Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[legomonster]

Mom CT telling her daughter to clean out the truck forced her daughter to be a participant. IMO, Mrs CT was not some sweet little woman coerced into misdeeds by evil TA. There's some deep-seated darkness there. The couple of CT and CT scare me as much or more than TA and TC.
(The suspect initials in this case are harder for me to keep track of than any other case, for some reason)

Such a fantastic point. It's insane to me how much Cora and Cole were willing to murder for other children and not only that make their daughter an unwilling participant to such a vile crime. Forcing her to be an accessory to a murder or worse in a bid perhaps to scare her into silence. I can't imagine what that poor daughter thought about herself, through the years leading up this. There are so many levels of sadness.

 

[Rixey]

Nancy Grace's April 16 publication: "BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY" had something I'd not heard before.​

According to one of the guests, Dr. William Morrone, Medical Examiner etc., the bodies of VB and JK were not decomposed as much as they should have been if they were placed in the ground the night they were killed.

Now, from the info from the burner phones, I personally wonder about the accuracy of Dr. Morrone's assessment and if he has factored in the chilly nights and especially the burial at 10 feet.

Has anyone else seen this?

Many things can change the rate of decomposition, some more than others. Lime can be used to help mask/reduce the expected smell associated with decomposition, but it also reduces the rate of decomposition in the short term. I'd imagine as farmers/ranchers they all have plenty of lime around for other uses, and have likely used it on animal carcasses in the past, so it's entirely plausible it was used in this instance.

The old theory was that in addition to reducing odors, lime would speed up decomposition immediately, but recent research has shown that to be incorrect. This group had to research getting someone to leave their house and bought into the Wile E Coyote anvil plan, I doubt they considered that maybe there was any new info regarding lime that contradicted what they learned decades ago.

JMO

 

[GRT]

Actually, this is just the kind of thing that an anti-government group could get behind, IMO. The government deciding where her grandchildren should or should not go, and claiming to know best what is good for the children and interfering in the lives of their families. As one of the members said to her daughter, they were on a mission. They truly believed, IMO, that they were saving the children and I'm sure that they saw Jilian as an agent of the government in the role she was occupying that day.

I agree with this.

Cole T posted a quote attributed to Dante Alighieri on his Facebook on March 13th: "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

This is just MOO, but I think he was likely talking about the plans to kill VB. Who knows what TA said to convince the others, but as you say, the claim was that the children were at risk of abuse by their mother, yet the "government" seemed ready to allow them go with her -- unsupervised -- and that created a moral crisis.

Plus, he posted other quotes, such as one from Aristotle back in November of last year, that states, "In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no place; it is the moral duty of individuals to uphold what is right, despite societal norms."

Add that to the idea QAnon types came up with that there is a cabal of child molesters out there in the ethos that we can't quite find, and suddenly killing VB is not just about keeping her away from her kids but also about the larger anti-government movement.

All JMOO

 

[GRT]

---

By the time the group appears in court to enter a plea, I thoroughly expect TA's lawyer to be jumping up and down, denying her "confession" and blaming LE for not properly mirandzing her.

I wonder if any of them will go quietly.

RSBM

I have a feeling all four will go for something along the lines of Not Guilty by reason of defense of others.

They'll try to say killing VB was "justifiable homicide" because it was necessary to protect the children. Who knows whether that will fly in their little isolated corner of the world, but the snag will be Jilian, because there was no reason to harm a hair on her head. Who knows what excuse they'll come up with for that.

All MOO...

 

[SteveP]

RSBM

I have a feeling all four will go for something along the lines of Not Guilty by reason of defense of others.

They'll try to say killing VB was "justifiable homicide" because it was necessary to protect the children. Who knows whether that will fly in their little isolated corner of the world, but the snag will be Jilian, because there was no reason to harm a hair on her head. Who knows what excuse they'll come up with for that.

All MOO...

BBM...I see absolutely no way this trial will ever take place in their little isolated corner of the world. The defense attorney may be happy to have a trial play out there, but I think the prosecution will certainly make a motion, that will be granted, to have a change of venue, as the state is also entitled to a fair trial. JMO

 

[Cryptic]

I'm curious if it was really a dam..... I thought it was more of a pond with elevated earthen banks?

I am thinking you are right about it being associated with a pond*. Going into wet trivia....

Nearby Texas is under Spanish based water ownership law. Spanish law based concepts are hyper sensitive about the near inherent public nature of creeks and water ways.

Private dams of any kind over a public stream are illegal in Texas. Given the very broad definition of "public creek" in the Texas, private dams are, by extension, essentially non existent in the state.

Oklahoma is likely under Anglo based water concepts. Anglo based water law allows for more private creeks than Spanish based laws. But... the core concepts of a dry, ranching state where creek flow is also hugely important might make private dams very rare, and perhaps non existent, in Oklahoma as well.

* Even ponds are subject to regulation as water is still owned by the state. In dry ranching country, pond construction is probably not taken lightly. I wonder if any ponds owned by the perpetrators have required permits etc.? Or.... were they given an "exemption"?

 

[doublestop]

Cole T posted a quote attributed to Dante Alighieri on his Facebook on March 13th: "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

Perhaps he was referring to PG, who, after the bizarre "kill her with an anvil" plan, decided that getting rid of VB was not his problem and he was staying out of it.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

BBM...I see absolutely no way this trial will ever take place in their little isolated corner of the world. The defense attorney may be happy to have a trial play out there, but I think the prosecution will certainly make a motion, that will be granted, to have a change of venue, as the state is also entitled to a fair trial. JMO

I think the trial will be moved to another “little isolated place” in Oklahoma so these 4 can have a jury of their peers.

If PG was involved, but not charged, and he witnessed 2 pretty, young women get beaten with a hammer and possibly buried alive, the jury of farmers and cowboys may hang the prosecutors.

 

[al66pine]

Paul G. Should LE Arrest or Clear?

First, a few posts have stated - LE should ARREST PG.
Q: Can someone? anyone? pls? C & P from one of the affidavits the language LE used to specify his actions constituting a crim offense? What crime? And a link? TiA.

And a few said LE should announce that PG is "CLEARED."
At this stage it would seem UNUSUAL imo for LE to release a public announcement that anyone has been cleared of any homicide offense relating to these deaths. Or cleared of any crime before or after.
jmo imo moo icbw

 

[JosieMae]

I doubt the prosecution will offer a plea deal to these toxic narcissists.

JMO

Not a chance. Not with the mountain of evidence. And I'm sure much more has been uncovered that we don't know about yet.

 

[SteveP]

I think the trial will be moved to another “little isolated place” in Oklahoma so these 4 can have a jury of their peers.

If PG was involved, but not charged, and he witnessed 2 pretty, young women get beaten with a hammer and possibly buried alive, the jury of farmers and cowboys may hang the prosecutors.

I do not believe that a jury of their peers must be selected from any "little isolated place". I believe murders of this scope, with at least a a couple of relatively affluent defendants, all alleged members of some fringe clan, with strong hints of anti-government beliefs, and investigation by both the OSBI and FBI, probably are all good indicators that this case may be moved to a larger, more urban area, for trial, for safety reasons, if nothing else. And even if the jurors ARE selected from the defendants' area, I still believe the trial will take place elsewhere. JMO

jury of one's peers
n. a guaranteed right of criminal defendants, in which "peer" means an "equal." This has been interpreted by courts to mean that the available jurors include a broad spectrum of the population, particularly of race, national origin and gender. Jury selection may include no process which excludes those of a particular race or intentionally narrows the spectrum of possible jurors. It does not mean that women are to be tried by women, Asians by Asians, or African Americans by African Americans.

Legal Dictionary - Law.com

ALM's Law.com online Real Life Dictionary of the Law. The easiest-to-read, most user-friendly guide to legal terms. Use it free!

dictionary.law.com

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

I do not believe that a jury of their peers must be selected from any "little isolated place". I believe murders of this scope, with at least a a couple of relatively affluent defendants, alleged members of some fringe, anti-government clan, and investigation by both the OSBI and FBI, probably are good indicators that this case will be moved to a larger, more urban area, for trial. And even if the jurors ARE selected from the defendants' area, I still believe the trial will take place elsewhere. JMO

jury of one's peers
n. a guaranteed right of criminal defendants, in which "peer" means an "equal." This has been interpreted by courts to mean that the available jurors include a broad spectrum of the population, particularly of race, national origin and gender. Jury selection may include no process which excludes those of a particular race or intentionally narrows the spectrum of possible jurors. It does not mean that women are to be tried by women, Asians by Asians, or African Americans by African Americans.

Legal Dictionary - Law.com

ALM's Law.com online Real Life Dictionary of the Law. The easiest-to-read, most user-friendly guide to legal terms. Use it free!

dictionary.law.com

Of course the jury pool doesn’t have to come from another area with sparce population, but the defense will want these trials (if they occur) in a similar area. The demographics of Oklahoma City and Tulsa residents are different from Keys, OK. Increasing jury diversity would likely not benefit these criminals.

 

[Songbird1973]

I am thinking you are right about it being associated with a pond*. Going into wet trivia....

Nearby Texas is under Spanish based water ownership law. Spanish law based concepts are hyper sensitive about the near inherent public nature of creeks and water ways.

Private dams of any kind over a public stream are illegal in Texas. Given the very broad definition of "public creek" in the Texas, private dams are, by extension, essentially non existent in the state.

Oklahoma is likely under Anglo based water concepts. Anglo based water law allows for more private creeks than Spanish based laws. But... the core concepts of a dry, ranching state where creek flow is also hugely important might make private dams very rare, and perhaps non existent, in Oklahoma as well.

* Even ponds are subject to regulation as water is still owned by the state. In dry ranching country, pond construction is probably not taken lightly. I wonder if any ponds owned by the perpetrators have required permits etc.? Or.... were they given an "exemption"?

In Oklahoma, a landowner owns all surface, or runoff water (ie. from rain) on their land and can do what they want with it. The "dams" in the area where the bodies were buried are very small and only collect surface water. They are not placed across a "definite stream", which is defined as containing groundwater.

The dams would be similar to the one circled in red:



The image below is from the AREA of the burials. It may be the actual site, but im not sure. There are four such dams in the picture.



"Diffuse surface water (or “runoff” as it is referred to in the Oklahoma Water Law Handbook) is the only kind of water that can be truly owned without regulation of its use.1 As a result, a landowner can collect the runoff on his or her property and use it with relatively few restrictions.2"

Oklahoma Diffuse Surface (“Runoff”) Water Law and Rules - Oklahoma State University

The rules and laws regarding diffuse surface water also known as runoff water.

extension.okstate.edu

 

[Cryptic]

good indicators that this case will be moved to a larger, more urban area, for trial.

I think that it only going to be moved if the defendants ask for it.

As you pointed out, a jury of ones peers does not mean the ability to be judged by ones ethnic group, friends, and social group etc.

But.... I think there is strong under current that the defendant gets the most advantageous legal setting. For example, they present last in Court.

As a result, I am thinking that trials stay local unless the defendant convinces a judge that they would not get a fair trial if it were held locally. The State insisting on a non local trial would seem to open a conviction up to an appeal based on:

Dear Appellate court, the State spirited me away to a distant county where nobody could accurately weigh my reputation for uhmm.... "truthfulness" and you know, "good character". These were key elements in my defense. Thus, I was denied Due Process.

In Oklahoma, a landowner owns all surface, or runoff water (ie. from rain) on their land and can do what they want with it. The "dams" in the area where the bodies were buried are very small and only collect surface water. [/URL]

Thanks for the affirmation that it was pond related. I also think your point regarding the ownership of surface water is interesting.

I suspect that any differences between Texas and Oklahoma regarding ownership of surface water and the ability of land owners to construct ponds with out regulation is due to the differing Spanish (Texas) and Anglo (Oklahoma) legal heritage of each state.

<modsnip: off topic>

 

[Bree1950]

Is it possible that if they plea guilty to the crime that they can avoid a trial and not testify to what was done to VB & JK.?

I feel it will come out because it would be part of the plea. I feel their only option will be life without parole or the DP.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

As long as she went that far, she may as well have googled how big a hole do you need to bury a Kia, and how big a horse trailer do you need to haul a Kia, if your flatbed isn't a rollback.

Or how long does a trailer or truck need to be to block a roadway?

I wish we could see the inside of that partially enclosed long neck fifth-wheel livestock trailer. I am wondering if it might contain a dividing or partitioning center section that might render it as two long stalls for the animals? And if so, perhaps there was a surprise when it was opened and the realization that VB Kia was not going to fit. MOO

 

[MyBelle]

That is exactly the kinda thing that can make you powerful in prison.
It’s the callousness of the act, the perceived power and influence outside of the prison, and money.
TA was high ranking on multiple boards (school and hospital), and was able to manipulate multiple others (not even blood related) to commit double murder of two young mothers. And she did it because of consistent narratives, daily proximity to those she manipulated, and probably some level of financial influence.
Pretty good recipe for the environment she’s going into.

I disagree. The safety of prison staff is the priority, and no inmate is allowed to become "powerful." Especially if the inmate has engaged in child abuse. Before TA lands in any prison, she will undergo a mental health evaluation.

The prison staff will not tolerate her antics inside the prison.

JMO

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Send her to a lifetime of solidarity confinement. That way she will spend forever with the person she spent a lifetime hiding from the public because if anyone knew how truly heinous and ugly she was inside it would be of course herself, Tifany Adams. Tifany didn't care to use her own blood, her own son, Wrangler to de facto custody of the children for herself. It would never be to help Wrangler get his life together enough to be a full-time parent, it was all part of Tifany Adams' master manipulation of how she was perceived. Tifany instead used her son's legal and problems with the law to create the image of herself as some false hero of the custody situation that she should have never been a part of but manipulated herself into through lies and accusations. The more accusations Tifany made about both parents would also distract others from the reality of her own situation. Tifany was on a death mission to get what she wanted no matter the cost or amount of people it would harm and affect for years to come. Make Tifany spend a lifetime with the person she hates more than anyone, her true self in solidarity confinement.

This^^^^^^^!!! I so much agree. And this particular line as well IMO:

“image of herself as some false hero of the custody situation that she should have never been a part of“

It will be interesting to see whether any others might have been involved in the long protracted custody arguments, legal proceedings, and court hearings. For children that were not her own.
MOO

 

[Walela]

Perhaps he was referring to PG, who, after the bizarre "kill her with an anvil" plan, decided that getting rid of VB was not his problem and he was staying out of it.

Perhaps he was referring to himself in his FB post....if he remained neutral he would occupy one of the hottest places whereas if he participated he could obtain a much cooler spot. moo

 

[MyBelle]

RSBM

I have a feeling all four will go for something along the lines of Not Guilty by reason of defense of others.

They'll try to say killing VB was "justifiable homicide" because it was necessary to protect the children. Who knows whether that will fly in their little isolated corner of the world, but the snag will be Jilian, because there was no reason to harm a hair on her head. Who knows what excuse they'll come up with for that.

All MOO...

I think all four will be facing the death penalty and if there is a plea offered it will be to take the death penalty off the table.
There is no such thing as "justifiable homicide" when it involves premediated kidnapping and slaughter of two human beings. Oklahoma just executed a killer of two people, and his crime wasn't premeditated.

JMO

Oklahoma executes double murderer after he nonchalantly refused right to last words: ‘Nah, I’m good’

Michael Dewayne Smith, 41, was pronounced dead at 10:19 a.m. inside the Oklahoma State Penitentiary after undergoing lethal injection Thursday.

nypost.com