses who heard RA's or BG's voice, so hearsay would also be a problem.

Here is a really good law journal article on the topic should you be interested. I think it will help those reading in thinking about not only voice analysis comparisons, but also visual identifications.

Journal: https://repository.uclawsf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3507&context=hastings_law_journal

Even if you disagree, I feel the law journals and case law will be informative for you.

 

[Boxer]

There's accurate (enough to encourage further investigation) and there's accurate (enough to prove guilt). The part of that nearly 1% error rate that is scary is this: a cartridge and a gun were incorrectly matched. So out of those 172 examiners more than one would have matched the cartridge to the wrong gun.

Science generally has .05

Add to that, this ruling is questioning the reliability of identifying fired bullets... not what we have here at all.

The tool marks will be a "consistent with" match.

There may be more than tool marks too, for instance matching the type of round to a batch of ammo bought by RA.

 

[steeltowngirl]

@steeltowngirl

I did an analysis on my thoughts on that issue on Sunday. Here's the post:


Even if you disagree, I feel the law journals and case law will be informative for you.

Thank you @AugustWest !

 

[layer]

May have gone like this: “Scream, and I will put bullets in the both of you. Now.. down the hill.”

If so, that will be on the audio. As soon as he said "Scream..." I'd have taken him up on it and started screaming.

 

[steeltowngirl]

If so, that will be on the audio. As soon as he said "Scream..." I'd have taken him up on it and started screaming.

Yeah, as an adult and having followed many crime cases, I have concluded I won’t ever be forced into a car or taken at gunpoint, if that awful situation happened. Cause the ending will likely be far worse than just getting shot and die quickly.

But I’m not 13. Those poor girls had to be terrified.

 

[layer]

Yeah, as an adult and having followed many crime cases, I have concluded I won’t ever be forced into a car or taken at gunpoint, if that awful situation happened. Cause the ending will likely be far worse than just getting shot and die quickly.

But I’m not 13. Those poor girls had to be terrified.

Believe me, I'm not critiquing them, just trying to figure out a way they could have got out alive. Then again, someone had a drop-kick off the bridge idea. I like that better.

 

[FromGermany1]

If so, that will be on the audio. As soon as he said "Scream..." I'd have taken him up on it and started screaming.

I think, each girl would have felt responsible for the life of her best friend and couldn't have done it.

 

[mrjitty]

@Boxer I deleted mine too. There are similar numbers in this article, but they are simply numbers from a study, not particular to RA's gun.

Link: Linking of Richard Allen’s gun to Delphi crime scene ‘not science’ says The Innocence Project

No big deal, I don't get caught up on the factual background of cases very much until trial. I'm more interested in points of law.

BIB - This is such a wise approach - that I constantly preach but never stick to!

 

[mrjitty]

The court would have to agree to admitting the testimony of those witnesses. Since Elvis is not the one on trial, it is not automatic that his sisters will be allowed to testify. If the prosecution has solid evidence to clear him, those witnesses will not be allowed to testify.

The same situation happened in the McStay family murder trial. The defense hung its hat upon blaming another guy for the murders. But the court did not allow much of that extraneous testimony because there was a solid alibi for the SODDI.

This is why i think they might rely more on Click and not try to introduce the Elvis stuff directly. Click can play the role of solid officer who has stood up because he believes his investigation was never run to ground. He isn't saying so much that Elvis and co did it, but that they weren't eliminated as a reasonable possibility.

IMO the more you get into trying to prove BH and co were all in on it, when he has an alibi, the more you risk the jury thinking the case against RA is much stronger than the one against BH - which seems to be some facebook posts???

 

[girlhasnoname]

I disagree with there being an "implicit bias" or "bias". JMO

Edited for clarity:
If a blind study of a certain science shows whatever results, those are the results, to then be interrupted. There's no bias involved. Again JMO

It seems like everyone is 'biased' relating to this case.

The State of Indiana allows ballistic testing to be permitted in testimony. It's that simple. An expert from each side will present their findings and it will be up to the jury to decide how much weight to give to each side's testimony.

In combination with all of the other items of evidence we know of so far, I don't think it's a stretch to conclude that the bullet found at the scene belongs to RA and was ejected by his SS. Wonder if the bullet in the keepsake box found during the SW will be the same brand?

Brick by brick is how they will build the wall that will prove RA's guilt BARD. The State has a lot of bricks. IMO

#Justice4Abby&LibbyTheRealVictims

JMO