GUILTY WI - Apple River multiple stabbing; one teen dead, 4 other people hurt; 52 year old man arrested, July 2022

[Snoopster]

So, not 'jabs' ?
When I said that, I was referring only to what the video captured.

Not sure how long it would take to cut through two ribs and slicing the heart.

The problem is the video didn't catch the death of Isaac and the camera was pointing a bit away.
Also didn't see exactly when the man in the yellow was stabbed, nor the young woman.
For all of the video caught at that moment, we don't know how long the stabs were inflicted.
Omo.

I agree. We didn't see any of that. The court is lucky that the video even exists. But it doesn't show details of the knifing attacks. This case is already messy enough with so many conflicting witness statements. I don't envy the jury.

 

[Mack the Knife]

So, not 'jabs' ?
When I said that, I was referring only to what the video captured.

Not sure how long it would take to cut through two ribs and slicing the heart.

The problem is the video didn't catch the death of Isaac and the camera was pointing a bit away.
Also didn't see exactly when the man in the yellow was stabbed, nor the young woman.
For all of the video caught at that moment, we don't know how long the stabs were inflicted.
Omo.

I don’t know the truth of it, but the prosecution points to the part I mentioned (3:12 in the video I linked) as when NM stabbed AJ, the man in the yellow shorts. You can see where/when NM’s hand meets AJ’s abdomen and then disconnects when he falls. I don’t actually see the knife in his hand at that point because it is moving so fast, but from context and other frames of the video I trust that it is. In the opening argument the prosecution indicated that this was the time AJ was significantly wounded, so I don’t think there is some other time that wasn’t caught on tape.

The woman who I believe to be Rhyley was already cut at this point. So in less than 10 seconds, NM allegedly punches Madison, then is shoved into the water and maybe slapped, then he starts to get up, then he stabs AJ as AJ shoves him back into the water. And at some point in there he slashes Rhyley.

Tony appears to be deescalating at that time, before they all realize there is a weapon being used, and I actually think if NM had not been using the knife, Tony might have been successful in deescalating the situation and it could have been done with. Though it’s not clear to me when they realized he had a knife or what Tony, Isaac, and Madison were doing when NM ultimately stabbed/cut them.

 

[Chimera]

I don’t know the truth of it, but the prosecution points to the part I mentioned (3:12 in the video I linked) as when NM stabbed AJ, the man in the yellow shorts. You can see where/when NM’s hand meets AJ’s abdomen and then disconnects when he falls. I don’t actually see the knife in his hand at that point because it is moving so fast, but from context and other frames of the video I trust that it is. In the opening argument the prosecution indicated that this was the time AJ was significantly wounded, so I don’t think there is some other time that wasn’t caught on tape.

The woman who I believe to be Rhyley was already cut at this point. So in less than 10 seconds, NM allegedly punches Madison, then is shoved into the water and maybe slapped, then he starts to get up, then he stabs AJ as AJ shoves him back into the water. And at some point in there he slashes Rhyley.

Tony appears to be deescalating at that time, before they all realize there is a weapon being used, and I actually think if NM had not been using the knife, Tony might have been successful in deescalating the situation and it could have been done with. Though it’s not clear to me when they realized he had a knife or what Tony, Isaac, and Madison were doing when NM ultimately stabbed/cut them.

I am going to have to re-watch the video without the sound on; I was admittedly distracted by the yelling.

Wonder if we're going to hear from the person who lost their phone, the one NM was looking for ?
At the very beginning of the video, NM wades over and grabs the other groups' inner tube floaties, and the younger people seem both annoyed and startled.
What happened before the video began ?
Was there ever a missing phone ?
And so on.
If my phone or a friend's phone was missing, I'd be asking people to look out for it, and would be looking myself-- but I wouldn't be touching anyone's stuff.
Omo.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

If you listen to today's witnesses from Day 3, you'll hear

- wife of NM confirming she still loves NM. They met at work. they have a furbaby.
- wife saying this knife was packed since it's a utility knife (adding credence to the idea that this has not been premeditated, not intended to be used as a murder weapon) for incidental tasks, says she saw someone use it to cut ropes that day
- wife mentions one person in their group dropped their cellphone in the river and NM wanted to go in and look for it with snorkel.
- wife mentions snorkel and mask were brought because her husband wanted to maybe look for any dropped jewelery in the river (kind of like how old people use metal detectors at the beach?)

 

[CuriousCarly]

I had different feelings about this until I watched it in order. The drunk and stoned football players were badgering him before he first approached them. At that point, he headed toward their tubes but dropped his mask and snorkel in the water when he got there. At that point, he was more focused on finding his gear. They continued to badger him and he did walk away, but they continued to follow/approach. He then headed over to the 2 girls, looking for a reprieve, but they were laying into him as well. They called over their friends and pretty soon it was a wild gang around him. I'd be freaked out as well. I don't think there is video of him hitting the girl, and later photos show she still has her beer and phone in hand. It is a very unfortunate situation that unravelled quickly.

 

[CrimeTheorist]

I think it will come down to proving who started the physical altercation. If the jury believes it was him I think he'll be convicted but if they think the teenagers did he'll be exonerated imo.

Although, there was that man who was filmed by the YouTube prankster who was acquitted of malicious wounding without a physical altercation even occurring. Just being harassed and filmed was enough for a jury to feel like he was justified in using lethal force. Obviously many differences in the cases like number of people involved, weapon used and no one died in that one but I can definitely see him being found not guilty for similar reasons.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Still could change back, but I flipped from guilty to NG after watching the video and hearing that one of them had their hands around Miu's throat.

I'm trying to catch up; did you hear or see that evidence? If you heard it, did the defense attorney say that or did you hear it on the video? TIA

 

[GoBuckeyes]

No doubt these young kids were punks. Got into smoking and drinking way over their heads and immature.

One died and several were knifed (there could have been more than one fatality) required surgery.

This guy got his ego hurt and played around with them, challenging them more. He ought to have walked. Be the bigger person, he didn't lower himself to being the same as them, he out did them. Was NM drinking that day? No excuse, but curious. Curious also about anger issue.

There's a lot to be side for "turn the other cheek."

All moo -- thoughts only

Saw testimony in which the ex-wife didn't see or hear and can't remember anything, but clearly recalls that he had 2 beers. (Odd that that's almost exclusively what she recalls of the entire day. moo)

 

[GoBuckeyes]

It really doesn't matter what I think, still on the fence, however, I will never advocate or support physical violence. Not saying anyone here is doing that, only saying imo, does not appear to be self-defense.

Will see what the jury does -- they clearly have their work to do.

Curious if NM has any children and also what his wife was doing during the events at the river?

My thoughts. This case is interesting.

On the stand, NM's now ex-wife, showed empathy for no one there that day but herself, imoo. Her testimony was incredulous!

 

[GoBuckeyes]

So, my interpretation so far after watching multiple analysis of the video and listening to the testimony, is that:
- One of the drunk teens taunted NM and asked him what he was doing. NM wouldn't reply. NM then approached the drunk teens and grabbed their tubes. They jumped up, concerned. And continued taunting him (calling him a perv/child rapist, etc.), asking him what he was doing and asking him to leave. He wouldn't reply. He continued to hang around them as he had now dropped his snorkel and mask, but they didn't know what he was doing.
- When NM didn't go away (although he did move away a bit) another group of adults (the "Carlson group") began to get involved. Two women came over and asked him to leave. NM didn't reply and didn't leave. NM pulled his knife out of his shorts while facing the two women who were 'in his face'. He kept the knife at his side. The women continued to yell at him to leave the area and then NM apparently punched one of the women in the face. This caused an immediate escalation as a couple of people moved in in response. They began to shove NM and knocked him down in the shallow water. He started stabbing people.

So, why didn't NM simply leave the area and go back to his group after multiple people asked him multiple times? He chose to stay. He put himself in that position. He had pulled his knife out of his pocket well before he was 'cornered'. I believe that the taunting got to him and he had no intention of standing down. He was itching for a fight by that time.

Clearly some of the teens acted terribly....they were bullies with their taunting. But a 50-something man should have recognized it for what it was and yet he would not disengage (even though he wasn't talking, which was part of the problem!) and simply move on. His ego got in the way.

I think NM will be convicted of manslaughter. I don't think they will get a first degree conviction since he didn't start slashing until the bigger group started to shove him.

This all could have been avoided if he had simply moved away as requested by multiple people, many times.

ETA: of course I reserve the right to change my opinion based on further evidence at the trial!

I keep wondering what might have happened if he had told the group of teens, "A lady in my group dropped her phone somewhere right around here. She asked me to look for it since I have snorkel gear with me." They might have helped look... but maybe I'm too naive.

 

[Megnut]

Forgive my ignorance -- was there genuinely a lost phone?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

@cathyrusson

Stabbing victim AJ Martin is on the stand. https://youtube.com/watch?v=SIWIMVSgN2g

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12:18 PM · Apr 3, 2024

That's a lot of rage! moo

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Forgive my ignorance -- was there genuinely a lost phone?

I still don't know for sure. The ex-wife claims a lady in her group dropped her phone in the water, but I don't know how accurate that is.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

This is confusing to me. The initial confrontation was between NM and Isaac's group. I'm not sure if the audio is available (it isn't in this video), but it looks like Madison then comes in pretty hot and is the primary one in her group (the Carlson group) interacting with NM, with the rest of the group walking towards but hanging back a little.

Then, the situation continues to escalate and NM (allegedly) punches Madison, resulting in her sunglasses falling off of her face. Looks like there is a tussle at this point with NM getting shoved around and falling into the water a couple of times before he gets up and starts using the knife.

It doesn't seem like the full sequence of events has really been laid out yet, but it doesn't appear that Isaac was stabbed first, yet he is the only person who died from their injuries, and the only person from his group who was stabbed. It's just very surprising to me that the original beef was with Isaac's group, but it is mostly members of the Carlson group that were stabbed.

I think Isaac was stabbed last??

 

[Megnut]

Self-defense is one thing, but he brought a knife to a drunk polo match.

I see unbridled rage.

JMO

 

[Gardenista]

The hospital that treated the wounded would have checked for alcohol and , umm... other substances as well, though.
Nothing has come out about that yet, afaik ?
In some cases they draw blood in case you need a transfusion.
Omo.

Unless I missed it, they've all been legally drunk except one. The guy who died, Isaac, was more than twice the legal limit. He had the highest BAH of the group to this point

 

[Gardenista]

I'm trying to catch up; did you hear or see that evidence? If you heard it, did the defense attorney say that or did you hear it on the video? TIA

It's in the main video

 

[Gardenista]

Forgive my ignorance -- was there genuinely a lost phone?

We don't know for sure yet, but I can't imagine the defense would talk about it so much if it wasn't true.

Same with Maddie being punched. If they didn't have evidence he didn't punched her, I doubt the defense would be pressing the witnesses so hard.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

On the stand, NM's now ex-wife, showed empathy for no one there that day but herself, imoo. Her testimony was incredulous!

This is why the concept of a jury is so interesting.. I didn't watch it (I listened only) and though she sounded irritated at some of the monotonous repetitive questions, I didn't find her to be incredulous. What didn't you believe?

I'm glad she at least said she saw things from a distance. If she saw it, why didn't anyone from her group (at least 5 others depicted in their photo) hear the pleas for help/ intervene in the moments before this became a mob scene?

 

[Gardenista]

Self-defense is one thing, but he brought a knife to a drunk polo match.

I see unbridled rage.

JMO

I see fear. From what I've seen so far, if I was in his situation and had his same background and health condition, I'd be stabbing too. Also, not knowing that there was video to prove I was attacked, I might lie to the police too.