Trial Discussion Thread #30

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Trooper said:
wasn't that comment astounding !!... lets set the scene... Oscar is kneeling on the hallway, the dead and mangled body of Reeva between his legs , his fingers clenched in her teeth in her death spasm, his other hand on her shattered groin.. he has just shot four times at her... hark! a knock on the door... a stranger.. 'Im a doctor, can I help?'....

and Oscar has the time and the mindset to form the impression , as this stranger extracts his fingers from a dead womans throat, freeing him from his captivity, that this stranger is 'overwhelmed'.......'doesn't know what he's doing'...

there is something very very wrong here.. that Oscar could find the time to come to this conclusion at that time in that situation.. something very very off and beyond strange..
Click to expand...

That's a fantastic point Trooper, even more so when you think of all the thing's Oscar doesn't remember, which include Telling Stipp "i shot her, i thought she was a burglar".
By the way welcome back mate.
 
Karmady said:
putative private (self) defense has a subjective component. Someone just posted a very recent SA case that sets it out really simply. The court only has to reasonably believe that Oscar did believe he was in dire danger from an intruder -- whether or not his belief was objectively reasonable. Very different from American law. I highly recommend that decision to everyone since, imo, it'll go a long way to putting posters on the same page about what needs to be proven. It's within the last couple of pages.

jmo
Click to expand...

I will repost it, but you have to remember (as I said when I posted it) that Oscar's case is the FIRST in SA legal history, in which putative self defense is being offered as a defense, when there was NO contact at all between the perceived aggressor and the accused (Oscar).
The putative self defense 'offering' is only as good as the psychologist testifying for the defense and Oscar's OWN testimony (which was a disaster)

If putative self defence is successful in Oscar's specific case, the backlash will be unreal, as the precedent is too tragic to contend with. Courts full......


http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf

I doubt he is going to be successful. He won't evade both murder and culpable homicide. Case law almost makes that impossible. This chap (Mkhize) had an altercation with those he felt threatened him, making his fears real.

Oscar heard a 'window slide'.

Just my opinion.
 
james83 said:
First double taps, then all of a sudden bullets in rapid succession, but definitely not tailoring there evidence, o.k then.
Click to expand...

They have jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire because there had to have been a brief pause in the shooting to allow Reeva time to fall and take a defensive position :)
 
Cape Town Crim. said:
I will repost it, but you have to remember (as I said when I posted it) that Oscar's case is the FIRST in SA legal history, in which putative self defense is being offered as a defense, when there was NO contact at all between the perceived aggressor and the accused (Oscar).
The putative self defense 'offering' is only as good as the psychologist testifying for the defense and Oscar's OWN testimony (which was a disaster)

If putative self defence is successful in Oscar's specific case, the backlash will be unreal, as the precedent is too tragic to contend with. Courts full......


http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf

I doubt he is going to be successful. He won't evade both murder and culpable homicide. Case law almost makes that impossible. This chap (Mkhize) had an altercation with those he felt threatened him, making his fears real.

Oscar heard a 'window slide'.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification.

In that case, I am not sure how this case could possibly be used to argue that OP is likely to be acquitted (except possibly if one is desperate to find OP 'not guilty' no matter what).
 
I cant get past the fact that while he was in the situation he was in, he still was able to watch what other people were doing !!.. ..


and form and opinion on their capacities!...


the body!. the carnage, the slaughter, the panic he said he had, the frantic call for an ambulance, the crazed rush to get Reeva to a hospital, the attempts at resuscitation , the entry of the Standars, Baba , then Stipp, Reeva plainly dead , but Oscar.. cool, beady eyed, Mr Critique, Mr Healer, Mr I'm in Charge, is able to watch and judge and form an opinion on the medical activities of Dr Stipp..


its grotesque.
 
Lyra500 said:
Thanks for the clarification.

In that case, I am not sure how this case could possibly be used to argue that OP is likely to be acquitted (except possibly if one is desperate to find OP 'not guilty' no matter what).
Click to expand...

I suppose, but that's not why I posted it...so
 
james83 said:
First double taps, then all of a sudden bullets in rapid succession, but definitely not tailoring there evidence, o.k then.
Click to expand...

After Barry attempted to mangle Chris Mangena on the stand re: double taps and Mangena's look of utter disbelief whilst Barry 'drove his point home'. If I recall Mangena said, 'double tap'? "Impossible. Only for those who shoot competitively and the bullets would not have hit her where they did - too spaced out for the speed of a double tap." And then Mangena almost rolled his eyes.

Fast forward: No, not double tap. Rapid succession.

Camera goes to Nel and that look.............. :floorlaugh:

A little while later Mangena was also caught giggling in the background.

Honestly, what were the DT thinking. :floorlaugh:
 
Trooper said:
I cant get past the fact that while he was in the situation he was in, he still was able to watch what other people were doing !!.. ..


and form and opinion on their capacities!...


the body!. the carnage, the slaughter, the panic he said he had, the frantic call for an ambulance, the crazed rush to get Reeva to a hospital, the attempts at resuscitation , the entry of the Standars, Baba , then Stipp, Reeva plainly dead , but Oscar.. cool, beady eyed, Mr Critique, Mr Healer, Mr I'm in Charge, is able to watch and judge and form an opinion on the medical activities of Dr Stipp..


its grotesque.
Click to expand...

This is why it amazes me when people on here say his action's after the shooting don't come across as those of a guilty man, the first person he called was Johan Stander, can anyone relate to that?, finding your partner in a pool of blood and not calling for medical help first?.
 
Trooper said:
wasn't that comment astounding !!... lets set the scene... Oscar is kneeling on the hallway, the dead and mangled body of Reeva between his legs , his fingers clenched in her teeth in her death spasm, his other hand on her shattered groin.. he has just shot four times at her... hark! a knock on the door... a stranger.. 'Im a doctor, can I help?'....

and Oscar has the time and the mindset to form the impression , as this stranger extracts his fingers from a dead womans throat, freeing him from his captivity, that this stranger is 'overwhelmed'.......'doesn't know what he's doing'...

there is something very very wrong here.. that Oscar could find the time to come to this conclusion at that time in that situation.. something very very off and beyond strange..
Click to expand...

james83 said:
That's a fantastic point Trooper, even more so when you think of all the thing's Oscar doesn't remember, which include Telling Stipp "i shot her, i thought she was a burglar".
By the way welcome back mate.
Click to expand...

I have always felt that there was a fairly obvious motive for OP to want to try and discredit Dr Stipp.

Dr & Mrs Stipp's testimony go a long way to making OP's version of events untenable. Barry Roux and Oldwage really put the boot into Mrs Stipp, but Dr Stipp needed to be 'sorted' as he was a very persuasive and credible witness. Hence OP's ham-fisted attempt to suggest he is incompetent. He was concerned about the testimony and resentful about what he probably sees as unwarranted interference in his affairs. How dare Dr Stipp come over and invite himself in and then have the gall to appear as a prosecution witness?

I trust MiLady will see this for the tawdry and contemptible ruse it is.
 
Lyra500 said:
Thanks for the clarification.

In that case, I am not sure how this case could possibly be used to argue that OP is likely to be acquitted (except possibly if one is desperate to find OP 'not guilty' no matter what).
Click to expand...

I just posted this judgement because it dealt specifically with putative self defense on appeal. It was handed down last Monday. So it is honestly the latest 'case law' on record.

There are some points relevant, and it gives one an idea as to just how tough putative self defense actually is to 'prove'.

This man's original conviction for murder was overturned on appeal (due to his successful PSD offering, but he was still guilty of culpable homicide.

Oscar is in trouble IMHO.
 
Cape Town Crim. said:
I will repost it, but you have to remember (as I said when I posted it) that Oscar's case is the FIRST in SA legal history, in which putative self defense is being offered as a defense, when there was NO contact at all between the perceived aggressor and the accused (Oscar).
The putative self defense 'offering' is only as good as the psychologist testifying for the defense and Oscar's OWN testimony (which was a disaster)

If putative self defence is successful in Oscar's specific case, the backlash will be unreal, as the precedent is too tragic to contend with. Courts full......


http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf

I doubt he is going to be successful. He won't evade both murder and culpable homicide. Case law almost makes that impossible. This chap (Mkhize) had an altercation with those he felt threatened him, making his fears real.

Oscar heard a 'window slide'.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Thanks. To be clear, I wasn't commenting that it would necessarily apply to acquit pistorius. I was focused on the subjective aspect of the putative personal defense issue since there's been a lot of back and forth about exactly what the standard is.

Here's one of the snips from your link I was talking about:

The only issue was whether the State had proved beyond reasonable
doubt that the appellant did not, subjectively, entertain an honest belief that
his life was in danger and thus not justified to act in putative private defence.
 
Cape Town Crim. said:
After Barry attempted to mangle Chris Mangena on the stand re: double taps and Mangena's look of utter disbelief whilst Barry 'drove his point home'. If I recall Mangena said, 'double tap'? "Impossible. Only for those who shoot competitively and the bullets would not have hit her where they did - too spaced out for the speed of a double tap." And then Mangena almost rolled his eyes.

Fast forward: No, not double tap. Rapid succession.

Camera goes to Nel and that look.............. :floorlaugh:

A little while later Mangena was also caught giggling in the background.

Honestly, what were the DT thinking. :floorlaugh:
Click to expand...

I reckon Oscar put Roux up to that. Oscar bigging himself up , and Roux in a moment of inattention running with it.. it was the second time , too.. Oscar had told Roux that the police photographer took MANY pics of him, SO MANY he was offended by this, Roux ran with it , got the photographer to get back on the stand to produce the other pics, the MANY.. and it was 5 more. 4 originally for a total of 9 altogether, Roux collapsed and let it drop.. but I bet Roux was furious.
 
TrueDetective said:
Molly you are using an event/possible reason that even the defence hasn't used.
Why would you even do that?

It's like me saying that the reason OP shot RS is because SHE threatened him with an air rifle.. When nobody is saying that and it's not the state's case - so why suggest it.
Click to expand...

1) I heard a lawyer suggest it on that SA legal round table

2) Defense case is just starting
 
Cape Town Crim. said:
I just posted this judgement because it dealt specifically with putative self defense on appeal. It was handed down last Monday. So it is honestly the latest 'case law' on record.

There are some points relevant, and it gives one an idea as to just how tough putative self defense actually is to 'prove'.

This man's original conviction for murder was overturned on appeal (due to his successful PSD offering, but he was still guilty of culpable homicide.

Oscar is in trouble IMHO.
Click to expand...

Thank you again

Yes - it is helpful to know that there will still be very stringent scrutiny of any evidence to support a claim of putative self defence.
 
james83 said:
This is why it amazes me when people on here say his action's after the shooting don't come across as those of a guilty man, the first person he called was Johan Stander, can anyone relate to that?, finding your partner in a pool of blood and not calling for medical help first?.
Click to expand...

His actions after the 'fact' were more damning that anything that came before.

I'm waiting for the Standers on the cross. I believe Gerrie is as well.

Gerrie alluded to Oscar 'covering up' and trying to protect his guilty act and conscience when Oscar was on the stand. He said, "You didn't want Mr Baba there". Considering Clarice Stander was blocking Baba at the front door and running the door like a bouncer, she and her daddy have quite a few questions to answer.

Personally, I reckon Oscar wanted Reeva's body out of the house. Bags/rope etc. He wanted the Stander to take her somewhere (hospital etc) allowing him time at his home to 'clean up upstairs'; before the 'crowds' arrived.

That was his intention.

And for that alone he belongs here --------> :jail:
 
Lyra500 said:
I have always felt that there was a fairly obvious motive for OP to want to try and discredit Dr Stipp.

Dr & Mrs Stipp's testimony go a long way to making OP's version of events untenable. Barry Roux and Oldwage really put the boot into Mrs Stipp, but Dr Stipp needed to be 'sorted' as he was a very persuasive and credible witness. Hence OP's ham-fisted attempt to suggest he is incompetent. He was concerned about the testimony and resentful about what he probably sees as unwarranted interference in his affairs. How dare Dr Stipp come over and invite himslef in and then have the gall to appear as a prosecution witness?

I trust MiLady will see this for the tawdry and contemptible ruse it is.
Click to expand...
I personally think Dr and Mrs Stipp's are the star witnesses in this case .
They looked directly on the windows and have a firm grasp of the time lines.
I regard their testimony to be the most damming to OP's case .
Although some people believe Mrs Stipp's has to some degree being discredited I still think highly of her testimony.
She had discussed with friends how haunting the females screaming was before she was even interviewed and before she knew it was Op
 
Jim Kirk said:
Thanks.

That's a shame.

Oh well, suppose I'll watch the past few days again and continue my notes.



Thanks bud.
Click to expand...


Just watch Dixon over and over again :floorlaugh:

At the very least it's highly entertaining, in a Hyacinth Bucket sort of way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Staff online

Members online

... and 163 more.
Total: 2,698 (members: 164, guests: 2,534)

Online statistics

Members online
164
Guests online
2,534
Total visitors
2,698
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
602,940
Messages
18,149,314
Members
231,595
Latest member
Finch5800
Back
Top