Oscar Pistorius Defense

One thing that just hit me, rereading his account, he never saw Reeva in the 'pitch dark' bedroom but apparently had no problem locating his gun.

BritsKate said:

One thing that just hit me, rereading his account, he never saw Reeva in the 'pitch dark' bedroom but apparently had no problem locating his gun.

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I think he said he felt for it rather than saw it, he knew roughly where he had put it....that's his story anyhow.

I don't know when OP decided on the 'intruder story'....it was a matter of minutes , perhaps seconds ... I don't know if he tried it out on Standar first, since Standar hasn't testified... but the first time it's made public is Oscar's explanation to Dr Stipp.. 'I shot her, I killed her, I thought she was an intruder'... Stipp is told this as he moves toward Reevas body on the hallway floor...


Once Dr Stipp has decided there is nothing more he can do for Reeva, ( and this doesn't take long) he goes home to his own place, and his own anxious wife, still with no clue of who Oscar is.. but it's obvious that he is sceptical of Oscars story.. when Oscars lawyer rings, ( after the 4am warning of its eventuality by Standar to Stipp) Dr Stipp isn't having a bar of what Oscars lawyer is either asking or telling him. Hence, him being a witness for the prosecution.

The only person who called the police on that night was Dr Stipp. he called them before he left home and when he got back home. His first call went to error, but not the one he made when he returned home..

So really. from the first, the 'intruder story' had its detractors, its unbelievers, and its skeptics...

BritsKate said:

One thing that just hit me, rereading his account, he never saw Reeva in the 'pitch dark' bedroom but apparently had no problem locating his gun.

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never saw her, never heard her...


how odd is that??

soozieqtips said:

OP changed his story from going out on the balcony to not going out on the balcony. According to Nel, OP would have had to have turned slightly to put the fan where he claims he put it. If he'd have turned, he'd have seen Reeva's cell phone light (which OP said she could have used to light the way to the toilet). But Reeva knew OP was awake, so why didn't she switch the light on? Who chooses to use a cell phone as a light when there's an actual light to switch on and when your partner's already up and busy with fans and what not. Don't forget that this window-sliding frame-hitting noise OP heard above the sound of the fan (which would have been right near his face) was not acknowledged by Reeva, and she would have heard it much louder than him - and yet he didn't think it strange at all that she hadn't said 'What's that'?. His story is simply outlandish and his versions have changed with the wind.

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How does OP changing his story from going out on the balcony to not going out on the balcony work in his favour though? I honestly can't see how that would help him at all. I really don't think he lied intentionally, I just think there may have been a misunderstanding on what he actually meant in his bail application. How strong was the light on Reeva's cell phone? If it's anything like mine and someone turned it on while I was focussed/concentrating on positioning/moving a fan that was running, the light would not distract me! Sorry, it just would not! By the time he had finished positioning the fan, Reeva could already have been in the bathroom. He could have moved even slightly away from the fan and he would have heard the noise from the window opening quite clearly--it was coming from the opposite direction, wasn't it? I think there would be quite a few people who wouldn't feel the need to switch a light on to go to the bathroom. Even as a guest at someone else's place, alot of people do not switch a light on to go to the bathroom/toilet. How familiar is Reeva, with the layout of OP house, in particular the upstairs area? Had she stayed there often enough to know her way around without switching the lights on? Does anyone know?

All JMOO

MURDERER_SERVANT said:

Tha balcony light was on. Reeva is said to be on the balcony side of bed.
If he had stepped OUT ONTO the balcony, he would grab the fan and would see the bed while coming in /moving forward not backward/balcony light lighting the bedroom , his face toward the bed before closing the curtains. Improbable not seeing the bed.
Also he could not hear the alleged window noise from balcony . Improbable again. Fan was an instrument to be on the balcony but it wouldn't work.

In the testimony putting the fan in between the balcony door entrance, he is supposed to grab the fan between the curtains and he is moving inside
the alleged dark bedroom his back toward the bed and then put the fan.
There is no coming in from the lights on balcony with open curtains.

As for two fans thing ,imo he needed to create more time and movement inside busy with the fans and the jeans on the floor and covering the led light etc so as Reeva to go to the toilet inbetween and him allegedly not noticing.. :facepalm:

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Right? It would be funny if it weren't so tragic . Picturing him in his 'version' doing every gd thing in that bedroom with his back to the bed. how absurd .

steveml said:

Does anyone have a realistic view as to why OP included the additional fan in his statement?

There have been a few suggestions that the fan/s were part of a story to give OP a reason to have his back towards the bed, and to explain that this is why he wouldn't have seen Reeva leaving the bed.

If OP has fabricated a story to include the extra fan, then I see this additional fan as a hindrance rather than a benefit.

With specific regard to OP's statement, the extra fan would make little or no difference to the time he spent on the balcony, as OP had never mentioned how long he spent on the balcony in his statement, therefore this could not be disproved. The reason I think it would be more of a hindrance is that it if OP was bringing two fans in, there is probably more opportunity that he could have turned round and spotted Reeva, thus making his explanation more, not less, difficult.

Any thoughts on this?


*I'm not entirely sure why any fans needed to be included at all as the whole scenario could have been explained away without introducing these.
That's a separate issue though. It would be interesting to hear views on the additional fan.

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I think the two fans became part of his narrative either because he anticipated a problem with just one fan or because he thought mentioning that small detail (supported by photographic evidence) would make his version more believable. It fits the pattern.

You can see this pattern in his bail application. He knew there was a witness who'd heard something that night. So he takes what they could have heard: "Get out of my f$^$g house!" and "Call the police!" And makes it part of his version. Someone screamed? That was just Oscar.

But after the bail application here comes Burger, Johnson and the Stipps who swear they'd heard a woman's petrified screams. Oscar will now call experts to prove that he screams like a woman when he's afraid. But they heard a man and a woman calling for help one right after the other? Well his voice goes higher and lower when he's anxious.

Mugs on the bedside tables become a loving gesture to refute the possibility of an argument between him and his beloved. The jeans on the floor covers the LED light on the stereo. Because it has to be pitch dark. Reeva's phone in the bathroom? She had it with her when she went to the bathroom. Because it was pitch dark and she needed light. But because these things are reconstructed the penny drops during cross. Because even with your back turned you'll see light coming from behind you, especially in a pitch black room.

There are more examples. His legs were on the wrong side of the bed? He airs them. His t-shirt was also on the wrong side? Well, he's ashamed of his legs so he uses the t-shirt to cover the legs. But he wears the legs without shame in public? And so on.

How does Oscar explain firing four shots at a closed door? Double tap! Mangena says impossible because all the wounds would be in one place. No double tap!

During Oscar's cross he mentioned that he had examined the crime scene photographs (enlarged photos) in minute detail. He even said he had measured the time it took him to do things. Of course the problem with all this attention to detail is that he never saw the forest for the trees. He's stuck with all these individual short little stories he uses to explain various things. But they do not fit together to tell one believable story.

Pure speculation.

UndiscoveredTruth said:

How does OP changing his story from going out on the balcony to not going out on the balcony work in his favour though? I honestly can't see how that would help him at all. I really don't think he lied intentionally, I just think there may have been a misunderstanding on what he actually meant in his bail application. How strong was the light on Reeva's cell phone? If it's anything like mine and someone turned it on while I was focussed/concentrating on positioning/moving a fan that was running, the light would not distract me! Sorry, it just would not! By the time he had finished positioning the fan, Reeva could already have been in the bathroom. He could have moved even slightly away from the fan and he would have heard the noise from the window opening quite clearly--it was coming from the opposite direction, wasn't it? I think there would be quite a few people who wouldn't feel the need to switch a light on to go to the bathroom. Even as a guest at someone else's place, alot of people do not switch a light on to go to the bathroom/toilet. How familiar is Reeva, with the layout of OP house, in particular the upstairs area? Had she stayed there often enough to know her way around without switching the lights on? Does anyone know?

All JMOO

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Yeah, ok, but come on.......there is/was a girl just in his bed



......why the heck wouldn't /couldn't he have just asked ...."hey baba, did you hear that?"......

Oh no, not OP.....he goes gun a blazing......bang ....bang bang bang.


Ooops.......'Reeva ?' ....'..Reeva...where are ya hon ?'. Yeah right. :jail:

Lyra500 said:

Looking at this specific question:

How much evidence has OP presented that supports his life was threatened?

My personal view is that apart from his own claims there is no persuasive evidence to back up the assertion that he felt his life was threatened or indeed that he had an unusually extreme fear of crime. He has to at least try to show this because otherwise he has no justification for what he did - sadly i believe it is all a pretence and that he shot Reeva deliberately.

• No corroborated evidence for any of the claims of previous attacks - in particular the 'shooting' incident when he was in his car appears to be totally fabricated with not even a half hearted attempt to field anyone to corroborate it so far.
• No burglar bars at the wondows
• It seems unlikely that the alarm was even set
• No use of the panic alarm
• They slept with the balcony doors not only unlocked but actually open,
• OP lived on an extremely secure estate
• Broken downstairs window with no apparent concern about fixing it

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• The gated community his house is located in has 24 hour roving security patrol
• The alarm system in his house has outdoor motion detector beams
• He did not check/secure/remove workers' ladders prior to going to bed

OP claims he didn't feel safe, but he was safe... VERY safe. There is zero evidence to suggest he felt otherwise.

The only person who wasn't safe in that house that night was Reeva.

I use a 3D program for some artistic hobbies. After Dixon testified, I decided to test what he and OP and Jan Botha had testified as to what happened in the WC. I did this just for myself, so it is a bit rough. But it might be of interest to others. This program is capable of creating a 3D environment and of doing animation. I am not skilled enough to create the 3D environment, but I am able to do some rudimentary animation. I posed the figures using the photo of the reconstructed WC in the court room, so the perspective is a little off. I positioned the figures to the best of my recollection of testimony. They are not to scale, but I did my best to size them by eye. I posed the figures standing,then attempted to recreate the scenarios posed by the prosecution (PT) and the defense(DT). This is the DT recreation. I selected 3 positions to import into Photoshop. I did the coloring and such there and cut loose the magazine rack so that I could move it around. I hope we get to see the animation in court, but I have my doubts. They would have had to re-do everything to match OP's latest version. Lots of time and money involved there. I doubt the WC events would be in the animation in any event because I don't see how they can corroborate the DT version of things in there.


The blue figure is standing close to the door, slightly bent forward, arm bent and close to the hip /per Jan Botha and Dixon. Reeva has 4 seconds to live. I guess the idea is that she had just locked the door? OP said that he began shooting reflexively upon hearing the magazine rack moving, so I raised and extended her left leg. Since all of her weight was now on her right leg, and her right hip was shattered, she would have collapsed right there. That being impossible, I put her left leg back on the floor. In the Dt version, she starts to fall backwards, but is hit in the arm while still close to the door. Ok, she has to also spin about 45 degrees to fall against the the left end of the magazine rack which is in the middle of the wall, per OP. Before hitting the magazine rack, though, she has to fall to the right, into the path of the bullet trajectories, so that she can be shot through the right arm. Then she has to straighten back up so that she can fall onto the left side of the magazine rack, incurring the bruise to her inner right buttock, and then slide to the floor, bruising her back, just to the left of the spine on the way down. I couldn’t make any of this happen, but lets say that gravity and laws of motion were temporarily suspended and it did happen.

The Red figure depicts RS siting on the floor after hitting the left end of magazine rack, and after receiving the bruises to her right inner buttock and back. Her right leg and arm are now useless. Her left arm is raised in the air, ready to receive bullet hole B/ per Dixon. The problem here is that I can’t get her from that position Into the corner where OP said he found her unless she teleported over to the left around 18 inches. I guess it is at this point that the magazine rack is knocked into the right corner of the WC/ per OP. It is depicted in turquoise. Reeva has 2 seconds to live.

Green figure. So lets say that the magazine rack is in the right corner and that she did teleport into the left corner in a position in which she could be shot in the left hand and head,ending her life, as she fell over onto the toilet. Op has only one version of what her position was when he found her. He pointed on the court room monitor, showing where her legs were and where her torso was in the corner. He said her arm right was on the toilet and that her head was lying on her right shoulder “where the blood is”. He spoke in a rather calm voice as he pointed these things out on the photo of that small bloody room. He did not cry and he did not puke. I couldn’t get her torso onto the corner and have her head and legs positioned where OP said they were. Her legs are lying in the blood pool in my recreation. Now, If all of the preceding impossibilities had occurred, can someone please tell me how her useless right arm got up onto the toilet seat?

Conclusions:
1. Reeva was not standing in the position the DT proposed.

2. Reeva did not kick the magazine rack. There was no wood moving sound. Oscar lied
about this.

3.The magazine rack was never in the middle of the wall nor in the right corner. The police did not move it. Oscar lied about this.

4.The bruising to the buttock and back was not caused by the magazine rack.

5.Reeva was never sitting or lying on the floor. Oscar lied about this.

6.Reevas right arm was not on the toilet seat and her head was not on her shoulder. Oscar lied about even this.

7. Oscar lied about everything.


You know, when I did this recreation, I was involved in the process, and I didn’t really allow myself to think of the figures as Reeva Steenkamp. To Write this up, I had to really think about what he did to her. I have a headache and I am furious. How could he have done this?

MURDERER_SERVANT said:

Agreed. But he had no other choice. The bed is just in front of the balcony.
He no way could prove that he didn't see the empty bed coming in from the balcony cause inside would be brightly lit until he puts the fan wherever it is and goes back to close curtains and blinds stuff.

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Absolutely! This whole sequence of events in the bedroom is mind blowing. It is a classic example of somebody caught in a lie who has to layer and layer and layer to make their story fit.

1. His first statement said he was on the balcony moving a fan until they realized that the balcony light was found on. He can't be bringing a fan inside from a totally illuminated balcony. Of course he would be able to see Reeva in the bed at that point. Now he has to change that part. Instead of being on the balcony, he is now moving fans with his back to the bed. He was VERY specific with Nel... He never once turned around, his back was always to the bed regardless of what he was doing.

2. The amount of time it takes to move one fan from in front of the door a few feet to the right is seconds. Not nearly enough time. So he introduced fan # 2.

3. That's still not enough time for Reeva to get out of bed (on the other side of the bed), walk down that passageway, open the window, go in to the toilet room and pee. So.... he introduced the jeans and the LED light.

4. In his bail statement, this is when he hears the window open. Nel points out, aren't the fans on? How can you hear over the fans? Oscar has to add in that he heard the wood frame of the window slam against wood when it fully opened. Another totally new detail on the spur of the moment. But he had to add it to secure his stance that he heard the window and knew immediately what it was.

5. Also in the bail statement, Reeva was originally asleep. In his plea statement, she was awake and speaking to him. Why? Because Oscar has to KNOW that she was in bed before he got up to get the fans. Of course, everybody's first question when they hear about this case is "why didn't he ask Reeva if she heard the noise?" He says the reason he didn't ask her is because he had heard the wooden frame of the window slam open. He knew what it was, he didn't need confirmation from Reeva. Plus he just spoke to her in bed so he KNOWS that she is there. Perfect. Now it is a bit more plausible.

6. In the bail statement and in the plea statement, no mention of screaming at the top of his lungs for several minutes that night. On the stand, he adds in that he was screaming to the intruder "get the f out" and "Reeva call the police", both before and after the shots. He had to add this because of the ear witness testimony. All the screaming throughout the entire night had to be him.

7. Now to keep up with his story of screaming at the intruder as he's approaching the bathroom, he adds in that he heard the toilet door slam. In real life, a violent intruder would never hide in a small locked toilet room and literally corner themselves. But at least this way it makes a tiny bit more sense why the intruder would be in there... because Oscar was yelling at him. No mention of the slamming door whatsoever in the bail or the plea statements.

And it goes on and on and on.... every step of the way he had to change and add details in order for the story to work. With a genuine story, there would be no need to do this. This is not nerves or emotions or whatever you want to call it. It's OP very deliberately adding things to his story to get himself out of a jam. This has nothing to do with Nel's technique, this is all Oscar's own doing. He intentionally killed Reeva and he will literally do and say ANYTHING to get out of it now. There is simply no doubt left in me at all.

homegirl said:

View attachment 43072

I use a 3D program for some artistic hobbies. After Dixon testified, I decided to test what he and OP and Jan Botha had testified as to what happened in the WC. I did this just for myself, so it is a bit rough. But it might be of interest to others. This program is capable of creating a 3D environment and of doing animation. I am not skilled enough to create the 3D environment, but I am able to do some rudimentary animation. I posed the figures using the photo of the reconstructed WC in the court room, so the perspective is a little off. I positioned the figures to the best of my recollection of testimony. They are not to scale, but I did my best to size them by eye. I posed the figures standing,then attempted to recreate the scenarios posed by the prosecution (PT) and the defense(DT). This is the DT recreation. I selected 3 positions to import into Photoshop. I did the coloring and such there and cut loose the magazine rack so that I could move it around. I hope we get to see the animation in court, but I have my doubts. They would have had to re-do everything to match OP's latest version. Lots of time and money involved there. I doubt the WC events would be in the animation in any event because I don't see how they can corroborate the DT version of things in there.


The blue figure is standing close to the door, slightly bent forward, arm bent and close to the hip /per Jan Botha and Dixon. Reeva has 4 seconds to live. I guess the idea is that she had just locked the door? OP said that he began shooting reflexively upon hearing the magazine rack moving, so I raised and extended her left leg. Since all of her weight was now on her right leg, and her right hip was shattered, she would have collapsed right there. That being impossible, I put her left leg back on the floor. In the Dt version, she starts to fall backwards, but is hit in the arm while still close to the door. Ok, she has to also spin about 45 degrees to fall against the the left end of the magazine rack which is in the middle of the wall, per OP. Before hitting the magazine rack, though, she has to fall to the right, into the path of the bullet trajectories, so that she can be shot through the right arm. Then she has to straighten back up so that she can fall onto the left side of the magazine rack, incurring the bruise to her inner right buttock, and then slide to the floor, bruising her back, just to the left of the spine on the way down. I couldn’t make any of this happen, but lets say that gravity and laws of motion were temporarily suspended and it did happen.

The Red figure depicts RS siting on the floor after hitting the left end of magazine rack, and after receiving the bruises to her right inner buttock and back. Her right leg and arm are now useless. Her left arm is raised in the air, ready to receive bullet hole B/ per Dixon. The problem here is that I can’t get her from that position Into the corner where OP said he found her unless she teleported over to the left around 18 inches. I guess it is at this point that the magazine rack is knocked into the right corner of the WC/ per OP. It is depicted in turquoise. Reeva has 2 seconds to live.

Green figure. So lets say that the magazine rack is in the right corner and that she did teleport into the left corner in a position in which she could be shot in the left hand and head,ending her life, as she fell over onto the toilet. Op has only one version of what her position was when he found her. He pointed on the court room monitor, showing where her legs were and where her torso was in the corner. He said her arm right was on the toilet and that her head was lying on her right shoulder “where the blood is”. He spoke in a rather calm voice as he pointed these things out on the photo of that small bloody room. He did not cry and he did not puke. I couldn’t get her torso onto the corner and have her head and legs positioned where OP said they were. Her legs are lying in the blood pool in my recreation. Now, If all of the preceding impossibilities had occurred, can someone please tell me how her useless right arm got up onto the toilet seat?

Conclusions:
1. Reeva was not standing in the position the DT proposed.

2. Reeva did not kick the magazine rack. There was no wood moving sound. Oscar lied
about this.

3.The magazine rack was never in the middle of the wall nor in the right corner. The police did not move it. Oscar lied about this.

4.The bruising to the buttock and back was not caused by the magazine rack.

5.Reeva was never sitting or lying on the floor. Oscar lied about this.

6.Reevas right arm was not on the toilet seat and her head was not on her shoulder. Oscar lied about even this.

7. Oscar lied about everything.


You know, when I did this recreation, I was involved in the process, and I didn’t really allow myself to think of the figures as Reeva Steenkamp. To Write this up, I had to really think about what he did to her. I have a headache and I am furious. How could he have done this?

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Woww .. very good work..

what struck me is the undisturbed blood pool where
her legs are in her final position.. I remember sth as op told that at some point he sat on the toilet seat to pick up and pull her out thus smearing the blood on the left side of the seat but i just can't see why he would need to do that from yr images ? I have to go and check again..

BIB2 Good question.. Maybe our medical experts would answer that..whether she could move her severly injured arm up the seat or was it paralysed ?

patCee said:

Is this a photo of the ambient light you mention, at the end of the corridor. It looks as though the light is coming from the bathroom window around the corner.

Sorry I'm not sure how to post the picture correctly but it's on juror13's blog page, Entrance to the bathroom. The bath tub can be seen at the top of the photo. There was blood spatter found on the floor and wall, a bullet casing on the left side of the entrance and wood splinters from the toilet room door. is the title of the photo. Its at the end of her page where she lists the trial photos, days 9 & 10, Rensberg
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

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This photo below depicts the end of the corridor. They have also referred to it as the "passage" during trial. There would be some ambient light that hits this spot from the bathroom window around the corner.

MURDERER_SERVANT said:

Woww .. very good work..

what struck me is the undisturbed blood pool where
her legs are in her final position.. I remember sth as op told that at some point he sat on the toilet seat to pick up and pull her out thus smearing the blood on the left side of the seat but i just can't see why he would need to do that from yr images ? I have to go and check again..

BIB2 Good question.. Maybe our medical experts would answer that..whether she could move her severly injured arm up the seat or was it paralysed ?

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I remember reading from a few people on here that they thought OP said he sat ON the toilet seat to move her, but I don't believe he did. This is what I got after I listened to the testimony a few times:




Oscar crouched down over Reeva and put his left arm underneath her right arm and checked to see if she was breathing or had a pulse. He didn’t feel that she did so he pulled her on top of him. At that point he heard her breathing so he immediately tried to pick her up and get her out.

He wasn’t able to pick her up so he scuffled around with his legs which he theorizes is how the magazine rack got moved, he may have kicked it. At this point he was seated against the left hand part of the door frame inside the toilet room with Reeva’s weight on top of him. He managed to turn her around and get her on the ground.

He placed her half way between the toilet room and the frame. (this is presumably where there is a pool of blood seen just outside the toilet door.)

He was trying to pick her up but he couldn’t. He then moved her in to the bathroom.





If you discover that I have this wrong let me know and I can go back and correct it. Thanks

P.S. No way did he scuffle around that toilet room. The blood pool and droplets do not indicate any struggle inside that room. I believe he walked in, lifted her head off the bowl and got her out.

MURDERER_SERVANT said:

Woww .. very good work..

what struck me is the undisturbed blood pool where
her legs are in her final position.. I remember sth as op told that at some point he sat on the toilet seat to pick up and pull her out thus smearing the blood on the left side of the seat but i just can't see why he would need to do that from yr images ? I have to go and check again..

BIB2 Good question.. Maybe our medical experts would answer that..whether she could move her severly injured arm up the seat or was it paralysed ?

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BBM

OP's story had her arm up on the bowl and her head resting on her right shoulder.

But Mangena's sequence of events has her head on the toilet bowl, her right arm at her right side, causing the large blood pool next to the toilet and her lower body was on top of the magazine rack.

Her arm was completely dysfunctional at this point so I don't see how it would be possible that it would be up on the toilet seat.

The DT sent two of their own expert witnesses to check the light levels in the bedroom without a Lux meter. Why would they do that?

The DT never told two of their own expert witnesses that the balcony light was on that evening. Why would they do that?

Is the entire DT corrupt or just Counsel?

james83 said:

I wonder of all the times a woman is shot dead by her partner, how many times is it genuinely an accident?, and therefore what are the actual odd's Oscar is telling the truth before you even get to the total joke that is his story?.

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I'd started pondering a similar thing. What is the compound probability of all the circumstances of the night, combined with OPs chain of events that could lead to him unknowingly shooting RS in the toilet?

Incident occurred whilst builders/decorators were working on property leaving ladders unsecured: maybe 3 or 4 weeks every four years according to when he said painting was last done: 1/52

Incident occurred on valentines night, where there is a statistical rise in domestic violence: ~13% on some uk figures I looked at, so 1/365 - how unlucky

That he was being 'burgled' on a night when 'Reeva' was staying over, where he had to 'protect' her? 3/7

That he could be 'burgled' on a night when he wasn't abroad competing or promoting something: figuring on 60 days abroad a year: 305/360

Then compound with chances (hard to calculate without a 3d renderering of events) that during those seconds, minutes, Reeva wasn't in his peripheral vision at some point to alert him.

Wonder if the PT will render up a model to determine the plausibility of the sequence and his potential peripheral vision at each point?

lisasalinger said:

This photo below depicts the end of the corridor. They have also referred to it as the "passage" during trial. There would be some ambient light that hits this spot from the bathroom window around the corner.

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Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is where OP admitted to Nel under crossx that there would at night have been enough ambient light for him to have seen Reeva's silhouette. All the more reason for him to add an additional fan to move.

lisasalinger said:

I remember reading from a few people on here that they thought OP said he sat ON the toilet seat to move her, but I don't believe he did. This is what I got after I listened to the testimony a few times:




Oscar crouched down over Reeva and put his left arm underneath her right arm and checked to see if she was breathing or had a pulse. He didn’t feel that she did so he pulled her on top of him. At that point he heard her breathing so he immediately tried to pick her up and get her out.

He wasn’t able to pick her up so he scuffled around with his legs which he theorizes is how the magazine rack got moved, he may have kicked it. At this point he was seated against the left hand part of the door frame inside the toilet room with Reeva’s weight on top of him. He managed to turn her around and get her on the ground.

He placed her half way between the toilet room and the frame. (this is presumably where there is a pool of blood seen just outside the toilet door.)

He was trying to pick her up but he couldn’t. He then moved her in to the bathroom.





If you discover that I have this wrong let me know and I can go back and correct it. Thanks

P.S. No way did he scuffle around that toilet room. The blood pool and droplets do not indicate any struggle inside that room. I believe he walked in, lifted her head off the bowl and got her out.

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I still do not understand why there was no blood on the bottom of his socks. I don't think at any time he has said he had his shoes on.

lisasalinger said:

BBM

OP's story had her arm up on the bowl and her head resting on her right shoulder.

But Mangena's sequence of events has her head on the toilet bowl, her right arm at her right side, causing the large blood pool next to the toilet and her lower body was on top of the magazine rack.

Her arm was completely dysfunctional at this point so I don't see how it would be possible that it would be up on the toilet seat.

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The right edge of the bowl is without blood as though her arm was along there, you can see a line of blood from front to back a few cm. in from the edge. I thought her right arm was laying along that edge. Does that sound right?