Trial Discussion Thread #4 - 14.03.10, Day 6

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bessie said:
Is anyone clear on how many bullets entered the body, and the locations. I'm a little confused by these two statements. I know the bullet that went through the head, also passed through one of the arms. Right or left?

Did a different bullet enter the other arm?

Thanks in advance is you can answer.

"Steenkamp suffered multiple wounds as a result of gunshots fired by Pistorius, the court heard.

The upper left arm was deformed due to the amount of fracture, Saayman told the court."
http://citizen.co.za/141361/family-members-console-pistorius/


"He described the wound to Steenkamp's arm as devastating. Her right arm was shattered, leaving it with no functionality."
http://citizen.co.za/141417/steenkamp-took-breaths-head-wound/
Click to expand...
It definitely has been stated there were 3 bullets that hit her, the 4th one missed..but I am just as confused as to the entry wounds. So annoying.
 
AlwaysShocked said:
zweibel: I thought the same thing you are thinking. Except then when I re-read it, I realized that the shin is in the front of the leg only. In the back, it would be called the calf.

So that means one bruise on the front of the leg and one on the back. I wonder if these were older - black and blue - or fresh red bruises?
Click to expand...

I was wondering that too - what the heck is the 'back' of a shin. Do you think it was just poor phrasing?
 
bessie said:
Is anyone clear on how many bullets entered the body, and the locations. I'm a little confused by these two statements. I know the bullet that went through the head, also passed through one of the arms. Right or left?

Did a different bullet enter the other arm?

Thanks in advance is you can answer.

"Steenkamp suffered multiple wounds as a result of gunshots fired by Pistorius, the court heard.

The upper left arm was deformed due to the amount of fracture, Saayman told the court."
http://citizen.co.za/141361/family-members-console-pistorius/


"He described the wound to Steenkamp's arm as devastating. Her right arm was shattered, leaving it with no functionality."
http://citizen.co.za/141417/steenkamp-took-breaths-head-wound/
Click to expand...

I beleive they have always said: 4 shot fired,3 bullets entered her.

Before they said 1 bullet passed thru her fingers as she was protecting herself .Now I think they are saying 1 other bullet entred her head? from her arm and went into her head. [Unless this is the finger to head shot.]
It is confusng, and Dr S is not finished by the pros.
And after Roux gets done, well there may be much more uncertaioty. (Which is his job.)
 
Shane: Because your hypotheses are buried on the first thread, could you please give them once again? Because I find myself believing a whole lot more things are possible than I did just one week ago!
 
zwiebel said:
Is anyone confident they have a definitive list of Reeva's wounds, and whereabouts they were? If so, please post!
Click to expand...
This is what I've compiled from several reports. Puzzled by the description of the fractured left arm.

HEAD
...likely that one of the bullets had passed through Steenkamp's arm and into her head.
...a bullet entered Steenkamp's head in the right upper part, and ran under the skull before it exited from a second wound in the head.
...a bulk of the projectile went into the brain.
...upper eyelids were blue-reddish
...soft tissue swelling but no injury to the eyes.
...not caused by direct trauma but a fracture to the skull.
...Steenkamp did not take more than a few breaths after suffering her head wound.
...described the wound to her head as an incapacitating wound
...physical damage to the brain because of a substantial fracture to the base of the skull.

RIGHT HIP/GROIN
...a gunshot wound to her right hip, 92cm from the ground. He said a defect he had seen on Steenkamp's pants was in line with this wound.
...right hip bone was shattered and this was likely to cause immediate instability.
..."painful wound"
...injuries to her arm and her right groin or hip area could have been fatal
...would have collapsed and, unless she had something to grip onto, it would have been difficult to get back up.
...incapacitating injury that if not operated on immediately could be fatal. He said there was a 50/50 chance of surviving the injury.
...a blue discoloration on her inner right buttocks that could have been caused from the bullet wound to her right hip.

RIGHT ARM
...right arm was shattered, leaving it with no functionality.
...right upper arm had a bluish discolouration surrounding that wound.


LEFT ARM ???
...upper left arm was deformed due to the amount of fracture...

OTHER
Wounds were caused by multiple small fragments. There was bruising in skin around the wounds.
...a grouping of abrasions, superficial fractures, on the skin of Steenkamp's torso. ...not penetrating injuries.
...injuries to her left groin but these were superficial small abrasions, possibly caused by wooden splinters
...a wound that he noted on Steenkamp's left hand that was between her second and third finger.
Abrasions on her body suggested damage from a blunt object, or projectiles that lost the force to penetrate the skin.
...a few bruises on her body that were not as a result of the shooting.
...no injury to the eyes.
...bruises on the upper part of the right thigh that were not linked to the shooting and behind the left knee and the left shin.
...a reddish bruise on the right nipple. ...could have been caused by frictional contact.
...two scratches on her back. This could have been caused by a blunt object or shrapnel.

http://citizen.co.za/141361/family-m...ole-pistorius/

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/b7b061...ned-bruising-on-her-back,-buttocks-and-breast

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...esigned-to-maximise-tissue-damage-pathologist

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-used-expanding-bullets-expert-1.1659043#.Ux34c4WPNpV

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-head-wound-fatal-pathologist-1.1659020#.Ux34foWPNpW
 
Did Oscar's people ask for this ban on the media reporting of the injuries, or did Reeva's family?

IMO, the person this helps the most is Oscar.

He doesn't have the world hearing what he possibly did to Reeva.
 
zwiebel said:
I am beginning to think Reeva could see the gun aimed at her head, and put her arm up to protect herself. Also, those bruises on the back of the knee and back of the shin - wouldn't they line up with someone's leg being forced back against a ceramic toilet, or maybe a bed frame?

If she had fallen backwards in the toilet, I would expect her to have injured herself on the tile floor/wall....but I guess if Reeva died before bruising could form, perhaps that tissue damage wouldn't show?....yet bruising had time to form on her upper eyelids, from the brain bleed.

I really do not know what a pathologist who has 'ethical issues' about testifying in public, is doing acting as a public/state pathologist. Or is he a private one?
Click to expand...

BBM
Ah, now you are begining to answer my questions...
 
Dmacky said:
Also there have been many reports about his steroid use. Roid rage added to this equation is cetainly posible!
Click to expand...

No, apparently the herbal drug that was found was not a true steroid but some believe it increases sex drive and may increase the testosterone levels but minimally. Various sports bodies have stated it was not on the banned drugs list.
 
bessie said:
This is what I've compiled from several reports. Puzzled by the description of the fractured left arm.

HEAD
...likely that one of the bullets had passed through Steenkamp's arm and into her head.
...a bullet entered Steenkamp's head in the right upper part, and ran under the skull before it exited from a second wound in the head.
...a bulk of the projectile went into the brain.
...upper eyelids were blue-reddish
...soft tissue swelling but no injury to the eyes.
...not caused by direct trauma but a fracture to the skull.
...Steenkamp did not take more than a few breaths after suffering her head wound.
...described the wound to her head as an incapacitating wound
...physical damage to the brain because of a substantial fracture to the base of the skull.

RIGHT HIP/GROIN
...a gunshot wound to her right hip, 92cm from the ground. He said a defect he had seen on Steenkamp's pants was in line with this wound.
...right hip bone was shattered and this was likely to cause immediate instability.
..."painful wound"
...injuries to her arm and her right groin or hip area could have been fatal
...would have collapsed and, unless she had something to grip onto, it would have been difficult to get back up.
...incapacitating injury that if not operated on immediately could be fatal. He said there was a 50/50 chance of surviving the injury.
...a blue discoloration on her inner right buttocks that could have been caused from the bullet wound to her right hip.

RIGHT ARM
...right arm was shattered, leaving it with no functionality.
...right upper arm had a bluish discolouration surrounding that wound.


LEFT ARM ???
...upper left arm was deformed due to the amount of fracture...

OTHER
Wounds were caused by multiple small fragments. There was bruising in skin around the wounds.
...a grouping of abrasions, superficial fractures, on the skin of Steenkamp's torso. ...not penetrating injuries.
...injuries to her left groin but these were superficial small abrasions, possibly caused by wooden splinters
...a wound that he noted on Steenkamp's left hand that was between her second and third finger.
Abrasions on her body suggested damage from a blunt object, or projectiles that lost the force to penetrate the skin.
...a few bruises on her body that were not as a result of the shooting.
...no injury to the eyes.
...bruises on the upper part of the right thigh that were not linked to the shooting and behind the left knee and the left shin.
...a reddish bruise on the right nipple. ...could have been caused by frictional contact.
...two scratches on her back. This could have been caused by a blunt object or shrapnel.

http://citizen.co.za/141361/family-m...ole-pistorius/

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/b7b061...ned-bruising-on-her-back,-buttocks-and-breast

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...esigned-to-maximise-tissue-damage-pathologist

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-used-expanding-bullets-expert-1.1659043#.Ux34c4WPNpV

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-head-wound-fatal-pathologist-1.1659020#.Ux34foWPNpW
Click to expand...

Thank you so much!

The left arm injury is a mystery to me. Wonder if that's a simple mistake? The right arm injury, with bullet passing through to injure right side of the head makes sense.
 
shane13 said:
There is a long and sordid history of when Govts say “this is too gruesome to tell the people about.”

That's what freedom of the press is all about. There either is or isn't freedom of the press. And historically when it is denied, the real reasons are found out, but years later. The Kennedy assassination is the prime example of the people being denied for 12 years what the Zapruder film really showed.

The Govt lied in 1963, and said JFK was slammed forward in the limo. Made arrangements for only one cub reporter to see the Z-film. He lied and gave statement to all the other reporters that JFK was slammed forward. (Unknown reporter was Dan Rather who went quickly to the top of CBS.)
IN 1975 it was actually Geraldo Rivera who first broadcast on ABC TV showing clearly that JFK was slammed backward from a frontal shot. On youtube, you can find Asst W.H Press Secretary Kilduff telling reporters at Parkland Hospital at 1:30 PM that JFK was shot from the front above his right eye. But for 12 years the Govt said Z-film was “too gruesome to allow” the American people to see, and that Kennedy was slammed to the front in the limo.

This case.
Warning Graphic;

Autopsy matters supposedly have been leaked. And we also have the photo of inside the loo when the door photo is clicked that someone else posted a few hours ago.
All the pink matter on the toilet seat is an indication that the exit wound was massive and that brain matter was shot out.

So, JMOOC, the autopsy report will include the entry wound to the skull and a massive exit wound that may have led police on scene to tell reporters that her head must have been bashed in. Again JMOOC. But we did have Det Botha at the BH say IIRC that the only head wounds referred to the bullet. So unless there was earlier lying, this should be it.
Other wounds on her body you all know.

So there shouldn't be any resurrection of the cricket bashing of the skull. But it would help if they allowed the people to actually hear the testimony.

There appears to be no good reason to deny freedom of the press and it should be a concern for all the people of South Africa.
Click to expand...

EXCELLENT analysis, Shane13!!

I even had problems in Jodi Arias case with the Judge doing a lot of things in closed hearings and also putting lock on a lot of the papers in the case to lock for public access.

No one cares about Jodi Arias. But it's the principle of, the Judge is allowing things to go on in secret. And the whole purpose of public trial is for the public to be able to follow it.

JMO.
 
AlwaysShocked said:
Shane: Because your hypotheses are buried on the first thread, could you please give them once again? Because I find myself believing a whole lot more things are possible than I did just one week ago!
Click to expand...

My hypotheses have been posed as questions and are in this thread. Indeed my posts in just the last hour allude to them fairly clearly, so that one may not need to go elsewhere to see the queston in each case.

UPDATE: Below I have explicitly listed my Queries and hypotheses.
 
MeeBee said:
I have been waiting for someone to do an experiment like this. I admit, they sound similar. The bat sounds are noticeably duller, so from recollection I don't expect Dr. Stipp to remember which was duller. The other witnesses of course only heard one set of sounds. This is compelling though.
Click to expand...

I think that, in close proximity, maybe they could sound similar, but not in long proximity. The cricket bad sound will just not travel like the gun shot sound.

This is why Dr. S heard both sounds, because he was closer, while Burger and her husband only heard the gunshots, because they were farther.

IMO there is no question that the sound Burger and her husband heard was the gunshots.

JMO.
 
Carol70 said:
I agree, I'm not going to place too much weight in the added bruising, she led an active lifestyle, gymed, did yoga etc...also, I sometimes get bruising after I've had "happy times" with my husband :blushing: and no, we don't run around after each other welding whips and wearing leather!! :p

I'm curious to find out if she was wearing panties. She may have just slipped her shorts on before quickly going to the loo but if she was wearing panties under her shorts, that almost tells me she never got undressed at all that evening especially if she was still wearing the same clothes she arrived in.
Click to expand...

Some of those nylon Nike sport type shorts have a built in panty for wicking of moisture, in which case panties would not be necessary.

I wonder if we will get our answer to that question.
 
Interested Bystander said:
No, apparently the herbal drug that was found was not a true steroid but some believe it increases sex drive and may increase the testosterone levels but minimally. Various sports bodies have stated it was not on the banned drugs list.
Click to expand...

It was an homeopathic remedy.
It is frequently used by athletes for minor injuries.
 
Lyra500 said:
Isn't that game over?

If these bullets are designed to kill and he deliberately had a gun loaded with them and then deliberately went to shoot someone, discharging four bullets at them in a confined space, how can that not be murder (whoever was in the toilet)?

I wonder if part of Oscar's nausea is related to fear and stress because of the realisation of how deeply he is in the ****. Also, everyone in that court room (and eventually the world i would suspect) will know exactly what he did to Reeva. Nowhere to hide now.
Click to expand...

The whole thing from OP has been a crock from start to finish, IMO. The so-called 'intruder' was inside a locked bathroom. OP could have pulled at RS in the bed and the both of them could have fled to safety.

NO, OP has to go get his gun and fire through a locked bathroom door. He could see to get the gun out from (supposedly) under the bed, but he couldn't see that RS was not in the bed? BS.

Someone had posted the SA law upthread. OP had a duty to retreat to safety if he could before shooting someone. He did not. Instead, he actually advanced toward the imagined intruder behind a locked bathroom door. OP, a man with no legs and at a decided disadvantage to someone with legs.

What happened here in my opinion was that there was an argument, OP lost his temper and was in a rage. I believe he knew what he was doing. He was really brave and big when he was holding that gun. In court facing what he has done, he has turned into a big, vomiting WUSS.

Period. End of statement! (and may be wrong)

GB Reeva, her family, and her friends. This did not have to happen.
 
Carol70 said:
It definitely has been stated there were 3 bullets that hit her, the 4th one missed..but I am just as confused as to the entry wounds. So annoying.
Click to expand...

21merc7 said:
Try this again, my post vanished or something.

From last year:
There were three entrance wounds on Steenkamp's body, one on the right side of her head above her ear, one on her right arm – which broke her arm – and one on her hip.
Click to expand...
More at link:

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-20-pistorius-hearing-what-we-know-so-far
Click to expand...

shane13 said:
I beleive they have always said: 4 shot fired,3 bullets entered her.

Before they said 1 bullet passed thru her fingers as she was protecting herself .Now I think they are saying 1 other bullet entred her head? from her arm and went into her head. [U;ess thisis the finger to head shot.]
It is confusng, and Dr S is not finished by the pros.
And after Roux gets done, well there may be much more uncertaioty. (Which is his job.)
Click to expand...
Three bullets is correct, I believe. One to the head, one to the right arm , and one to the right hip/groin. (Stipp's testimony)

What I'm questioning is the fractured left arm. The way I understand it, a bullet went through one arm, entered her head, and exited leaving a second head wound. I believe the left arm must have been the one struck by the bullet that passed through the head, but I'm not sure and would like to confirm.

This is the problem with blacking out key testimony. Instead of an accurate graphic account, we now have questionable graphic reports.
 
MeeBee said:
Well, well, well...

Oscar says they went to sleep at 10. Reeva was killed around 3. Had eaten a meal within two hours before death...
Click to expand...

Ohhhh my. Yes, he would not have thought about stomach contents. Even Oscar didn't think about that.
 
Oh dear - Vinnie is about to do a demo on HLN with a cricket stick and a door. :thud:
 
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