Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

Status
Not open for further replies.
Do you know what time his car was captured heading west? I don’t have the PCA in front of me.

It seems to me, if his story was true and he was on the trails from 12-1:30 that his car would be captured heading west around 1:30-1:35 as that would be his most direct route home from the cps building.

Was his car captured again heading back east?

Thank you
1:27 pm a vehicle resembling his 2016 Ford Focus was caught heading west on CR300 north by the camera at Hoosier Harvestore. This coincides with RA’s statement to DD that he arrived and parked at 130pm and was in the trails until 330pm

Actually apply the brakes here. Military time was used in this narrative 1330-1530.
Let me process this.



He also did not state that he parked East of the Hoosier Harvestore at the cemetery or at the trail head at Mears Farm but instead west of the Hoosier Harvestore and entering at Freedom Bridge which he is West of the camera.
Per the PCA that I have below. He parked at the “Old Farm Bureau” building which is believed to be the now demolished Family Services building.

He was spotted by several witnesses on the trial and then recorded by the victims at 2:13pm abducting them at gunpoint.
He wasn’t seen again until 3:57pm as he walked back to his car (westward) like he had gotten into a fight.
 
1:27 pm a vehicle resembling his 2016 Ford Focus was caught heading west on CR300 north by the camera at Hoosier Harvestore. This coincides with RA’s statement to DD that he arrived and parked at 130pm and was in the trails until 330pm

Actually apply the brakes here. Military time was used in this narrative 1330-1530.
Let me process this.
13:30 to 15:30= 1:30 to 3:30
He also did not state that he parked East of the Hoosier Harvestore at the cemetery or at the trail head at Mears Farm but instead west of the Hoosier Harvestore and entering at Freedom Bridge which he is West of the camera.
Per the PCA that I have below. He parked at the “Old Farm Bureau” building which is believed to be the now demolished Family Services building.

He was spotted by several witnesses on the trial and then recorded by the victims at 2:13pm abducting them at gunpoint.
He wasn’t seen again until 3:57pm as he walked back to his car (westward) like he had gotten into a fight.
 
13:30 to 15:30= 1:30 to 3:30
Oh I know my question is Did RA use military time in his statement to DD??

Just me pondering. As it was not used at all throughout the PCA and it’s only used in the narrative between RA and DD.

Just noticed it and it kind has me aghast I didn’t notice it before.
RA spent 10 years in National Guard as we have established. If he used this terminology with DD then it’s more damning.
JMo
 
Well, ok, on the military terminology, I don't know it would be damning. I suppose it could be, it would indicate RA's trying to show he's something of an "insider," and thinks like one, perhaps. This is concerning in that he himself is emphasizing he has knowledge that might be superior to others, maybe even knowledge that would help him evade capture if he committed the crime. It's also looking like he's trying to show what a smart & military-oriented guy he is, (or/and views himself as such, has that mindset) and in his interview/interrogation, too, he seems to be going overboard to show he's not "intimidated." I wonder about RA's attitude towards LE generally because I'm pretty convinced now RA is BG. I'm wondering if BG...

acted alone, maybe was not thinking as clearly as he could have been;
OR if BG was acting alone, maybe somehow had access to KK's dropbox;
OR if BG is working with others.

Factors that tilt towards more than one actor: crossing of the creek. If someone were parked over by the cemetery, this makes sense. Otherwise, I don't see why the killer would create this obstacle for himself. If not thinking clearly, though, this might make sense with one actor as well.
Factors that would tilt towards some "dropbox" access: KK's comment that he was supposed to meet the girls that day, KK search of Marathon gas, KK being involved to the extent he was, failed polygraph.
Factors that tilt towards one actor: weird staged scene to throw off LE (I can't picture a band of multiple murderers getting into that), phone left behind. I don't think that phone would have been left behind if more than one actor on the scene. I almost wonder if some lone actor left that behind to taunt LE, and wonder if the scene wasn't staged to misidrect LE. That's why I'm wondering so much about RA's attitude towards LE generally. (All MOO)
 
Last edited:
Factors that tilt towards more than one actor: crossing of the creek. If someone were parked over by the cemetery, this makes sense. Otherwise, I don't see why the killer would create this obstacle for himself. If not thinking clearly, though, this might make sense with one actor as well.
Fascinating!
I barely made it past the first line before an old question resurfaced. Do we know for absolute certain that someone wasn't parked in the back of that cemetery, near the gate RL was using on Feb 16th to show people the CS which was just down the hill?
The rest, I'm still digesting.
 
This is why I question what was leaked by whom. I have not read this document yet and do believe MW and RF did leak something - the F tree photo was discussed allegedly by them in messages that were screenshot. “Leaked” photos of clothes in the creek had been out for awhile before this IIRC. Who took photos and who disseminated them. I am not convinced MW or RF is to blame for the photos of the girls’ bodies that were purportedly leaked. Given that we are now discussing a tripod (and we know LE was searching for recording devices at RL’s) I wonder if the perpetrator(s) are responsible for the more serious leak which was then blamed on MW and RF. I’d really like to see what exactly MW admits to re: specific leaked photos.

Yes. All of this.

I suspect photos were leaked and shopped loooooonnnnggggg before the fall of 2023.

All my opinion and theory. IMO MOO
 
My notes are so many that I'm now officially disorganized. Are you referring to the girls that passed BG as they were leaving? I know there were others on the bridge that day which are not regularly talked about. I don't need a link, just where this dressed in all black person was seen. KWIM?

DBM as it looks like someone else answered for me.
 
Last edited:
This is why I question what was leaked by whom. I have not read this document yet and do believe MW and RF did leak something - the F tree photo was discussed allegedly by them in messages that were screenshot. “Leaked” photos of clothes in the creek had been out for awhile before this IIRC. Who took photos and who disseminated them. I am not convinced MW or RF is to blame for the photos of the girls’ bodies that were purportedly leaked. Given that we are now discussing a tripod (and we know LE was searching for recording devices at RL’s) I wonder if the perpetrator(s) are responsible for the more serious leak which was then blamed on MW and RF. I’d really like to see what exactly MW admits to re: specific leaked photos.
Schatz, you just blew my mind.
Are you thinking that some of the leaked photos showing bodies may have been taken - not by LE - but by the actual killer(s)?
Oy, I'm up way past my bed time
 
Well OK. But, again, how is it damning to have a military background?
I feel like I'm missing something here
RA using very precise military time to tell his entering and leaving the trails is very different than what defense laid out in FM.
They made it seem that DD may have asked about a loose timeframe of 1:30-3:30. RA may have said “yes” even though he left before or around 1:30. This narrative is opposing the very precise military language used to describe what RA narrated to DD per the PCA.
If RA used the precise language as noted by DD as 1330-1530 there was no mistake he meant he was there during that period of time. This was not a miscommunication. He didn’t mean earlier or later or in the am he meant 1330-1530. Which is approximately the time he entered the trails and most likely left the crime scene.
I also think it was used to create a false sense of comradery with DD. “I’m one of you, one of the good guys” JMO

I also think 10 years of military background can prove that RA may have been highly trained and agile enough to do exactly what he is charged with all by himself.

All my opinion
 
Oh I know my question is Did RA use military time in his statement to DD??

Just me pondering. As it was not used at all throughout the PCA and it’s only used in the narrative between RA and DD.

Just noticed it and it kind has me aghast I didn’t notice it before.
RA spent 10 years in National Guard as we have established. If he used this terminology with DD then it’s more damning.
JMo
Military time is also used by "most" LE, so I can't see how that is considered more damning. Plenty of persons who are, or have served in the military still can't shake using it. MOO
 
Yes. All of this.

I suspect photos were leaked and shopped loooooonnnnggggg before the fall of 2023.

All my opinion and theory. IMO MOO
None of this removes guilt of contempt from AB and BR.
They traced the leaked documents to AB’s office and AB is on record stating they came from his office.
Only some parties were under gag/protective orders and those are the ones that are being held in contempt.
AB had a legal responsibility to protect those crime scene photos to his client and to the court.
AJMO
 
BBM

Hennessey mentions it in his POST HEARING MEMORANDUM filed 3/25/2024:

State’s Exhibit 10 consists of 20 pages of back-and-forth messages between Mr. Baldwin
and an unidentified person. The State alleged that person was Mr. Westerman. That exhibit was
admitted over objection because it contained Mr. Baldwin’s mental impressions and work
product and failed to identify the other participant. Mr. McLeland read that exchange with
advanced knowledge that it was communications regarding consultation on the case. He never
should have read it.

Then you can read the STATE’S MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF CONTEMPTUOUS CONDUCT filed on 4/1:

The screenshots from the iCloud account of Mitch Westerman. The screenshots are of
text messages between Mitch Westerman and “Andy”. Again, the messages are voluminous but
if the Court will read through them, the Court will clearly see that “Andy” is Andrew Baldwin.
In the text, “Andy” talks about writing the Franks’ memo and how it is a huge endeavor on his
part. In other messages, “Andy” encourages Mitch Westerman to reach out to the media and
push their narrative. “Andy” further states that he has already been in touch with Dateline and
spoke to them. All of this is a violation of the “Gag” order by Andrew Baldwin and the Defense.
When the State was notified of the leaked crime scene photos in early October 2023, the

Defense was on a phone conference with the Court and gave the Court the explanation that Mitch
Westerman broke in and stole the photos. When interviewed by the Indiana State Police,
Andrew Baldwin stated that he gave the Franks’ memo to Mitch Westerman to review. Then, at
the hearing on March 18th, 2024, the Defense implied that Mitch Westerman is now a consultant
of the Defense and any communication between Mitch Westerman and Andrew Baldwin should
be considered work product. The Defense has consistently altered Mitch Westerman’s
involvement in this case. Why didn’t the Defense make the Court and the State aware on the
October 10th, 2023 phone call that Mitch Westerman was a consultant and that he had access to
discovery? It is the State’s belief that the Defense was trying to conceal or diminish Mitch
Westerman’s role in the leak.
A reasonable person can deduce that the Defense was trying to hide the fact that the
Defense was intentionally leaking information. Once the State was notified of the leak, an
investigation began where the State began to gather evidence. As the State got closer to the
source of the leak, the Defense changed their story from Mitch Westerman being a criminal who
broke into their office and stole discovery to Mitch Westerman being a consultant assisting on
the Delphi case whose communication with Defense is protected work product. The Defense
intentionally violated the Court’s orders and leaked discovery information in an effort to push
their narrative out to the public to gauge public response. This was a strategic move by the
Defense in violation of the Court’s orders.

Yes - this is what I was getting at. The first indication that MW was involved on strategy and not just a friend who 'snookered' the defence came in Rozzi's memo to the Court around the time of the dismissal IIRC. But it was never backed with any evidence - just an assertion. And critically Baldwin never said any of this in the multiple communications with the Judge in the lead up to the pivotal chambers hearing.

Then at this recent march hearing it is the same thing. MW did not testify. Baldwin did not testify. Yet DH asserted MW was a consultant, and tried to assert privilege over the communications.

So I've always wondered what the actual evidence for the idea that MW was a consultant - and it seems it is based on some statements by Baldwin to law enforcement in his 2 hour interview.

Honestly I don't know why the Judge should accept that contention, given Baldwin didn't make it when he had the chance to take the Judge into his confidence about the whole MW incident. Instead he pretty clearly sought to conceal things from the Judge. Say what you want about whether he should cooperate with law enforcement but it is pretty outrageous to deceive the Judge.

Unfortunately we can not see the screenshots of the messages between Baldwin & MW, but I think further things here speak against the defence version. Baldwin could of course have testified as to what his real relationship with MW was, and how it was legit per the attorneys who gave evidence in support of collaboration with 3rd parties. But IMO he could not do so, because then he would have been cross examined about the messages e.g. apparently telling MW to contact the media.

The Judge is not an idiot here. If Baldwin won't say it in court, why should she believe it?
 
Last edited:
A simple thought -- was the search organized in any way? Did LE give instructions?

I've never been involved in a search for missing persons, but I can imagine an instruction like this, "if you see anything, do not touch or move it. Take a photo and alert LE".

That could explain why civilians might have taken crime scene photos.
 
RA using very precise military time to tell his entering and leaving the trails is very different than what defense laid out in FM.
They made it seem that DD may have asked about a loose timeframe of 1:30-3:30. RA may have said “yes” even though he left before or around 1:30. This narrative is opposing the very precise military language used to describe what RA narrated to DD per the PCA.
If RA used the precise language as noted by DD as 1330-1530 there was no mistake he meant he was there during that period of time. This was not a miscommunication. He didn’t mean earlier or later or in the am he meant 1330-1530. Which is approximately the time he entered the trails and most likely left the crime scene.
Gotcha! I think...
So the defense is arguing that RA remembers the discussion/interview/tip differently than what is noted in the DD/RA narrative in the PCA? Involving a different range of times (earlier)?
 
None of this removes guilt of contempt from AB and BR.
They traced the leaked documents to AB’s office and AB is on record stating they came from his office.
Only some parties were under gag/protective orders and those are the ones that are being held in contempt.
AB had a legal responsibility to protect those crime scene photos to his client and to the court.
AJMO

IN any event, MS has reported many times that the source of the RL PCA was in fact RL himself, and this is well known to journalists covering the case. RL's attorney obtained it in the course of the investigation, quite properly, and RL gave it to journos. That is not a leak.

 
Damning because it indicates military background.
IMO
Damning because it also may have been used to feign familiarity through association/comradery. JMO

They use military time here in Europe, so I did not find it strange IF the LE put the time as 13:30-15:30, but IF RA used it?? I am STILL getting use to using military time! LOL!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
192
Guests online
2,464
Total visitors
2,656

Forum statistics

Threads
594,347
Messages
18,003,310
Members
229,372
Latest member
HelpfulorNosyAF
Back
Top