Happenings of December 26

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Anyhoo, that's where I tend to think it was an accident and cover up, hence they couldn't just run down to wal-mart and buy a pen and paper as they might be seen, receipt traced back to them so they had to use what they had. But you think they would have gotten rid of the pad and pen I dunno, maybe just overlooked the pad and pen and it was too late to get rid of them so they got stuck back where they belong. How does that explain JR giving LE the pad?
So many twists and turns and possibilities.
I wish this case would be solved one day and I still be around to know how the puzzle goes together.
They could have used a scrap piece of wrapping paper from one of the presents, or envelope, packaging, etc and they could have written one or two sentences only, and disposed of the pen.
...

AK
 
I thought about it more and distilled my thoughts down further to this. Here is what troubles me about the entire garrote/ligature/"whatever" strangulation. Whether it is staging or not, it indicates to me that JB's life had no value to the killer. Whether she lived or died didn't matter to the person doing it. Whoever did it did not care about JB as a person and was not going to miss her when she was dead. They had no human feeling or compassion toward JB. This troubles me because, short of being completely psychotic, I cannot see any R family member feeling this way toward JB. It troubles me because it paints a picture of an intruder who really did not give a *advertiser censored** about JB as a human being. I know I argued JR did it with that specific purpose in mind but I cannot even see JR as being this cold blooded toward his daughter. He did value her. PR valued her even more than JR. BR valued her. This is what does not make sense to me. To kill so coldly someone that you value does not make sense. To kill so coldly someone that you do not value does make sense. Of the three Ramsey's, I believe the person who valued JB the least was BR but he would have to have been psychotic to have strangled her to death.
I agree with almost every word here.

And, not just the garrote/ligature/"whatever" strangulation, but the head blow and the penetration. All simple, intentional, efficient and callous acts.
...

AK
 
If one were wanting to fake a realistic crime scene, the choice of the paint brush handle as the strangulation device handle would be most illogical, in the same way
as writing a RN using a pad and pen from the house was most illogical. A realistic crime scene would not use something that pointed directly back to the family, IMO. Do you consider the RN a realistic crime scene? I don't. Nor do I consider the garrote fashioned around her neck and using the broken paint brush handle realistic. It is like the person who did it didn't care if it was realistic or not, kind of like the RN.

I agree with on many points you said but I am still troubled by this one part of it. The garrote reveals a lot about the killer, staging or not. The decision to use that stick shows the emotions and thought processes of the person doing it. Any normal person would be terrified because of what they were doing: killing a child, but this person was not terrified. This person didn't care. This person might even have enjoyed it.

Anyhoo,
Its unlikely that the person who killed JonBenet is the same person who faked her death.

Who knows what they were thinking. The results of the staging are amateurish and patently ad-hoc, the R's simply used what was to hand in an attempt to fake an abduction.

It is not Hannibal Lecter or Ted Bundy we are profiling here, it is someone who is ignorant of what a realistic crime-scene would look like. Whether they are arrogant, cruel, or terrified cannot mask their inability to construct a viable crime-scene.

.
 
I thought about it more and distilled my thoughts down further to this. Here is what troubles me about the entire garrote/ligature/"whatever" strangulation. Whether it is staging or not, it indicates to me that JB's life had no value to the killer. Whether she lived or died didn't matter to the person doing it. Whoever did it did not care about JB as a person and was not going to miss her when she was dead. They had no human feeling or compassion toward JB. This troubles me because, short of being completely psychotic, I cannot see any R family member feeling this way toward JB. It troubles me because it paints a picture of an intruder who really did not give a *advertiser censored** about JB as a human being. I know I argued JR did it with that specific purpose in mind but I cannot even see JR as being this cold blooded toward his daughter. He did value her. PR valued her even more than JR. BR valued her. This is what does not make sense to me. To kill so coldly someone that you value does not make sense. To kill so coldly someone that you do not value does make sense. Of the three Ramsey's, I believe the person who valued JB the least was BR but he would have to have been psychotic to have strangled her to death.

Anyhoo,
The decision to kill JonBenet was taken long before she was actually asphyxiated.

No 911 call for medical assistance is all you need to know. She was ligature strangled after being whacked on the head, not before!

JonBenet was murdered so she would never tell who had been molesting her, this is what lies behind all the crime-scene staging.

A head injury can be explained away by a fall down the stairs, a neck abrasion by children fighting, but an acute sexual assault along with evidence of prior chronic abuse could never be erased, and the R's knew this.

.
 
IMO, PR and JR took arrogance to a whole new level, not just in disguising a tragic domestic event. It was the aftermath. From figuring they might just fly away to Georgia (on business), throw the housekeeper under the bus (along with other), take to TV within a little over a week to immediately shore up their image. The parade that the GJ had not indicted them. Then came the book writing, the lawsuits to protect BR’s image, and then the “henchman” LW threatening B officials with lawsuits. Self-absorption (what some term borderline/narcissism?), desperation and extreme arrogance will allow for the most outrageous actions.

I’ve no words for “the henchman,” so perhaps his words to Walter Davis, an author who wrote a book about JB, should speak for him. Davis received an email from LW in which he threatens "publish your accusatory book and I will bankrupt you with a suit… I will buy another Jaguar and thoroughbred race horse with the proceeds from another legal victory for the Ramseys."
__________________________
RE this thread tonight - me, three. Just when I figured out on the ligatures thread what the word bloviator means, (I figure it’s a terminator with a blow torch :smile:), switched over here and been switching gears so fast I feel like that spun cat Bluebottle refers to. :crazy:

MHO

questfortrue,
ITA. To the rich and famous they are known as Problem Solvers or Fixers, you have a problem I'll get my solicitor to litigate it away, its standard corporate procedure, checkout Apple vs Google vs Samsung here.

If I were to write a book about the death of JonBenet this is the perspective that I would use, and not that of Lou Smit, Steve Thomas or James Kolar.

I would review all the legal moves including that of the GJ and Hunter's decision not to prosecute, along with all the relationships between the allegedly neutral parties.

Since this was the main method used by the R's to evade public scrutiny. And since guilt cannot be established absolutely we can at least outline all the measures taken to hide in the long grass, i.e. who purchased the R's house and why?


.
 
questfortrue,
ITA. To the rich and famous they are known as Problem Solvers or Fixers, you have a problem I'll get my solicitor to litigate it away, its standard corporate procedure, checkout Apple vs Google vs Samsung here.

If I were to write a book about the death of JonBenet this is the perspective that I would use, and not that of Lou Smit, Steve Thomas or James Kolar.

I would review all the legal moves including that of the GJ and Hunter's decision not to prosecute, along with all the relationships between the allegedly neutral parties.

Since this was the main method used by the R's to evade public scrutiny. And since guilt cannot be established absolutely we can at least outline all the measures taken to hide in the long grass, i.e. who purchased the R's house and why?


.

Interesting, yet not surprising quote!

The actions by the DA(s) have been unethical to say the least. Of course it is often natural for the DA's office and a victims family to become united in their quest for a perpetrator. But how do we explain what happened here? It's well documented the concessions they were afforded, and this should have never happened given the fact that the Rs have always been considered suspects. ML in particular should have been investigated for her role in this travesty.

I've been catching up on these threads....

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=455"]Rebuttal to Discovery I.D. Show about JonBenet - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

In particular, just read this...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6372442&postcount=94"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)[/ame]

It really illustrates how much focus was spent on other suspects and leads that weren't the Rs. Yet it always led back to them, and the DAs office just kept pushing their head further and further into the sand...
 
No. I think she was a stressed out, unorganized, narcissistic woman.
I think perhaps when they got home John went to bed leaving Patsy the job of getting kids snacks, into bed, packing for two trips, last minute wrapping etc...
I'm
Not sure what happened...but she could have whacked her in a split second of rage.
Rather than face what she'd done, and being wildly dramatic and over the top simply desired to distance herself from it all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is pretty much always my fall back theory, although I think Burke hitting her is also a possibility, although I don't think he was part of the cover up.

At any rate, this is essentially the Steve Thomas basic theory and it makes sense to me on so many levels. Including the idea that John was unaware until the next morning when it started to gel for him what had happened, or at least that something really, really bad had happened.

I think that is why Patsy called everyone over. To avoid John confronting her, although I am sure that moment came eventually.
 
I thought about it more and distilled my thoughts down further to this. Here is what troubles me about the entire garrote/ligature/"whatever" strangulation. Whether it is staging or not, it indicates to me that JB's life had no value to the killer. Whether she lived or died didn't matter to the person doing it. Whoever did it did not care about JB as a person and was not going to miss her when she was dead. They had no human feeling or compassion toward JB. This troubles me because, short of being completely psychotic, I cannot see any R family member feeling this way toward JB. It troubles me because it paints a picture of an intruder who really did not give a *advertiser censored** about JB as a human being. I know I argued JR did it with that specific purpose in mind but I cannot even see JR as being this cold blooded toward his daughter. He did value her. PR valued her even more than JR. BR valued her. This is what does not make sense to me. To kill so coldly someone that you value does not make sense. To kill so coldly someone that you do not value does make sense. Of the three Ramsey's, I believe the person who valued JB the least was BR but he would have to have been psychotic to have strangled her to death.

It is not that far fetched at all, unfortunately. After Jeffrey MacDonald, a so called "devoted and doting" father who had just gifted his precious little girls with Pony two month previous, murdered his wife and oldest daughter, he went into the youngest daughters room, and stabbed her something like 45 times (sorry, don't have access to the precise number, suffice it to say it was excessive) with an ice pick in order to further his staging of an attack by crazed hippies (who apparently felt much more threatened by two baby girls than an able bodied young Marine).

Darlie Routier stabbed her two little boys repeatedly.

Susan Smith strapped her babies into the back seat of a car and drowned them (just imagine the time it took for the vehicle to go down, while their mommy stood and watched) because the guy she wanted to date didn't want kids. Even while she could have relinquished custody to the children's father instead of murdering them

Diane Downs looked her three babies in the eye and then shot them!

Those are a fraction the truly heinous cases that come to mind. Not one of those baby killers had a history of documented mental illness, violence or child abuse. Every single one of them had, at various times by various people, been
described at loving, wonderful parents.

I am not sure what it is you see in the Ramsey's that somehow sets them apart from these other cases? Patsy was so clearly a narcissist. Just like the way she kept her house, messy in the parts people didn't see, a showplace where they could, I believe she lived her life. The children were accessories.
 
It is not that far fetched at all, unfortunately. After Jeffrey MacDonald, a so called "devoted and doting" father who had just gifted his precious little girls with Pony two month previous, murdered his wife and oldest daughter, hewent into the youngest daughters room, and stabbed her something like 45 times (sorry, don't have access to the precise number, suffice it to say it was excessive) with an ice pick in order to further his staging of an attack my crazed hippies (who apparently felt much more threatened by two baby girls than an able bodied young Marine).

Darlie Routier stabbed her two little boys repeatedly.

Susan Smith strapped her babies into the back seat of a car and drowned them (just imagine the time it took for the vehicle to go down, while their mommy stood and watched) because the guy she wanted to date didn't want kids. Even while she could have relinquished custody to the children's father instead of murdering them

Diane Downs looked her three babies in the eye and then shot them!

Those are a fraction the truly heinous cases that come to mind. Not one of those baby killers had a history of documented mental illness, violence or child abuse. Every single one of them had, at various times by various people, been
described at loving, wonderful parents.

I am not sure what it is you see in the Ramsey's that somehow sets them apart from these other cases? Patsy was so clearly a narcissist. Just like the way she kept her house, messy in the parts people didn't see, a showplace where they could, I believe she lived her life. The children were accessories.


Completely agree..no one ever knows what goes on behind another family's closed door.

I actually have a very good example, that hit very close to home, and next month will mark the 5th anniversary of the tradgedy.

For those members who live in the NY/Long Island area, this story will be familiar.

I live in a community that is very similar to the Rs lifestyle.

I knew this family in our community b/c my daughter was in the same grade as their youngest daughter. They were considered the perfect family. He was a successful real estate attorney, and coached his girls sports teams. The mom was a homemaker, who was active in the PTA, super involved with her girls and chaired several charities. Everyone knew them, and they were very well liked. My daughter used to have play dates with the one daughter when they were in kindergarten/1st grade.

5 years ago, we returned from a spring break vacation on a Sunday night. I kept my kids home the following Monday, b/c we got home late, and they both seemed to have caught colds while we were away. I was checking my email on that Monday, when an "important" notice email from the school district came in. It said, "due to the tragic death of the xxxxx family...." I couldn't understand what could have happened. Was it a car accident? A house fire? A plane crash? I couldn't think of anything else that could have wiped out the whole family, and started calling friends. The initial reports stated that while the parents and their 12 year old daughter were visiting their eldest daughter at college, the family was found dead in their hotel room. Rumors began that it was a possible murder(s)/suicide.

I knew I had to tell me own daughter b/c she would be returning to,school the next day. I didn't want her to go to school without knowing as this was a girl she knew very well. I called her downstairs, and said I have some bad news. I told her that the xxxx family had been found murdered. I was trying to be as tactful as possible, as I didn't have all the facts. She was very upset, and started asking questions. I said I didn't know what happened, just that they were found dead. She started freaking out, and crying, and said, "but mom, what if they come to our house?! What are we going to do? When will they catch these guys?"

It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to tell her, when I said, "the
police think that maybe the dad did it." Needless to say that caused even more crying, and questions.

I assumed that the father probably smothered, or possibly drugged his family before taking his own life.

I WAS WRONG....

This upstanding father, and husband had evidently gotten involved in some sort small-scale Ponzi scheme, and lost the family money, as well as the money of his friends and business associates. Why he felt the need to kill himself, and his wife and daughters will never be known or understood. But the violence, and calculation involved was frightening.

After going out to dinner as a family, their eldest returned to school, and the family returned to the hotel. That's when dear old dad went into action. The wife and 12 year old daughter were bludgeoned to death....BLUDGEONED TO DEATH!!!!

He then calls his older daughter, and says "you need to come back to the hotel." Using what excuse I've no idea. When she returns, she suffers the same fate. He "gently" lays all three down on the bed, walks across the street to a local store, buys a knife, and waits a couple of hours before using it to stab himself until he bled to death on the bathroom floor. They were found on Monday morning by the cleaning staff.

The vision that STILL haunts me is that K had to have witnessed her mother's murder. And how scared and sickened she must have felt when she knew her father was about to murder her in the same way.

Before he killed himself, the roommates of his oldest daughter called to ask if everything was ok, b/c they had expected her to have been back already. He calmly told them, "she won't be coming back." They assumed he meant she would be staying the night with her family. And I guess you could say she did.

I apologize for such a long post, but it illustrates, first hand, how these things can happen in a seemingly "normal, happy, loving" family. All b/c he was too ashamed to have everyone find out he lost his money, and the money of his friends. Looking back it's also interesting to me to remember my daughter's reaction.

In a way I think it was better that he did go though with killing himself. There was no "investigation." There was no denial by him that an intruder did it, or accusations that one of the people he cheated wanted to exact revenge, or even a BS story that he couldn't remember what happened b/c he was so traumatized. There was no trial, no drawn out media circus. It was simply over.

:crying:
 
How sad, bettybaby. It's not just the family who suffers when something like this happens, but countless others who have to deal with the pain of knowing what happened. Thanks for sharing.
 
How sad, bettybaby. It's not just the family who suffers when something like this happens, but countless others who have to deal with the pain of knowing what happened. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks everyone :)

Sometimes I don't think about it for months at a time, and then something will remind me, especially this time of year. I was by no means "close" with this family, but i certainly knew them, and had the younger daughter over quite a bit when she and my daughter were younger.

It just hits home when you picture your own kid being in such a situation, and again, the whole "they were such a great family" illusion is shattered.

The idea that the Rs were categorically incapable of committing this crime based on reputation, and outward appearances is naive at best.
 
You are correct that we don't know what anyone is capable of when pushed far enough. If someone within the R family felt threatened with exposure as something bad that could have resulted in the loss of everything that person had worked for then there is no limit to how far someone might go to protect themselves. Murdering a child is a pretty extreme thing. If someone felt it was justified they must have been really afraid of something else, so much so that they would go to that extreme. Everyone wants to finger PR for this but I am looking at JR. Now this man had a lot to lose by exposure as a child molester. If charged and the charges could be proven he stood to lose all. How far would he go to protect his empire? A daughter murdered by an "intruder" is preferable to being in jail and having everyone know who you really are.
 
Completely agree..no one ever knows what goes on behind another family's closed door.



I actually have a very good example, that hit very close to home, and next month will mark the 5th anniversary of the tradgedy.



For those members who live in the NY/Long Island area, this story will be familiar.



I live in a community that is very similar to the Rs lifestyle.



I knew this family in our community b/c my daughter was in the same grade as their youngest daughter. They were considered the perfect family. He was a successful real estate attorney, and coached his girls sports teams. The mom was a homemaker, who was active in the PTA, super involved with her girls and chaired several charities. Everyone knew them, and they were very well liked. My daughter used to have play dates with the one daughter when they were in kindergarten/1st grade.



5 years ago, we returned from a spring break vacation on a Sunday night. I kept my kids home the following Monday, b/c we got home late, and they both seemed to have caught colds while we were away. I was checking my email on that Monday, when an "important" notice email from the school district came in. It said, "due to the tragic death of the xxxxx family...." I couldn't understand what could have happened. Was it a car accident? A house fire? A plane crash? I couldn't think of anything else that could have wiped out the whole family, and started calling friends. The initial reports stated that while the parents and their 12 year old daughter were visiting their eldest daughter at college, the family was found dead in their hotel room. Rumors began that it was a possible murder(s)/suicide.



I knew I had to tell me own daughter b/c she would be returning to,school the next day. I didn't want her to go to school without knowing as this was a girl she knew very well. I called her downstairs, and said I have some bad news. I told her that the xxxx family had been found murdered. I was trying to be as tactful as possible, as I didn't have all the facts. She was very upset, and started asking questions. I said I didn't know what happened, just that they were found dead. She started freaking out, and crying, and said, "but mom, what if they come to our house?! What are we going to do? When will they catch these guys?"



It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to tell her, when I said, "the

police think that maybe the dad did it." Needless to say that caused even more crying, and questions.



I assumed that the father probably smothered, or possibly drugged his family before taking his own life.



I WAS WRONG....



This upstanding father, and husband had evidently gotten involved in some sort small-scale Ponzi scheme, and lost the family money, as well as the money of his friends and business associates. Why he felt the need to kill himself, and his wife and daughters will never be known or understood. But the violence, and calculation involved was frightening.



After going out to dinner as a family, their eldest returned to school, and the family returned to the hotel. That's when dear old dad went into action. The wife and 12 year old daughter were bludgeoned to death....BLUDGEONED TO DEATH!!!!



He then calls his older daughter, and says "you need to come back to the hotel." Using what excuse I've no idea. When she returns, she suffers the same fate. He "gently" lays all three down on the bed, walks across the street to a local store, buys a knife, and waits a couple of hours before using it to stab himself until he bled to death on the bathroom floor. They were found on Monday morning by the cleaning staff.



The vision that STILL haunts me is that K had to have witnessed her mother's murder. And how scared and sickened she must have felt when she knew her father was about to murder her in the same way.



Before he killed himself, the roommates of his oldest daughter called to ask if everything was ok, b/c they had expected her to have been back already. He calmly told them, "she won't be coming back." They assumed he meant she would be staying the night with her family. And I guess you could say she did.



I apologize for such a long post, but it illustrates, first hand, how these things can happen in a seemingly "normal, happy, loving" family. All b/c he was too ashamed to have everyone find out he lost his money, and the money of his friends. Looking back it's also interesting to me to remember my daughter's reaction.



In a way I think it was better that he did go though with killing himself. There was no "investigation." There was no denial by him that an intruder did it, or accusations that one of the people he cheated wanted to exact revenge, or even a BS story that he couldn't remember what happened b/c he was so traumatized. There was no trial, no drawn out media circus. It was simply over.



:crying:


While this is tragic it has nothing to do with this case. This man was in the middle of fraud and was going to be caught and went psycho.

That's not what happened here. Not even close.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)
 
While this is tragic it has nothing to do with this case. This man was in the middle of fraud and was going to be caught and went psycho.

That's not what happened here. Not even close.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)

What if the man in this case was involved in the sexual molestation of his daughter and feared he was about to be caught/exposed for what he was? The parallels between the two cases could be very similar Scarlett.
 
What if the man in this case was involved in the sexual molestation of his daughter and feared he was about to be caught/exposed for what he was? The parallels between the two cases could be very similar Scarlett.


No it doesn't. That would mean that he would kill the whole family so they would not be part of the ensuing scandal and cover up.
Killing jbr would not cover his crime. It would make people look at it more closely. Again it does not fit with him being the molester if there was one.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)
 
I can see the parallels and I appreciate the story being shared. To just flat out dismiss it is incredibly rude.
 
Here we go again. :pullhair:

Bettybaby, what a sad story. I too can see the parallels.
 
No it doesn't. That would mean that he would kill the whole family so they would not be part of the ensuing scandal and cover up.
Killing jbr would not cover his crime. It would make people look at it more closely. Again it does not fit with him being the molester if there was one.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)

Why kill the entire family when you can just kill the one you are vulnerable to, especially when you have a wife who helps you cover it up? It is a theory, Scarlett, but certainly no more implausible than an "intruder" who comes out of nowhere and leaves the same way. In this theory, JB is the only one in the family who could really bring JR down (by talking to people outside of the family).
 
Here we go again. :pullhair:

Bettybaby, what a sad story. I too can see the parallels.

I guess this means we should only offer experiences or anecdotes that convey pro-Ramsey parallels.

:confused:
 
While this is tragic it has nothing to do with this case. This man was in the middle of fraud and was going to be caught and went psycho.

That's not what happened here. Not even close.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)

I agree. I don't see how a case where a man killed his family after being involved in a ponzi scheme relates to this case at all. A guy losing all of his money, going crazy, then killing everyone he loves and then himself, doesn't remotely fit in with this case. MOO.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
95
Guests online
2,189
Total visitors
2,284

Forum statistics

Threads
601,747
Messages
18,129,217
Members
231,138
Latest member
mjF7nx
Back
Top