OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024

[nao]

Moo.. he would need to be parked close by waiting for them coming down the hwy.

 

[NDreu]

I wonder what the ground is like out there. Looks like the weather had been dry for several days with temperatures in the mid-60’s on Saturday. Would there be shoe prints or tire tracks that might aid authorities in knowing if there was one or more perpetrators? Were there tracks left that might help determine if there was only one get-away vehicle and if it was a truck with trailer?
With the large level of police presence at the scene, I hope such potential evidence wasn’t compromised.

I like @otto ’s thoughts concerning a horse trailer being used in the commission of this crime. They can be challenging to maneuver and more noticeable on the roadways.

Even in a rural area, it’s still risky to abduct two adults in broad daylight.

In the news clip of law enforcement driving around the area there seemed to be a lot of dirt kicking up so things looked dry and dusty.

Four Corners is exactly 7 miles from Road L where the car was found. Four Corners was the designated meeting spot where Veronica and Tifany were to do exchange.

The distance from the found vehicle and a Seaboard pig farm is 1 mile and exactly 1.5 miles from several abandoned Elkhart Co-Op.

 

[BrownRice]

Moo.. he would need to be parked close by waiting for them coming down the hwy.

It could be they were followed from the beginning by one accomplice who was giving updates to when they’d be coming thru. When they got close, the other party set up an obstacle in the road to ambush them (like Jared Bridegan). But any scenario is so risky on an open road, even without a lot of thru traffic.

 

[NDreu]

Curious about the cell towers in the area and if all the carriers had spotty coverage or if one or two had better coverage? There apparently was a cell tower about 1.2 miles from the found vehicle location but reporters driving the area report spotty coverage around the found vehicle site.

I haven’t heard any reports about the cell coverage at 4 Corners but I do wonder if it might not have had solid service?

 

[Citia19791]

I have been following this case and hoping for a resolution. I hope le have some good leads.

IMO and just speculation, I think this was an abduction but perps are not connected to the actual custody case. I feel that VB could have been a target for something else eg possibly had a stalker?
Imo, I feel like the perp/perps were aware of the meet-up and decided to ambush VB on the open highway where her defences might have been lower. I think JK being with her was collateral damage and they may forced them to pull over with a gun. I feel like perps were aware of bad blood between VB and TA, so any possible investigation would be focused on TA, allowing them to have some breathing space while getting rid of VB and JK’s bodies.

 

[tatertot]

Devices such as Airtags being misused to track and stalk targets have been in the news, though as I understand their range is limited. Still, I hope LE reviews any available video of the SUV in the days before the disappearance, in case someone appeared on video hiding a device on it. It might have been used by the perp to keep track of the vehicle in its travel and then intercept it. Of course it was very likely removed after the intercept, but does anyone know if those things "ping" their locations like cell phones?

This case brings to mind the 2005, local-to-me Dr. Moonda murder case. It involved what initially seemed to be a highway robbery of two travelers who had pulled over to switch drivers, but the technical forensics on (circa 2005) cell phones and towers proved vital in the prosecution. I am in no way suggesting either of the women was complicit in this case (unlike the Moonda case, where the unharmed party was found to have arranged the staged robbery) but it's a good read on how the case was solved.

 

[ErinC]

With so much interest in gun ownership in the last 3-4 years, I am a bit surprised that the two women did not seem to have a firearm with them. Maybe because of having children in the car, but Veronica had been concerned enough to request police protection . . . Are the gun laws in Kansas and Oklahoma lax or tight? Since I see that area as "Old West", I'd think the percentage of gun owners is high.

Honestly, we don't know that they didn't have one. A gun is only as useful as the person who operates it, and someone without LE or military training might not be able to draw quickly enough for it to be useful. Also, killing someone isn't easy for most (MOST) people. If they hesitate even for a second, it's so easy for a criminal to disarm the person and possibly use the gun against them. Many people don't carry because they know they would hesitate and there's no sense in essentially giving the perpetrator an extra gun to use. Using a firearm in self-defense can be a great deal harder than it looks.

 

[PawneeDew]

How could the abductor(s) be certain they could stop the victim's car?

Bogus traffic stop? Illegal police bar?

Women didn't realize what was happening until it was too late? Known assailant, recognized by V? Locked doors no match for a dummy billyclub?

Alternately, two abductors, two vehicles. Combination pit maneuver and...

Whatever happened, it likely happened fast. Maybe forced into a trunk, dealt with at a secluded location.

Granted I watch too many crime shows, but something caused them to change course/stop...

JMO

Do we know who was driving?

 

[Rush4087]

I suspect (no inside info) that the parties agreed to that area as the pickup point during that court appearance. <modsnip: sleuthing non POI> I certainly wish the drop off would have been done in front of a police station, busy store, etc...

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

Maybe courts allow designated pick up locations to be more conveniently located for those with custody (or temp custody), idk.

I do think that Four Corners was a very poor choice (by whoever chose it) as the designated regular pick up location due to it’s relative desolation and lack of public services. Elkhart would have made much more sense imo. Both parties could have made the trip on St. Rte. 56

All jmo

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“Our Cherokee Nation Marshals worked throughout the night with many of our partner law enforcement agencies on this search and recovery. We want to find answers for this individual and get them back to their family,” Buhl said.

The Cherokee Nation Marshals dive team recovered the body at the bottom of a 20-foot well on a farm just north of 412 off State Highway 10.

Cherokee Nation: Body recovered from well in Kansas, Oklahoma

The Cherokee Nation Marshals dive team recovered the body at the bottom of a 20-foot well on a farm just north of 412 off State Highway 10.

www.fox23.com

 

[NDreu]

Do we know who was driving?

It was VBs car. Blue/purple KIA SUV. I would assume VB drove as it was her vehicle but we don’t have confirmation of that from LE.

 

[Valhall]

Do you know which of the vertical roads might be the “correction line”? I believe the local that first saw the vehicle referred to a gravel road off of the correction line.

This was a new term to me so I went looking and found this:

Correction Lines are designed to adjust for the curvature of the earth, so roads north of a correction line and roads south of a correction line may not line up. When reading a map, determine if the location or destination is above or below the Correction line.

We have several roads in Oklahoma which have corrections for the surveys. Remember that this area was surveyed as several separate territories, Indian and Oklahoma, with different meridian lines (Indian versus Cimarron, etc.) and so when the surveys met up, they had to correct any mismatch. The car was located AT the correction point, that's the curve you see on the north-south running Hwy 95 where the car was located.

 

[Trino]

Thanks for your comments here @nhmemorymaker

You are right. It helps to differentiate between material facts and hearsay, otherwise it adds to the existing confusion.

I am thinking like you. If I passed by an abandoned car for a few days, I might call it in. But not if I've only seen it there a brief time because I would assume the owner is planning to return for it.

The only reason I would call about a recently abandoned vehicle is if it appeared to be a crime scene. I would call if I noticed the doors were standing open, windows were shattered out, or if there was blood, scattered clothing, e

What did the perps do with the women? Doesn't look good. If they were killed and just left outside, turkey vultures would indicate their location. Other possibilities are wells, a farm. <modsnip - sleuthing non POI

If the disappearance is totally custody, I don't see how anyone could think they wouldn't be a suspect. If the disappearance is other, the outcome might not even reveal a suspect. OSIB has their hands full on this one.

 

[windrower]

Based on the video, the driver was going north on 95 and the police vehicles were on the west side of L Rd near the intersection with 95. I originally thought the car was found on NO620 Rd which is a few hundred feet south on 95. After viewing the video, I realized the angle was wrong for it to be NO620 Rd.
I wonder if a vehicle was either pulled across 95 south forcing the victims to turn on to L Rd or VB was told to go to L Rd, right off 95, to meet for the pickup. If the latter was the case, they may have been told it was safer than having the children get out on the busier 95.
VB may not have felt comfortable with this new location, but was excited for her daughter’s birthday party and may have felt safe because she was with JK which had her let down her guard a bit.
ETA that I don’t believe Nicole’s statement about the location of the vehicle being on 95 is correct.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/img_0353-jpeg.495496/

Veronica and Jilian were driving South. Video-man is driving North. Veronica's car is to the right (East); on the passenger side of Video-man. He would see the passenger side of Veronica's car as it was facing the opposite direction (per planned route) of Video-man.

It seems like Veronica and Jilian were directed off Hwy 95 to the side road, where they were ambushed before they arrived at Road L.

View attachment 495671

otto, I don’t think your depiction is correct.

I tried to link @OldCop’s image of the roads, not sure why it doesn’t come through with the quote. But where he put the red Xs is where I think all the vehicles are lined up along Road L. On your map, they would be to the left (west) of your red circle.

Anyway, I believe, like OldCop, that video man was driving north on 95, and Veronica’s car was on Road L to the WEST, with the driver’s side of her car facing south and visible to 95. Road L is an east-west road where it intersects 95.

I also think video man was driving AND filming; you can see his left door rear view mirror in the video.

How did the Veronica’s car end up there? A few scenarios come to mind, but no way to know yet.

Prayers continue for the families to get the answers they need.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Was waiting to hear confirmation of the children being safe. At least we have it now. Where are these women?

The sheriff’s office has turned the investigation over to the OSBI.
“We’re still looking into where and when they were last seen,” McKee said.
McKee said no children are missing.

Foul play suspected in the disappearance of 2 Kansas women whose vehicle was found in Oklahoma

Foul play is suspected in the disappearance of two Kansas women whose vehicle was found abandoned in the Oklahoma Panhandle last weekend, authorities said Friday.

www.koco.com

 

[Valhall]

Anyway, I believe, like OldCop, that video man was driving north on 95, and Veronica’s car was on Road L to the WEST, with the driver’s side of her car facing south and visible to 95. Road L is an east-west road where it intersects 95.

I also think video man was driving AND filming; you can see his left door rear view mirror in the video.

This is correct.

 

[bluevioletfour]

“Our Cherokee Nation Marshals worked throughout the night with many of our partner law enforcement agencies on this search and recovery. We want to find answers for this individual and get them back to their family,” Buhl said.

The Cherokee Nation Marshals dive team recovered the body at the bottom of a 20-foot well on a farm just north of 412 off State Highway 10.

Cherokee Nation: Body recovered from well in Kansas, Oklahoma

The Cherokee Nation Marshals dive team recovered the body at the bottom of a 20-foot well on a farm just north of 412 off State Highway 10.

www.fox23.com

I'm at the point I'm pretty sure this won't have a happy ending, so I was relieved when I first read this post thinking maybe one of the families could have some closure. After using Google maps, it seems that Keye, OK to Kansas, OK is approximately 7 hours driving time. Not saying that it couldn't be one of the victims, but that's a long ways to travel with a victim. It didn't mention anything about how long they thought body had been in well, but I wonder how the landowner knew to call in that tip? I have hope that LE is finding answers and getting closer to making arrest(s).

 

[Chimera]

I have been following this case and hoping for a resolution. I hope le have some good leads.

IMO and just speculation, I think this was an abduction but perps are not connected to the actual custody case. I feel that VB could have been a target for something else eg possibly had a stalker?
Imo, I feel like the perp/perps were aware of the meet-up and decided to ambush VB on the open highway where her defences might have been lower. I think JK being with her was collateral damage and they may forced them to pull over with a gun. I feel like perps were aware of bad blood between VB and TA, so any possible investigation would be focused on TA, allowing them to have some breathing space while getting rid of VB and JK’s bodies.

Bbm.
Good points .
I'm wondering how they'd be aware of the meeting place as most people not connected to the pick up would hardly know what exact road they were going to be on ?
Omo.

 

[AugustWest]

To help those who question why the drop off location was specified as Four Corners, I wanted to add context. The entirety of the panhandle has around 30,000 persons living there. This is around the size of, say, Greenville, TX, which is a relatively small satellite community of Dallas. The largest town is Guymon, OK at around 13,000 residents, with the next being Hooker, OK at around 2,000. Persons out there make plans to go to the grocery store or a gas station as a day trip, not a quick errand. Stargazers/astronomers consider the panhandle to be one of the best spots in the entirety of the United States for doing so, as there are no lights there to disturb viewing. There simply aren't very many good options to choose for a pickup spot.

Link: Oklahoma panhandle - Wikipedia

 

[NDreu]

We have several roads in Oklahoma which have corrections for the surveys. Remember that this area was surveyed as several separate territories, Indian and Oklahoma, with different meridian lines (Indian versus Cimarron, etc.) and so when the surveys met up, they had to correct any mismatch. The car was located AT the correction point, that's the curve you see on the north-south running Hwy 95 where the car was located.

Thanks for explaining this. I kept hearing references to correction lines and was honestly confused about what was meant and wasn’t sure if the correction line was the curved portion of the road or the vertical portion.

So, the gravel road portion where the car was found was the area around the correction road which was the curved portion on the map? Just wanted to make sure I understood it properly as seeing the video from the local TV station wasn’t exactly clear to me.

Thanks