GUILTY Canada - Loretta Saunders, 26, Halifax, NS, 13 February 2014 #2

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otto said:
Drug violations are subject to federal prosecution. 30 grams was a small amount in comparison to most drug busts where there is surveillance prior to arrest. Regardless, it's a fact of the case.
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If you look at the age of the participants and the fact that there was surveillance I am left to wonder about the suspected activities of the older participant and that participant's history with LE.
 
codeofhonour said:
Definitely empathic..auto fill gets you every time. :)

She may have been arrested but I don't know the outcome of that.

They may have been unemployed grifters, but who is to say they were honest about what they told Loretta. Appears to me VH is quite the story teller, and pretty experienced surviving on the cuff, much more than I would assess LS with what I know right now. Matur students judgements can be compromised under obvious financial duress. Maturity encompasses a broad spectrum of development , who's to say she was fully mature in street smarts ?

LE has a pretty good record when the lay homicide charges, I am pretty certain I just read they have well over 80% conviction rate, I will see if I can dig up the exact stat.

You are correct , accused in this country are innocent until..... If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck, looks like a duck ; it probably is a duck.

good points Otto to keep me in check :)
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I don't believe that Victoria was honest about her intent. From the link posted referencing her friend from 10 years ago, it sounds like she expected people to simply provide for her and give her what she wanted. He said that if he didn't have money for her cigarettes, after providing her with a roof over her head, she became angry. She sounds extremely entitled.

Victoria Henneberry had a false LinkedIn account. I understand that a LinkedIn page is something typically used by persons looking for work, HR personnel, and managers. The first clue that her profile was false (many users embellish profiles) was that she claimed that she worked as an administrator for the department of national defence from the age of 16, the second clue was that she claimed to have a two year continuing education certificate in one year, and the third clue was that she claimed to be registered in an online BComm University Degree when she was traveling across the country every few months for no apparent reason. Loretta's Turkish boyfriend reported that Loretta had to work hard to write a paper, working late into the night often. She knew what was required to complete a university degree, and she knew that it didn't include a transient, homeless lifestyle with frequent cross-country travel.

Did Loretta look at Victoria's LinkedIn page and naively assume that everything was above board? Perhaps. Still, if everything is above board, rent is paid in advance. If rent was not paid in advance, everything was not above board, so why would an intelligent woman give her apartment keys to someone that was not above board?

People that have been arrested for drug trafficking at the age of 20 get their street smarts really fast. I don't see that there was serious financial stress since Loretta was in the process of moving in with her Turkish boyfriend. She was pregnant and I have no doubt that he would have allowed her to stay ... since he was paying rent anyway and stated that he saw himself spending the rest of his life with her. From his perspective, his companion of 2.5 years that is expecting what he believes to be his child should not consider looking after her as a burden. If she was under financial distress, she should have given up her apartment entirely, not kept it and given the keys to strangers.

Police have a pretty good record when laying murder charges and drug trafficking charges. If it walks like a duck ... no reason to pretend it's a swan.
When police discover a crime scene, they call the prosecutor that is assigned at the time of the discovery and he/she identifies which charges can be laid based on evidence. Finding the car and body resulted in first degree murder charges ... most likely the correct charge.

Prosecutors are not elected in Canada. They apply for the job, get the job and keep the job for as long as they like. Assistant Chief Prosecutors are often promoted to Queen's Counsel and Judge. If, as a prosecutor, they screw up on the charge, it can be changed up until the time of trial. Canadian prosecutors are trained by the FBI and they are mindful (Guy Paul Morin) of tunnel vision, so they get it mostly right. There is also the huge advantage that suspects can be interrogated (in a civilized manner) without a lawyer for hours. The suspect has the right to contact a lawyer, but not to have a lawyer present during questioning. I believe this is the Canadian advantage that quickly broke the case and allowed the family closure with the discovery of Loretta's body.
 
Some arguments

otto said:
I don't believe that Victoria was honest about her intent. From the link posted referencing her friend from 10 years ago, it sounds like she expected people to simply provide for her and give her what she wanted. He said that if he didn't have money for her cigarettes, after providing her with a roof over her head, she became angry. She sounds extremely entitled.


// Exactly, she has clearly proven she wasn't honest.

Victoria Henneberry had a false LinkedIn account. I understand that a LinkedIn page is something typically used by persons looking for work, HR personnel, and managers.

// She was not applying for a job, she was trying to get a place to stay. It's the middle of winter, and I am sure she said what ever she had to say to make this happen, she fabricated whatever was necessary to gain Loretta's confidence. If she was applying for a job it would be a fair assumption that one would check out those claims, this however wasn't the case.

The first clue that her profile was false (many users embellish profiles) was that she claimed that she worked as an administrator for the department of national defence from the age of 16, the second clue was that she claimed to have a two year continuing education certificate in one year, and the third clue was that she claimed to be registered in an online BComm when she was traveling across the country every few months for no apparent reason.

// Loretta was not a property manager or owner of the property but a student and the formalities were and often times different seeing her position.

Loretta's Turkish boyfriend reported that she had to work hard to write a paper, working late into the night often. She knew what was required to complete a university degree, and she knew that it didn't include a transient, homeless lifestyle with frequent cross-country travel.

// We don't know what stories she was told. Many people can have an ' alternative' dress or look contrary to what one may assume about them. It's not uncommon to see people with alternative dress on campus.

Did Loretta look at Victoria's LinkedIn page and assume that everything was above board?

// see above for rebuttal.


Perhaps. Still, if everything is above board, rent is paid in advance. If rent was not paid in advance, everything was not above board, so why would an intelligent woman give her apartment keys to someone that was not above board?


// She believed them for what ever reason. It's very possible she was so busy and focused on her studies, and mentally filed this away to investigate further when she had time.


People that have been arrested for drug trafficking at the age of 20 get their street smarts really fast.

// If that was the case many would not have multiple convictions .So not everyone really learns street smarts fast just because they were arrested.

Who would generally have the best opportunity to gain street smarts quicker?

A woman in a small rural town all her life.

or

A transient woman living off the street travelling from one large metropolitan statistical area to another when their very survival depends on it.

I don't see that there was serious financial stress since Loretta was in the process of moving in with her Turkish boyfriend.

// We don't know the full extent of his financial burden , there obviously was reason enough to consider getting room mates.

She was pregnant and I have no doubt that he would have allowed her to stay ...

// Their plan was to live together, the assumption that he would pay it all is unproven. We don't know his financial situation either. It is very possible he needed all the help he could get to the extent that she would help him cover costs by moving in.

since he was paying rent anyway and stated that he saw himself spending the rest of his life with her. From his perspective, his companion of 2.5 years that is expecting what he believes to be his child should not consider looking after her as a burden.

// The question was not about burden , the question was his financial situation.Fact in point, he was requesting help with funds needed to attend Loretta funeral.


If she was under financial distress, she should have given up her apartment entirely, not kept it and given the keys to strangers.

// She as an aspiring lawyer certainly wouldn't want to be sued for breach of contract.

Police have a pretty good record when laying murder charges and drug trafficking charges. If it walks like a duck ... no reason to pretend it's a swan.


// Yes, LE have a good record in some charges. It is however not uncommon in a drug trafficking charge to charge two parties who appear to be working in concert and leave it up for their defence to sort it out otherwise.
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I'm beginning to believe earlier suggestions that the only way that Loretta would hand over the keys to her apartment, with no collateral, is if someone vouched for the two grifters. Who vouched for them, and what is the association between that person and Blake/Victoria? I'm assuming that this answer will contribute to an understanding of why Loretta was murdered.

Was it that Victoria was resentful and jealous of Loretta and elicited support from Blake to murder their room mate? Was Blake nuts and he solicited, perhaps with force, help from Victoria? Did Loretta have a complicated life between discovering that she was pregnant, completing her University semester, anticipating a misspending complication, moving in with a friend, living in two apartments, having a professor gush about her research topic proposal, and two strangers that had her apartment keys?
 
There some valid points. They did seem to say kijiji in not one MSM posting. I believe she was just overwhelmed with the things you just did mention Otto, that's why I tend to put weight on the premise that her judgement was compromised.
 
codeofhonour said:
Some arguments

Exactly, she has clearly proven she wasn't honest.

She was not applying for a job, she was trying to get a place to stay. It's the middle of winter, and I am sure she said what ever she had to say to make this happen, she fabricated whatever was necessary to gain Loretta's confidence. If she was applying for a job it would be a fair assumption that one would check out those claims, this however wasn't the case.

Loretta was not a property manager or owner of the property but a student and the formalities were and often times different seeing her position.

We don't know what stories she was told. Many people can have an ' alternative' dress or look contrary to what one may assume about them. It's not uncommon to see people with alternative dress on campus.

see above for rebuttal.

She believed them for what ever reason. It's very possible she was so busy and focused on her studies, and mentally filed this away to investigate further when she had time.

f that was the case many would not have multiple convictions .So not everyone really learns street smarts fast just because they were arrested.

We don't know the full extent of his financial burden , there obviously was reason enough to consider getting room mates.

Their plan was to live together, the assumption that he would pay it all is unproven. We don't know his financial situation either. It is very possible he needed all the help he could get to the extent that she would help him cover costs by moving in.

The question was not about burden , the question was his financial situation.Fact in point, he was requesting help with funds needed to attend Loretta funeral.

She as an aspiring lawyer certainly wouldn't want to be sued for breach of contract.

Yes, LE have a good record in some charges. It is however not uncommon in a drug trafficking charge to charge two parties who appear to be working in concert and leave it up for their defence to sort it out otherwise.
Click to expand...

Who is requesting funds to attend Loretta's funeral? Her boyfriend of two and a half years and his mother, a woman that met Loretta when she visited Turkey? How much does it cost to fly from Turkey and how kind of his mother to remember Loretta and want to be here for her son and her family ... Loretta was the woman that her son was considering as a life partner, the woman that her son introduced to his family?

Of course her boyfriend of two and a half years and his mother should be respected by Loretta's family ... unless it's about money ... and then the question is whether there is any money left over after family airfare is paid ... as family fund raising was for family airfare. If there's money left over after family airfare is paid, I hope that boyfriend and mom airfare is paid.

Victoria, a grifter, was looking for a place to stay in Halifax. What better way to present a good image than to create a fake LinkedIn and Facebook profile. Is that a good reason for someone looking for a room mate to overlook payment of rent and damage deposit?

I can't really follow the rest of the fragmented comment.
 
codeofhonour said:
There some valid points. They did seem to say kijiji in not one MSM posting. I believe she was just overwhelmed with the things you just did mention Otto, that's why I tend to put weight on the premise that her judgement was compromised.
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BBM

Pot use does that.
Perhaps it's also a side effect of methadone treatment ... compromised judgement?
 
otto said:
I can't really follow the rest of the fragmented comment.
Click to expand...

Yes, LE have a good record in some charges. It is however not uncommon in a drug trafficking charge to charge two parties who appear to be working in concert and leave it up for their defence to sort it out otherwise.

// The point I am try to make is this; if you charge two people who appear to be working in concert ( together )with the same drug trafficking charge there often is a better chance to get at least one conviction because each party will tend to point their finger at the other party. Their respective defence council then sets out to defend the accusation and it gets sorted out this way.
 
codeofhonour said:
Could you be answering your own questions why she gave her keys to VH and BL.
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If Loretta's "judgement was compromised" when she gave her keys to complete strangers (due to methadone treatment or marijuana abuse), how is it possible that she was simultaneously submitting an undergraduate honour's thesis topic proposal? Is that something that was possible with "compromised judgement" ... so possible that her 28 page submission for a 10 page assignment could be done with compromised judgement due to methodone treatment or drug abuse ... and it made sense as an honours topic ... about three women or 900 women?

Did Loretta have "compromised judgement" between discovering that she was pregnant, completing her University semester, anticipating a misspending complication, moving in with a friend, living in two apartments, having a professor gush about her research topic proposal, and two strangers that had her apartment keys?

None of that "compromised judgement" seems to indicate that she would compromise her personal safety and give away the key to her front door ... for nothing, no payment in exchange ... so foolishly that it resulted in her death. Surely she had more common sense. There must have been a recommendation, or outside influence, for a mature University student with some street smarts to do something so foolish.

What if a national inquiry costs Canadians millions of dollars and the conclusion is that it is a systemic problem; one that has to be resolved at a cultural level, where it needs to be understood why more aboriginal men than women are murdered by their spouses, as compared to the non-aboriginal population.

Alaska must have an Inuit population. What is the spousal homicide rate for aboriginal males in Alaska? Is it 38 times higher than the non-aboriginal population?
 
otto said:
Who is requesting funds to attend Loretta's funeral? Her boyfriend of two and a half years and his mother, a woman that met Loretta when she visited Turkey? How much does it cost to fly from Turkey and how kind of his mother to remember Loretta and want to be here for her son and her family ... Loretta was the woman that her son was considering as a life partner, the woman that her son introduced to his family?

Of course her boyfriend of two and a half years and his mother should be respected by Loretta's family ... unless it's about money ... and then the question is whether there is any money left over after family airfare is paid ... as family fund raising was for family airfare. If there's money left over after family airfare is paid, I hope that boyfriend and mom airfare is paid.
Click to expand...

The parents of the boyfriend were planning on coming over even before it was known that LS was dead. ( they had visa complications and would have been her even sooner if not for that) I am not in disagreement that they shouldn't be respected and assisted in whatever means possible.

I was just arguing your assumption that LS boyfriend would be taking care of all the rent at his place when she moved in.

As in international student tuition in itself is twice as much. With this in mind coupled with the complications for an international student to even work in Canada creates even more financial burden.

With an international student status and the further financial demands on this category of student, it can't be assumed that he would be paying all the rent.
 
codeofhonour said:
Yes, LE have a good record in some charges. It is however not uncommon in a drug trafficking charge to charge two parties who appear to be working in concert and leave it up for their defence to sort it out otherwise.

// The point I am try to make is this; if you charge two people who appear to be working in concert ( together )with the same drug trafficking charge there often is a better chance to get at least one conviction because each party will tend to point their finger at the other party. Their respective defence council then sets out to defend the accusation and it gets sorted out this way.
Click to expand...

The prisoner's paradox, where one prisoner points a finger at the other, is interesting, however, that is not what happened in the 2008 arrest.

When a crime is committed, police consult with prosecutors as the evidence is revealed, or unveiled. Police are looking for guidance in what charges can be laid. The prosecutor will hold back and ask police to continue investigating in order to consider whether higher charges should be laid. It is a cat and mouse in terms of laying additional charges and risking losing the suspect ... in my opinion.

Let's suppose ... police receive a telephone tip that an address might be a drug dealing house. Police determine who lives in the house and put up surveillance. They document activity over several days and then arrest the two suspects, a man and a woman. If Loretta lived at the address and she was holding for the man, then she was in control. If she was a guest, then it's odd that RCMP stormed the drug house when there was a guest ... given that they'd surveilled the house for days prior to the arrest.

It seems unbelievable that the 2008 news report was an error, and Loretta did nothing to correct the error for more than five years.
 
otto said:
If Loretta's "judgement was compromised" when she gave her keys to complete strangers (due to methadone treatment or marijuana abuse), how is it possible that she was simultaneously submitting an undergraduate honour's thesis topic proposal?
Click to expand...


// I quote " pot does that" this was your quote when referring to a possible reason for her judgement. What were you inferring there and what is your point with that comment.

My point of her possible compromised judgement was , the business of school and life.




Did Loretta have "compromised judgement" between discovering that she was pregnant, completing her University semester, anticipating a misspending complication, moving in with a friend, living in two apartments, having a professor gush about her research topic proposal, and two strangers that had her apartment keys?


// that would be more of the reasoning I would think



None of that "compromised judgement" seems to indicate that she would compromise her personal safety and give away the key to her front door ... for nothing, no payment in exchange ... so foolishly that it resulted in her death. Surely she had more common sense. There must have been a recommendation, or outside influence, for a mature University student with some street smarts to do something so foolish.



// It is possible of outside influence. Right now all we have like it has already been said a few times is the Kijiji connection.


What if a national inquiry costs Canadians millions of dollars and the conclusion is that it is a systemic problem; one that has to be resolved at a cultural level, where it needs to be understood why more aboriginal men than women are murdered by their spouses, as compared to the non-aboriginal population.


// there have been countless studies already. Minister of Justice Peter MacKay stated in a recent interview. There is a link in a previous post.

Alaska must have an Inuit population. What is the spousal homicide rate for aboriginal males in Alaska? Is it 38 times higher than the non-aboriginal population?

// I have seen that statistic and was alarmed at that myself. My opinion is that strong families make strong countries. Whether they are native or non native is not the issue,if a family is broken that is the first piece of the puzzle that must be fixed.
 
otto said:
The prisoner's paradox, where one prisoner points a finger at the other, is interesting, however, that is not what happened in the 2008 arrest.

When a crime is committed, police consult with prosecutors as the evidence is revealed, or unveiled. Police are looking for guidance in what charges can be laid. The prosecutor will hold back and ask police to continue investigating in order to consider whether higher charges should be laid. It is a cat and mouse in terms of laying additional charges and risking losing the suspect ... in my opinion.

Let's suppose ... police receive a telephone tip that an address might be a drug dealing house. Police determine who lives in the house and put up surveillance. They document activity over several days and then arrest the two suspects, a man and a woman. If Loretta lived at the address and she was holding for the man, then she was in control. If she was a guest, then it's odd that RCMP stormed the drug house when there was a guest ... given that they'd surveilled the house for days prior to the arrest.

It seems unbelievable that the 2008 news report was an error, and Loretta did nothing to correct the error for more than five years.
Click to expand...

Do you really think she would jeopardize everything she has worked for? I would think she would want to distance herself from any association of such a lifestyle in the future.
 
codeofhonour said:
The parents of the boyfriend were planning on coming over even before it was known that LS was dead. ( they had visa complications and would have been her even sooner if not for that) I am not in disagreement that they shouldn't be respected and assisted in whatever means possible.

I was just arguing your assumption that LS boyfriend would be taking care of all the rent at his place when she moved in.

As in international student tuition in itself is twice as much. With this in mind coupled with the complications for an international student to even work in Canada creates even more financial burden.

With an international student status and the further financial demands on this category of student, it can't be assumed that he would be paying all the rent.
Click to expand...

Yes, as soon as it was known by the boyfriend's mother that the woman her son introduced was missing, she came immediately. There was a slight delay due to visa requirements, but she is with her son and mourning the loss of a woman with whom he thought he might live out his life.

Turkey has a different culture than Canada. In Canada, it might seem normal to be with a woman for two and a half years, start a family, and vanish. In Turkey, the culture is old because men do not abandon their wives.

Foreign students pay tuition of about $20,000 per year. That is reduced with scholarships, grants and bursaries. Canadian aboriginals. which make up 1,500,000/35,000,000 of the population, have an option on an additional $10 million in free post secondary education benefits, plus provincial benefits. I can't understand why either would be short of funds short of mismanaging funds.
 
codeofhonour said:
Do you really think she would jeopardize everything she has worked for? I would think she would want to distance herself from any association of such a lifestyle in the future.
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If she did want to distance herself from that lifestyle, what was she doing with people like Blake Leggette and Victoria Henneberry (nee: Galbraith)? How did they get the keys to her apartment?
 
otto said:
If she did want to distance herself from that lifestyle, what was she doing with people like Blake Leggette and Victoria Henneberry (nee: Galbraith)? How did they get the keys to her apartment?
Click to expand...

// The only way to reconcile this would be that her room mates are simply that, not her associates or friends. Seeing they were strangers she probably had no intention of associating with them outside of the boundaries of room mates.
 
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