OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #11

2Hope4 said:

I still don't understand the briefcase and the bank bag. Do we know if money was in the briefcase or maybe it was that file folder that was found in the truck? I honestly don't think they took money to buy the land, because they had talked to the landowner and knew the landowner lived in another state! Thus no reason to take money that day to buy the land. They had bought a house so knew that a title search needed to be done, most likely needed to be surveyed, bill of sale written, etc. I just don't get that aspect.

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So crazy that you said this, because this is what I signed on tonight to post. I was wondering if we know how much the land was listed for? If it was $50k or so, you wouldn't have $32k in cash. And why would they have the cash with them if the seller lived out of state? They wouldn't. I know several threads back we had discussed the likeliness of paying for land with cash and how that whole transaction would go when buying with cash, but it wouldn't happen if the seller is out of state.

Also, I hadn't remembered that Bobby thought his father was into gangs. It wouldn't matter if Bobby Sr was in a hospital or nursing home, he could have easily set up a murder plot. Sounds like he might have had connections. Wouldn't have been easy to trace it back to him, and he has threatened (apparently), after all.

wfgodot said:

Well, we might. Not sure about the Jamisons though.

The locked thing does bother me as until recently (like, oh, today) I didn't really consider the "left with other(s) voluntarily" idea overmuch. I always "see" it with the blocked vehicle and the glint of a gun. But I think it makes more sense, Occam's Razor-wise, at least, that they did leave with someone they knew, or thought they knew.

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I guess for me it just seems very unnatural to stop your car right in the middle of the road and leave with someone familiar. Like they were driving down the road and said hey there's (for example only)my sister, stop right there where they are and just go. Instead of saying, since they are familiar and seemingly friendly, hey follow me to park the truck at the top at the clearing just feet away. The sister in my example would have had to turn her vehicle around somewhere so it would also seem natural that she would have agreed-Since I can't actually run my own experiment, though I've been in that exact position many times (meeting with someone and parking my vehicle or friends vehicle to go with someone else) I am relying on my own experience and bias. Kind of like I am biased toward the not offering of a reward, because if it were my child and grandchild it seems to be the NATURAL (bold because I can't imagine not) thing to do.

I have misread cues before though, no doubt

Ok, here's my vote:

50% - exposure/elements
25% - murder
24% - murder-suicide
1% - WPP, alien abduction, rapture, Bigfoot, etc.

wfgodot said:

Well, we might. Not sure about the Jamisons though.

The locked thing does bother me as until recently (like, oh, today) I didn't really consider the "left with other(s) voluntarily" idea overmuch. I always "see" it with the blocked vehicle and the glint of a gun. But I think it makes more sense, Occam's Razor-wise, at least, that they did leave with someone they knew, or thought they knew.

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Sorry, just woke up from a too-long-delayed post-feast nap and don't feel like digging through old threads right now to find specific posts but, somewhere back there, there were several mentions that the abandoned truck was seen multiple times by various people prior to the day it was finally "discovered" and reported to the sheriff's office.

It could be that the truck was left unlocked initially, and maybe one of those people noticed the Jamisons' belongings and the dog inside and locked it up for safekeeping. Just to be neighborly, you know. Although locking up the dog is not especially neighborly, but people do dumb things all the time. Maybe it was assumed that whoever belonged with the truck was out hiking or something and would return shortly.

Dallen said:

So crazy that you said this, because this is what I signed on tonight to post. I was wondering if we know how much the land was listed for? If it was $50k or so, you wouldn't have $32k in cash. And why would they have the cash with them if the seller lived out of state? They wouldn't. I know several threads back we had discussed the likeliness of paying for land with cash and how that whole transaction would go when buying with cash, but it wouldn't happen if the seller is out of state.

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Was the settlement an out-of-court settlement? I can't remember. If so, if it was privately worked out between the parties involved, maybe the Jamisons didn't deposit that money in the bank to avoid IRS reporting. Or maybe they just didn't like banks.

I have a relative who keeps certain valuables in his home and he always takes these valuables with him if he's going to be away from home for any length of time, in case the house is burglarized or burns down while he's gone. We've tried and tried to convince him to use either a safe or a safety deposit box, but he just won't. Surely he's not the only person in the world who behaves this way.

So the Jamisons carrying around their cash with them doesn't necessarily strike me as anything more meaningful than they preferred to keep it with them, where they could keep an eye on it.

OkieGranny said:

Sorry, just woke up from a too-long-delayed post-feast nap and don't feel like digging through old threads right now to find specific posts but, somewhere back there, there were several mentions that the abandoned truck was seen multiple times by various people prior to the day it was finally "discovered" and reported to the sheriff's office.

It could be that the truck was left unlocked initially, and maybe one of those people noticed the Jamisons' belongings and the dog inside and locked it up for safekeeping. Just to be neighborly, you know. Although locking up the dog is not especially neighborly, but people do dumb things all the time. Maybe it was assumed that whoever belonged with the truck was out hiking or something and would return shortly.

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Yeah, have thought of that - but lock Maisie in? I suppose someone might have done so early on. I'm sure there are great people in those hills but I don't get a feeling of 'neighborliness' about the place, unless being neighborly is used in the sense of meaning, "don't worry; I've got your back" on - like - whatever. And the San Bois range, like the Cookson Hills nearby, has long held outlaw secrets.

I think the truck was left there unreported by certain people to buy time, and by more persons perhaps than just my suspected abductor(s). Also, though it could have been moved by this person or persons, returning to the (first) scene of the crime's never been a wise move. So - let it set. Don't leave fingerprints. Don't panic. You're in your home base. Trust your neighbors.

Snoopster said:

One of the comments reminded me about the point that apparently the Jamisons asked the church pastor about what kind of bullets to use to kill a demon. Who came up with this point? The pastor? Did anyone other than the pastor hear them talking about demons on the roof?

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That right there has always bothered me. It was apparently the LCSO that was the source of these allegations being made public. Why?

http://newsok.com/eufaula-familys-fate-remains-mystery/article/3458228

Gary Brandon, a Eufaula pastor, told investigators the Jamisons were engaged in spiritual warfare... Investigative notes show Sherilyn Jamison told Brandon there were "three to four spirits” in the house, including children named Michael and Emily, and that Madyson often talked to Emily’s sister — a spirit that had wings. Sherilyn Jamison wasn’t afraid, though. She believed she had the gift to cast out demons.

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Oklahoma LE are notoriously close-mouthed about details of investigations. Why did the sheriff choose to release this particular info to the press?

A couple of interesting posts by mtrooper, one before the Disappeared episode premiered on TV:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5848859&postcount=281

They wanted to interview Pastor Gary Brandon, but something went wrong...

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And one after the premiere:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5880565&postcount=23

Originally they were supposed to interview Gary Brandon, but he was not returning Discovery's phone calls when they were trying to reach him when they were down there.

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So it could be that the pastor was appalled that this information was made public and did not want to discuss it with the media. I'm certainly appalled. Or it could be that he was fibbing or maybe stretching the truth a little for dramatic effect, and now wants to distance himself from the whole thing as much as possible.

Bobby Sr's funeral service was held at the Apostolic Faith Church in his hometown of Sallisaw, OK. This church is an offshoot of the Pentecostal faith, so it seems likely that Bobby Jr was brought up in the same or a similar church.

I did find something interesting about Sherilyn in an old post by NS (who seems to be an ALL CAPS person):

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99103&highlight=driveway&page=6

I'M NOT SURE WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE SEEING- BUT BELIEVE WHAT U WANT, I HAVE SEEN SPIRITS. MY DAUGHTER HAS SEEN SHERILYN'S SPIRIT A MONTH AFTER THEY WERE MISSING. SO I GUESS WE R ALL CRAZY. AS FAR AS THE SATANIC BIBLE. THIS IS DISTURBING TO ME. IT BREAKS MY HEART THAT THEY FELT SO UTTERLY DESPERATE TO TURN TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SHERILYN WAS RAISED GOING TO SOME KIND OF CHURCH WHERE SHE AND HER BROTHER WOULD TAKE PART IN CASTING OUT DEMONS..... SHE WOULD START TO SPEAK OF IT AND I WAS ALWAYS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE WHOLE SUBJECT SO I WOULD ALWAYS QUICKLY REDIRECT IT.

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So, if this info is correct, then casting out demons was a concept that was ingrained in Sherilyn from childhood. This is actually less disturbing to me than if she had suddenly taken up this spiritual belief after her life started going off the rails.

Also, one might assume that Sherilyn and her brother were taken to this church by their mother, and this may help explain CK's interview in which she says Sherilyn was on a cult's hit list, another bit of sensational news that this case could have done without, IMO.

http://newsok.com/mother-believes-r...klahoma-familys-disappearance/article/3906475

Dallen said:

Is anyone else bothered by this? A lot could've happened in those 10 days, but it goes to show that they were not in their sound mind. I didn't remember this part until OkieGranny's transcript. Has anyone seen NS further explain Sherilyn's behavior when she showed up at her house? I've tried to find it from statements or posts by NS when she was following here on WS and commenting, but can't seem to find anything.

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I don't know how much weight I give NS's assessment, 1) because she was not specific in any way about the behavior, and 2) because of the "after someone goes missing" factor (and maybe there's a real name for this, I don't know): it seems to be said rather often that a person was "acting strange" or "preoccupied" shortly before his/her disappearance, and also, there are many false sightings of missing persons which turn out to be impossible in hindsight.

Mitch1 said:

I did consider that maybe mommy and daddy were fighting that day and the person not driving jumped out, ran into the woods and the person driving had to come to an abrupt stop, jumped out quickly to try and catch that person and not wanting to leave the child in the car took her too

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You know, I never even considered that, but it's an interesting thought.

In two of the worst "couple arguments" I ever witnessed that took place in cars, one person did get out and take off on foot (in suburbia though, not woods). I saw this happen with two different couples; in one case it was a woman who took off, in the other it was a man.

Suppose someone did take off and walk into the woods (where the truck couldn't go), in a fit of pique or just to cool off a bit, and the other(s) followed him/her? And they went just far enough to get turned around and then lost?

wfgodot said:

Perhaps, assuming the "taken in a vehicle" scenario, they got into the vehicle voluntarily as it was someone they had met before, or knew. Lock doors, leave dog there. Be back soon.

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I think in an abduction/murder scenario, that's most likely how it went down. They wouldn't need jackets, wallets, phones [esp. if poor signal], etc. if they were hopping into another vehicle for a little while with a "helpful" person, maybe to go look at other plots of land, or to check out some off-the-grid residences.

It's harder for me to believe that someone taking them at gunpoint would ignore the wallet and purse, even if money was not the main motivation. But it's not impossible, of course.

Mitch1 said:

I guess for me it just seems very unnatural to stop your car right in the middle of the road and leave with someone familiar.

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Well, I think one simple reason for the car to be pulled off to the side of the road is because the road was so narrow. If they wanted to get out and leave the vehicle for whatever reason, they wouldn't want to block the path for anyone coming up or down. Pull off to the side, lock up, take keys. (Maybe out of sheer habit, or maybe she didn't feel like carrying her purse. I dislike carrying a purse around while shopping, so I usually pull out cash or a credit card, then cover up the purse and leave it in the car.) And then... who knows what happened.

wfgodot said:

Yeah, have thought of that - but lock Maisie in? I suppose someone might have done so early on. I'm sure there are great people in those hills but I don't get a feeling of 'neighborliness' about the place, unless being neighborly is used in the sense of meaning, "don't worry; I've got your back" on - like - whatever. And the San Bois range, like the Cookson Hills nearby, has long held outlaw secrets.

I think the truck was left there unreported by certain people to buy time, and by more persons perhaps than just my suspected abductor(s). Also, though it could have been moved by this person or persons, returning to the (first) scene of the crime's never been a wise move. So - let it set. Don't leave fingerprints. Don't panic. You're in your home base. Trust your neighbors.

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You've heard of muscle memory, I'm sure. Perhaps a curious person taking a peek inside the truck automatically hit the lock button before shutting the door. And if the truck was locked, well, some people find it handy to keep a slim jim, you know, just in case an opportunity should arise.

I've considered the possibility that a certain amount of pilfering might have happened before the sheriff's office was eventually called. That might explain where Sherilyn's missing .22 went, and maybe the briefcase as well, if the Jamisons were abducted and killed for reasons other than their money. There's really no way to tell if there were any items left in that truck that were gone by the time LCSO arrived on the scene.

OkieGranny said:

Was the settlement an out-of-court settlement? I can't remember. If so, if it was privately worked out between the parties involved, maybe the Jamisons didn't deposit that money in the bank to avoid IRS reporting. Or maybe they just didn't like banks.

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snip

Yes, out of court, at least according to.....

Starlet Jamison, Bobby Jamison’s mother, told investigators the lawsuit was settled out of court for $64,000 and her son split the money with his wife — perhaps accounting for the cash found in their pickup Oct. 17.

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http://newsok.com/eufaula-man-filed-lawsuit-against-father/article/3458229

SchoolgirlShamus said:

You know, I never even considered that, but it's an interesting thought.

In two of the worst "couple arguments" I ever witnessed that took place in cars, one person did get out and take off on foot (in suburbia though, not woods). I saw this happen with two different couples; in one case it was a woman who took off, in the other it was a man.

Suppose someone did take off and walk into the woods (where the truck couldn't go), in a fit of pique or just to cool off a bit, and the other(s) followed him/her? And they went just far enough to get turned around and then lost?

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Not to mention I have read they seemed to have some pretty nasty fights. After I started reading all these threads I got real focused on finding an explanation for leaving the vehicle where and how they did. It does explain why they left their phones, purse, dog, money etc. If the fact the family never offered a reward after receiving all the money they did, the lack of evidence a dog was in there starving, the fact that she pulled her kid out of school and signed over her son to his dad right before they disappeared, them being in a WPP would never have crossed my mine. Once you go tracking off into those mountains and draw attention to yourselves screaming and yelling-I cant imagine the trouble someone could run into.

However, I am still hung up on the reward/dog/child out of school and sign son to dad! So I remain alone and confident of my WPP theory-I welcome any answers regarding the reward, dog and others listed

Mitch1 said:

Not criticizing, just curious-What's got the "died from exposure" at the top of your list

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I realize you were asking someone else. But for me, these are the reasons I lean towards exposure at the moment:

1) The bodies' distance from the truck -- far enough to be well and truly lost, but not so far as to be unwalkable, even with a child and a bad back. This struck me as potentially meaningful.

2) Weather situation with rain and colder temperatures, and the fact that they left their jackets behind. I don't necessarily think they died overnight the first night, either. It may have taken a while longer. I don't know enough about hypothermia or exposure or exhaustion to say. Extremely thin parents and a tiny girl... probably no food... no shelter... who knows what kind of water. If drinking the creek water made them ill, that would further dehydrate and weaken them. Also, disturbingly, I found that so-called trench foot -- slow rotting of flesh from constant contact with damp socks and improper footwear -- can start in less than a day. I had no idea. That would limit their mobility a lot.

3) Bodies found unburied or unhidden (as far as we know right now, anyway). If they were murdered, it seems strange to drag or carry three bodies into the woods for miles -- think about that task, not feet, not yards, but miles! -- only to leave them lying there without any apparent attempt at concealment. (They were miles from anywhere, right, not just from the road...?)

4) LE saying no sign of foul play. Though who knows how accurate that is, of course.

SchoolgirlShamus said:

I realize you were asking someone else. But for me, these are the reasons I lean towards exposure at the moment:

1) The bodies' distance from the truck -- far enough to be well and truly lost, but not so far as to be unwalkable, even with a child and a bad back.

2) Weather situation with rain and colder temperatures, and the fact that they left their jackets behind. I don't necessarily think they died overnight the first night, either. It may have taken a while longer. I don't know enough about hypothermia or exposure or exhaustion to say.

3) Bodies found unburied or unhidden (as far as we know right now, anyway). If they were murdered, it seems strange to drag or carry three bodies into the woods for miles -- think about that task, miles! -- only to leave them lying there without any apparent attempt at concealment. (They were miles from anywhere, right, not just from the road...?)

4) LE saying no sign of foul play. Though who knows how accurate that is, of course.

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No problem, I'm not sensitive about that stuff, and I like it when people can say why they think the way they do-I might have missed something

If I read your post right-your main theory is lost in woods. I guess for me Bobby studied horticulture and worked on a tree farm I would think he has a decent understanding of where he was, also when I read all the news stories from out in Ok. residents are quick to mention that during that time there are lots of people hiking and riding around up there-to me it says someone should have found them. Then I read about all the little dirt roads that are all over the place and that makes me think the chances of people finding them will increase. The bodies that were found weren't buried so much as they were covered up by falling leaves, If I was invested in this theory I would want to know about vegetation growing up through bones and how many years of leaves were directly below and between the bones, especially if I thought someone killed and moved the bones-maybe they were selling the home and needed to get rid of them. We had 4-wheelers when we were younger and lived in an area very much like this and let me tell you there were times I stopped and said ya'll go ahead, because they were much more adventurous and confident. So for me moving bones via 4-wheeler really wouldn't be a bad task at all. Desperate people are resourceful people. Yeah I put absolutely no stock into the no foul play, to me it came of as more like we didn't find anything obvious like a weapon and the skulls were intact-this would not rule out a slit throat though

Okay, let's look at where the truck was found.



In this picture, we can see the bluff rising on the north side of the well site behind the truck. And there's a long, low ridge of rock along the edge of the road on the passenger side of the truck.



Looking on Google Earth, the spot I think best matches the photo above is marked by the yellow balloon. Can't zoom in any closer without losing all detail, but I'm pretty sure that's the same long, low ridge of rock to the left of the yellow balloon.



Zooming out to get a perspective of the area surrounding the well site, we can see the road leading up to it, the large flat clearing where the well once was, and there's the bluff along the north edge of the site.

We know that the final photo of Madyson was taken near rocks above the bluff, "maybe just a couple of hundred yards," according to Sheriff Beauchamp. This could be the line of whitish rocks seen to the north of the bluff, but there's another line of white rocks even further north that seems a better match for this distance estimate.

IMO, it just doesn't make sense that they would drive onto the well site, turn the truck around, drive back onto the beginning of the road, and park the truck there before climbing the bluff and walking to the spot where Madyson's photo was taken.

It seems much more likely that they arrived at the well site and parked near the bluff, climbed up it, walked to the rocks, took the photo, returned to the truck, and began to drive away from the well site. And then whatever happened to them happened.

Sheriff Beauchamp again, from the Disappeared transcript: "It seemed to me like they were leaving, and that someone came up that one-way road, and they stopped. Maybe they knew them, maybe not well. They stopped and talked to the person. From there, obviously, I don't know what happened."

So, there's one thing at least that IB and I agree on.

And here's the video of the drive up the mountain again, if you missed it earlier or just want to review. The rock ridge on the left side of the road can be seen at the 2:10 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUJJ8E0EFSo

So throw all this into your brain stew and see what cooks up.

OkieGranny said:

Okay, let's look at where the truck was found.

In this picture, we can see the bluff rising on the north side of the well site behind the truck. And there's a long, low ridge of rock along the edge of the road on the passenger side of the truck.

Looking on Google Earth, the spot I think best matches the photo above is marked by the yellow balloon. Can't zoom in any closer without losing all detail, but I'm pretty sure that's the same long, low ridge of rock to the left of the yellow balloon.

Zooming out to get a perspective of the area surrounding the well site, we can see the road leading up to it, the large flat clearing where the well once was, and there's the bluff along the north edge of the site.

We know that the final photo of Madyson was taken near rocks above the bluff, "maybe just a couple of hundred yards," according to Sheriff Beauchamp. This could be the line of whitish rocks seen to the north of the bluff, but there's another line of white rocks even further north that seems a better match for this distance estimate.

IMO, it just doesn't make sense that they would drive onto the well site, turn the truck around, drive back onto the beginning of the road, and park the truck there before climbing the bluff and walking to the spot where Madyson's photo was taken.

It seems much more likely that they arrived at the well site and parked near the bluff, climbed up it, walked to the rocks, took the photo, returned to the truck, and began to drive away from the well site. And then whatever happened to them happened.

Sheriff Beauchamp again, from the Disappeared transcript: "It seemed to me like they were leaving, and that someone came up that one-way road, and they stopped. Maybe they knew them, maybe not well. They stopped and talked to the person. From there, obviously, I don't know what happened."

So, there's one thing at least that IB and I agree on.

And here's the video of the drive up the mountain again, if you missed it earlier or just want to review. The rock ridge on the left side of the road can be seen at the 2:10 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUJJ8E0EFSo

So throw all this into your brain stew and see what cooks up.

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Maybe the other vehicle was there with them all along and instead of coming up the hill blocking them, they both were driving down the hill-the Jamisons truck behind the other vehicle- could be a govt. vehicle sent to whisk them away or it could be the bad guys vehicle. The vehicle stops causing the Jamisons to stop and either way the Jamisons end up in the vehicle that was in front of them. Then Sasquatch jumps out in front of the vehicle that the Jamisons are now in and foils the plan the aliens had to abduct them once they reached the bottom of the mountain-Don't be messin with Sasquach. All kidding aside where they went after they got in the second vehicle will test the conlusion of our theories for sure. If someone did kill them, boy there are so many good suspects with motives. So thats how my little ride along went-in my head at least-didn't see that video before, I like it!

OkieGranny said:

I've considered the possibility that a certain amount of pilfering might have happened before the sheriff's office was eventually called. That might explain where Sherilyn's missing .22 went, and maybe the briefcase as well, if the Jamisons were abducted and killed for reasons other than their money.

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Respectfully BBM.

I think this is an excellent thought with a reasonable likelihood no matter WHAT happened to them. Goodness only knows what happened to the crime scene before there officially was one. :-/ Stories of crooked cops are legion. Unfortunately.

Mitch1 said:

However, I am still hung up on the reward/dog/child out of school and sign son to dad! So I remain alone and confident of my WPP theory-I welcome any answers regarding the reward, dog and others listed

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I agree the lack of a reward seems odd, but there have been odd statements and/or behaviors from just about everyone connected to Bobby and Sherilyn. If this were a WPP case, offering a reward seems like a no harm/no foul kind of deal because, if their relocation and identity change were well enough done, no one would ever claim the reward. And I can tell you that a big reward doesn't necessarily draw that much attention. There's currently a $35,000 reward being offered in the Molly Miller case down in Love County, and her name has never been mentioned by any national media.

About pulling Madyson out of school, here's a post by NS about that:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5345010&postcount=28

Quote:

Originally Posted by oriah
kind of a random question- but concerning Madyson's teeth- i didn't see the report anywhere on how that happened? I know i read 'at school, accidentally' just prior to them going missing. Do you know if the dental info on file is from a followup visit for that? Or prior to that?

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i think her teeth got knocked out with a swing at school. Not sure if she had a follow up visit. I can almost see Sherilyn saying that there was no need to spend $ on a visit for baby teeth gone. But who knows.

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And one by mtrooper:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5347533&postcount=31

I know that they were baby teeth, and that it happened on the play ground. Bobby and Sherilyn were not happy with the school long before she knocked her teeth out. The school thought that Madyson might be a good candidate for medication to help with her ADHD, and the school felt her behavior was due to issues at home. Bobby and Sherilyn felt that the school was not doing a good enough job at teaching Madyson, and that the school was to blame (from what I was told by a church member that was friends with the Jamisons). Star is getting the dental records for Sherilyn and Madyson, she did not think that Bobby went to the dentist and said that he pulled his own teeth to avoid going. The dental records were post injury.

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I'm working on info about the custody of Sherilyn's son, but the stupid OSCN website went down and I'll have to try again later. I can tell you that she did not voluntarily sign him over. Her ex-husband was awarded custody by the court.