Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[Cryptic]

If one person is entitled to personal protection, then all people are and that's impossible.

Short, too the point, and..... very well said. I think that this distills the concept down to its core element.

 

[Odeto BJ]

Not to be morbid, but I wonder if cement was poured on to of them and if that would slow decomp. The PCA specifically states TC buried concrete in the hole before March 30. It does not state what the hole was filled with, just that it was filled. I admit I don't know why people would bury concrete to begin with, but it made me wonder if he also placed old concrete or fresh cement on top of the bodies before covering with dirt.

Arbitrary bits of old concrete piled into the hole would not do much to *advertiser censored* decomposition. Pouring concrete over the bodies would: but thats quite a production because the perpetrators couldn't very well order RediMix; and mixing concrete on site would require the import of a bunch of other raw materials (sand or crusher fines, crushed rock or sized stone) as well as the cement itself. If we can accept that (2) bodies side by side take at least 4-foot of width and 6-feet of length and 20" of depth to cover: thats just more than a normal pickup truck can carry in terms of material...And using a 5-foot mixer, it would take about 70 minutes to mix and dump; and you would need a source of power to drive the mixer. You would not be able to put dirt on top of that concrete for at least an hour if it was to maintain any integrity; and at least some of the participants were gone from the site before noon.

The 10-foot depth below a dam: that could imply that the bodies were actually submerged; and certainly that would change the decomposition conditions.

 

[Artis]

Just because someone is disappeared from us, does not mean that they are disappeared from LE radar, despite any public comments that may be contrary to that. JMO

Oh, he's on their radar, alright, but in what way is the question. He's named in their own <modsnip: profanity> arrest affidavit as being at the scene of the crime.

 

[Artis]

No, and I think that's very sad. Poor little girl, all ready for her birthday party, and instead this. Every birthday, for the rest of her life, will remind her of this tragic event.

JMO

The loss is unimaginable. She lost her mother, while excitedly waiting for her and lost her (psycho) grandmother who she was, no doubt, also attached to and her loser of a father is in court ordered rehab. Same for her brother. I hope they're in the care of loving family. Then there are Jilian's kids. Dunno anything about them but another unfathomable trauma losing their mother like that. How anyone begins to explain to children in these cases is beyond me. I suppose if they're very young, it has to be really gradual but, eventually, they have to be given the full horrible story. Talk about trauma.

 

[Universecalling]

Fair assessment. While people may not want to hear it, LE has no obligation to actually protect anyone and that's even been ruled to be so by the SCOTUS. They aren't body guards (except for criminals being moved around). As everyone knows, domestic disputes are the worst and the last thing LE wants to be involved in. I'm not making excuses for LE, either, because I'm neutral on them. If one person is entitled to personal protection, then all people are and that's impossible.

Agreed.
I think where this gets muddy is the fact that VB stated to the court she’s fearful and therefore requested the exchanges be accompanied by a deputy.
This was granted for some time.
Until it wasn’t…

Logistically and fiscally this isn’t possible for everyone and in every (or most) custody cases.

And yes, there’s an option they could have gone to the station to do the exchange…but something tells me TA would not give that grace to VB. And that sheriff saying theres no need for LE present during the exchanges was exactly how TA wanted it to play out.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I’m not sure what we’re debating at this point? I’m not asking anyone to be a fortune teller. I’m saying it’s a minimal investment to have a safe exchange site. I’ve never put parameters on that statement. I do think the sheriff was wrong to say because he hadn’t witnessed any reason for concern was to be seen as the equivalent that there must not be any reason for concern. Custody with contentious atmosphere is enough reason. The whole point of a safe exchange is to PREVENT escalation.

With so many horrid custody cases ending up in murders, I feel very strongly that all public servant dealing with these cases are rethinking and rewriting their policies... moo.

 

[Simply Southern]

Nancy Grace's April 16 publication: "BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY" had something I'd not heard before.​

According to one of the guests, Dr. William Morrone, Medical Examiner etc., the bodies of VB and JK were not decomposed as much as they should have been if they were placed in the ground the night they were killed.

Now, from the info from the burner phones, I personally wonder about the accuracy of Dr. Morrone's assessment and if he has factored in the chilly nights and especially the burial at 10 feet.

Has anyone else seen this?

How would he have this information? Isn't he a consultant ?

Moo

 

[nhmemorymaker]

No, and I think that's very sad. Poor little girl, all ready for her birthday party, and instead this. Every birthday, for the rest of her life, will remind her of this tragic event.

JMO

I have a hunch the little girl knew nothing about the party, but so true that she WILL have to connect her very birth date with terrible terrible loss. Forever. She is young...experts -maybe -- should change her birthday and explain it all to her with help--wjen she is closer to her adult years. Oh God, the future so full of triggers.

 

[SteveP]

How would he have this information? Isn't he a consultant ?

Moo

If he had anything at all to do with the case, he would not be on Nancy Grace's podcast, talking about the condition of the said bodies. He may be a consultant for her show, as he is on frequently, I believe, but I feel pretty certain he has absolutely nothing to do with this case, and almost surely, no firsthand knowledge of it. JMO

 

[Bigditch]

I don’t know, I guess it is good to have as many perspectives and investigators, and opinions, whether journalist, publishing, or news media and experts shining light wherever they can on this case IMO.

By comparison, I am still shaking my head at that judge I believe it was that appeared on NN IIRC? MOO

If I was the sheriff, LE, or CPS in (Keyes, OK) and someone said they needed my help because they were afraid to cross the street in front of Granny's house, I'd interrupt my dinner to walk them safely to the other side. Just sayin

 

[Simply Southern]

If he had anything at all to do with the case, he would not be on Nancy Grace's podcast, talking about the condition of the said bodies. He may be a consultant for her show, as he is on frequently, I believe, but I feel pretty certain he has absolutely nothing to do with this case, and almost surely, no firsthand knowledge of it. JMO

I totally agree.

 

[ClearAhead]

FIVE people, according to CW but PG is being disappeared from this whole thing. This is not okay.

If it’s not okay, what can be done about it??

For all we know, the daughter misunderstood, she retracted that part of her statement and PG was proven not to be involved. The onus is not on LE to report to us but we do know he hasn’t escaped their attention as he was interviewed. I’ve learned often what is presumed to be facts early on changes as the case and investigation progresses.

 

[freckles]

Not all police stations are staffed and the building isn’t accessible, especially on weekends. Ours is not. If you go there, there is a telephone on the wall to connect to dispatch

 

[CuriousCricket]

The loss is unimaginable. She lost her mother, while excitedly waiting for her and lost her (psycho) grandmother who she was, no doubt, also attached to and her loser of a father is in court ordered rehab. Same for her brother. I hope they're in the care of loving family. Then there are Jilian's kids. Dunno anything about them but another unfathomable trauma losing their mother like that. How anyone begins to explain to children in these cases is beyond me. I suppose if they're very young, it has to be really gradual but, eventually, they have to be given the full horrible story. Talk about trauma.

But did the children know Veronica was on her way to pick them up and take them with her for a family birthday party? I suspect TA never told them that. She had them spend the night with the Cooks, members of the Misfits group, then picked them up around noon. Did they even know visitation was supposed to take place that day?
My guess would be that she'd tell the kids their mother didn't want to see them. Couldn't stay off drugs long enough to put forth some effort, etc. to come for visitation. In the meanwhile, from the court records, and if my memory works, it seemed TA was canceling visitation and otherwise keeping the children from VB.

 

[Cool Cats]

But did the children know Veronica was on her way to pick them up and take them with her for a family birthday party? I suspect TA never told them that. She had them spend the night with the Cooks, members of the Misfits group, then picked them up around noon. Did they even know visitation was supposed to take place that day?
My guess would be that she'd tell the kids their mother didn't want to see them. Couldn't stay off drugs long enough to put forth some effort, etc. to come for visitation. In the meanwhile, from the court records, and if my memory works, it seemed TA was canceling visitation and otherwise keeping the children from VB.

Keeping her own son from his kids to the point LE was called but no help. TA convinced the cop that the kids were better off with her..... 2 Cents

 

[Cool Cats]

FIVE people, according to CW but PG is being disappeared from this whole thing. This is not okay.

I would be a little upset if I was arrested for a double murder and kidnapping just because a 16 year old girl said she was told by her mom that I helped kill and kidnap 2 people.

Hopefully LE would talk to me and rule me out through evidence.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

But did the children know Veronica was on her way to pick them up and take them with her for a family birthday party? I suspect TA never told them that. She had them spend the night with the Cooks, members of the Misfits group, then picked them up around noon. Did they even know visitation was supposed to take place that day?
My guess would be that she'd tell the kids their mother didn't want to see them. Couldn't stay off drugs long enough to put forth some effort, etc. to come for visitation. In the meanwhile, from the court records, and if my memory works, it seemed TA was canceling visitation and otherwise keeping the children from VB.

That's how I see it with TA talking to the kids, and now they seem to be with veronicas family???? How mixed up would any of us expect them to be. ???

 

[Knox]

Arbitrary bits of old concrete piled into the hole would not do much to *advertiser censored* decomposition. Pouring concrete over the bodies would: but thats quite a production because the perpetrators couldn't very well order RediMix; and mixing concrete on site would require the import of a bunch of other raw materials (sand or crusher fines, crushed rock or sized stone) as well as the cement itself. If we can accept that (2) bodies side by side take at least 4-foot of width and 6-feet of length and 20" of depth to cover: thats just more than a normal pickup truck can carry in terms of material...And using a 5-foot mixer, it would take about 70 minutes to mix and dump; and you would need a source of power to drive the mixer. You would not be able to put dirt on top of that concrete for at least an hour if it was to maintain any integrity; and at least some of the participants were gone from the site before noon.

The 10-foot depth below a dam: that could imply that the bodies were actually submerged; and certainly that would change the decomposition conditions.

I'm curious if it was really a dam, I haven't really looked at the photo's. Is there an aerial view of the area? I thought it was more of a pond with elevated earthen banks? Most are excavated, then re-compacted to prevent seepage. Depth to groundwater in that area appears to be around 100'.

Was the footprint of the 10' hole big enough to bury the Kia?

 

[Artis]

If it’s not okay, what can be done about it??

For all we know, the daughter misunderstood, she retracted that part of her statement and PG was proven not to be involved. The onus is not on LE to report to us but we do know he hasn’t escaped their attention as he was interviewed. I’ve learned often what is presumed to be facts early on changes as the case and investigation progresses.

Probably nothing will be done about it, as usual. What should be done is a clear and precise explanation, given at a presser, with questions from reporters, about why he was named (not once, but twice; previous attempt in Kansas and the actual murders). If that information was inaccurate, then it should be publicly stated, at the presser and the man completely cleared. He was named in a legal document, used to arrest everyone else named, so it's not like this is some random gossip. It's on the record. It would take an investigative reporter to keep hammering on it or angry family members, though that's happened in the past, in even worse crimes, and this kind of stuff still barely saw the light of day. I completely disagree that LE doesn't need to report to the public. Who pays their salaries and for the investigations? They are public servants and accountable to the people, not the other way around. This is a double murder and the public is entitled to ALL of the information. This group, "God Misfits" <modsnip> are exactly the type of groups the FBI infiltrates with informants. There is every reason to believe that's why Grice is being erased and protected, until I see otherwise.

 

[Artis]

But did the children know Veronica was on her way to pick them up and take them with her for a family birthday party? I suspect TA never told them that. She had them spend the night with the Cooks, members of the Misfits group, then picked them up around noon. Did they even know visitation was supposed to take place that day?
My guess would be that she'd tell the kids their mother didn't want to see them. Couldn't stay off drugs long enough to put forth some effort, etc. to come for visitation. In the meanwhile, from the court records, and if my memory works, it seemed TA was canceling visitation and otherwise keeping the children from VB.

Good possibility that she told them hurtful lies like that