OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024

[carbuff]

“In and around” could mean shattered glass. Many have assumed worse like blood. If it’s only glass that might be why OSBI are hoping they are still alive.

I can see a situation where someone blocks the road or forces the ladies off the side of the road with a pickup. Using common sense they refused to unlock the doors so the perp(s) smashed the glass get to them or threaten them with a firearm, and then abduct them. MOO.

That's a good point.

It seems to me that OSBI's somewhat low key response, playing close to the vest, could be because they do think they're alive and they're being careful not to jeopardize them.

 

[MassGuy]

That's a good point.

It seems to me that OSBI's somewhat low key response, playing close to the vest, could be because they do think they're alive and they're being careful not to jeopardize them.

I’ve just never seen a case like this wind up with a happy ending. If the car told them that this was foul play, it’s likely it’s due to blood evidence. That indicates to me that the whole point of this was violence.

There’s no motive that involves keeping them alive, and law enforcement likely didn’t want to say foul play right away. They’ve said it now.

 

[Betty P]

How long have the parents not had shared custody? When was VB required to have supervised visits with her children? And why?

I read the most recent document related to their custody battle. I don’t think the term “supervised” applies. Both parents had to meet the same requirements like keeping to a prearranged visitation schedule, etc.

OSCN Case Details

 

[Universecalling]

I think it's really likely this involved a pre-dug grave. The logic here appears to be no body, no crime, and I'm confident this was premeditated. Something like pigs would take time, and they don't eat everything. That's certainly been done before, but that's when you know law enforcement isn't about to start knocking on doors and looking around.

Very true and a great observation.

Just was thinking of how vast and desolate that area is. Pick up with a trailer or a tractor, driving away. Hidden in plain sight.
No one bats an eye. It could be at a farm hours away. <modsnip: Unnecessary and graphic speculation>
Premeditated too, but different modus operandi.

 

[Universecalling]

I think it's really likely this involved a pre-dug grave. The logic here appears to be no body, no crime, and I'm confident this was premeditated. Something like pigs would take time, and they don't eat everything. That's certainly been done before, but that's when you know law enforcement isn't about to start knocking on doors and looking around.

One more thing…
This is nagging at me- let’s say it’s premeditated and the scene of the crime is where the car was found.
There’s enough evidence to suggest foul play. Why even bother with moving the bodies? Risk is exponentially higher.
The cost/benefit ratio of moving TWO bodies only checks out if the plan to leave the car intact with no evidence of foul play was executed flawlessly.

 

[KariKae]

The reporter makes an interesting point here, which is kind of what I expected. She’s near the location where the car was found, and says that her cell phone signal has been going in and out. She questions the ability of the women to even connect to 911 if they attempted to call.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1776379144399462743

And if that's the case, it may be difficult to get a location of "last cell ping". Don't they do that by triangulating off the nearest three towers or something like that?

 

[Hestia's Fire]

One more thing…
This is nagging at me- let’s say it’s premeditated and the scene of the crime is where the car was found.
There’s enough evidence to suggest foul play. Why even bother with moving the bodies? Risk is exponentially higher.
The cost/benefit ratio of moving TWO bodies only checks out if the plan to leave the car intact with no evidence of foul play was executed flawlessly.

No body, no crime?
If they had killed the women there in the car and left the bodies, the murder investigation would have started right there at 9:30 am, or whatever time that morning that law enforcement arrived at the car. They'd be investigating a double homicide right off the bat, getting warrants to find out whose cell phones were in the area at the time, etc. If they messed up and left any fingerprints or DNA evidence on or around the bodies, they're busted.
By moving the bodies, they left some doubt as to whether or not it was a murder or just a mysterious disappearance. If they're clever enough to hide the bodies well, they probably think they can get away with their crimes. Even if they're found now, without the bodies, it's so much harder to get a murder conviction.

 

[KariKae]

I do not think whatever happened (abduction or murder) happened where the car was found. If the women were killed, think about how hard it is to move the "dead weight" into another vehicle. It would take at least two people. It just seems too risky to kill two people, wrestle the bodies out of the car, move the bodies to another vehicles, all in broad daylight, and no one sees a thing (that we know of). I know it's rural, but surely someone would drive by.

I think it's more likely that *whatever* happened, happened elsewhere and the car was dropped. But if this WAS the court ordered exchange site, my above theory makes a lot less sense.

 

[Universecalling]

No body, no crime?
If they had killed the women there in the car and left the bodies, the murder investigation would have started right there at 9:30 am, or whatever time that morning that law enforcement arrived at the car. They'd be investigating a double homicide right off the bat, getting warrants to find out whose cell phones were in the area at the time, etc. If they messed up and left any fingerprints or DNA evidence on or around the bodies, they're busted.
By moving the bodies, they left some doubt as to whether or not it was a murder or just a mysterious disappearance. If they're clever enough to hide the bodies well, they probably think they can get away with their crimes. Even if they're found now, without the bodies, it's so much harder to get a murder conviction.

That’s the thing. They did leave enough evidence to signal foul play. So much of it that the investigation started that moment and two pastors (one of them a husband) showed up at the abandoned car by 10:30. LE refers to them as victims, not missing persons.

 

[Hestia's Fire]

That’s the thing. They did leave enough evidence to signal foul play. So much of it that the investigation started that moment and two pastors (one of them a husband) showed up at the abandoned car by 10:30. LE refers to them as victims, not missing persons.

Right, but they didn't start referring to them as victims until April 3rd, several days after they went missing. The initial reports referred to "the suspicious disappearance," but stopped short of calling the women victims.

I'm not saying I think the perp or perps were criminal masterminds or anything. Like most criminals, I think they've vastly overestimated their cleverness compared to law enforcement and they'll soon be caught and prosecuted for their crimes. But I can imagine they believe they have a better chance of getting away with murder if the bodies are never found. IMO, MOO, etc., etc.

 

[Knox]

Right, but they didn't start referring to them as victims until April 3rd, several days after they went missing. The initial reports referred to "the suspicious disappearance," but stopped short of calling the women victims.

I'm not saying I think the perp or perps were criminal masterminds or anything. Like most criminals, I think they've vastly overestimated their cleverness compared to law enforcement and they'll soon be caught and prosecuted for their crimes. But I can imagine they believe they have a better chance of getting away with murder if the bodies are never found. IMO, MOO, etc., etc.

I wonder if the timeline of announcing them as victims, indicates forensic results on blood found in the car came back. Showing the blood was from both of them, not just one or the other.

 

[Universecalling]

Right, but they didn't start referring to them as victims until April 3rd, several days after they went missing. The initial reports referred to "the suspicious disappearance," but stopped short of calling the women victims.

I'm not saying I think the perp or perps were criminal masterminds or anything. Like most criminals, I think they've vastly overestimated their cleverness compared to law enforcement and they'll soon be caught and prosecuted for their crimes. But I can imagine they believe they have a better chance of getting away with murder if the bodies are never found. IMO, MOO, etc., etc.

Agreed.
Do you think it was a tactic to not refer to them as victims until days later?
I think they knew right away, but waited for DNA analysis or some form of forensic testing to confirm.
The fact that the husband showed up at the scene by 10:30 makes me think there was enough activity for everyone to know this was targeted.

 

[carbuff]

I’ve just never seen a case like this wind up with a happy ending. If the car told them that this was foul play, it’s likely it’s due to blood evidence. That indicates to me that the whole point of this was violence.

There’s no motive that involves keeping them alive, and law enforcement likely didn’t want to say foul play right away. They’ve said it now.

No, there's not a lot of hope, and what there is fades by the minute.

If there was only one person involved in the ambush or whatever it was, he might not have been expecting two people in the car. It might have been easier for one person to herd the women into another vehicle at gunpoint than to try to move and dispose of two bodies.

 

[Hestia's Fire]

Agreed.
Do you think it was a tactic to not refer to them as victims until days later?
I think they knew right away, but waited for DNA analysis or some form of forensic testing to confirm.
The fact that the husband showed up at the scene by 10:30 makes me think there was enough activity for everyone to know this was targeted.

I think they probably had to wait for forensics to come back on the blood or whatever was in the car, to be sure it was from Veronica and Jilian so they didn't speak too soon. Hypothetically any blood could have come from the perp cutting himself or getting a nose bleed or something.

My guess about the husband showing up so early is that he was already uneasy about the situation because of the tension between the two families and probably would have been tracking his wife's location or at least would have told her to keep in regular contact until they had the kids and were safely heading back. When her phone went silent or she stopped responding, he probably would have immediately gone into panic mode.

 

[shefner]

Something happened in or around the car.
If the incident happened at the scene where the car was recovered, the perpetrator/s had to be in, or at least all around, the car. The more contact they had around the car, the more likely it is they left some identifying evidence there...hairs, fibers, fingerprints, fluids.

If the incident occurred elsewhere and the car driven to its recovered location, then the perpetrator was inside the vehicle for a period of time while driving it, increasing the odds that identifying evidence was transferred in the process.

It would be a coup if forensics testing were to come back with some type of evidence from that vehicle linking this incident to a specific suspect.

 

[MassGuy]

Something happened in or around the car.
If the incident happened at the scene where the car was recovered, the perpetrator/s had to be in, or at least all around, the car. The more contact they had around the car, the more likely it is they left some identifying evidence there...hairs, fibers, fingerprints, fluids.

If the incident occurred elsewhere and the car driven to its recovered location, then the perpetrator was inside the vehicle for a period of time while driving it, increasing the odds that identifying evidence was transferred in the process.

It would be a coup if forensics testing were to come back with some type of evidence from that vehicle linking this incident to a specific suspect.

Yeah, I do wonder if things went a bit sideways here. The broken window seems to indicate that the women might have locked themselves in the car, and the window was shattered to gain access. There's the possibility that there was direct contact with the car, and an outside possibility that the perpetrator (s) cut themselves.

 

[shefner]

Yeah, I do wonder if things went a bit sideways here. The broken window seems to indicate that the women might have locked themselves in the car, and the window was shattered to gain access. There's the possibility that there was direct contact with the car, and an outside possibility that the perpetrator (s) cut themselves.

Right. And I play this scenario through my mind in various ways. But in every instance, the glass was undoubtedly shattered from the outside in. From there the perpetrator would need to reach inside and unlock the door and extract the victim. Close contact with the vehicle would be a certainty.

 

[MassGuy]

Right. And I play this scenario through my mind in various ways. But in every instance, the glass was undoubtedly shattered from the outside in. From there the perpetrator would need to reach inside and unlock the door and extract the victim. Close contact with the vehicle would be a certainty.

And with that, the potential to cut oneself.

 

[simlyme]

I'm thinking like everyone else here ? Would it make more sense that some type of farming vehicle was used in the taking of the Moms, so not to get any attention from a passerby ? It wouldn't look out of place where they were and had plenty of time to get rid of them or hide them . This is horrible !!!

 

[Ozarka]

I would think that if the window was shattered from the outside to gain access, the victims (or at least the driver) would have been incapacitated or they would have driven away.