Trial Discussion Thread #43 - 14.06.30 Day 33

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AJ_DS said:
......

I think Roux would benefit from a 30-day stay at Weskoppies Psychiatric Hospital… or he should stop smoking the ganja ! :D
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Yep, the "respectful" discussion rolls on. :drumroll:
 
Marfa Lights said:
Hope4, please tell me what points Lin made that you found to be helpful-- I was really looking forward to someone who could provide relevant and accurate acoustical test results, but it sounded like Lin was reading basic concepts from a textbook, and like another poster, I started having flashbacks to graduate student math instructors that I could not understand. I would be grateful if you could hit on a few high points.
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Sorry but helpful to what... or who?

I think you must mean "helpful" to the Judge and her assistants who for their considerations and weighing ups need to understand not only how sounds travel, e.g. distance, conditions, loss, gain, etc. etc. but also how we hear and how our brains interpret sounds, and understand that not always what we see or hear is what it seems. And more especially since the eyewitnesses along with the time of the bangs are imo the most important evidence in this trial, so you would expect that either the defence or the prosecution would have an expert put forward at least some basic theory or "concepts" so as the Judge and assessors can enter into considerations with a better understanding of what they should look for and expect while trying to disentangle the different screams and crying witnesses heard. And Masipa was extremely attentive and taking notes so surely you would agree that even if Lin's testimony was only useful to her, it should suffice for all of us to know that the clearer the understanding justice will always have a better chance.

And Nel hasn't even carried out the cross so perhaps your moment of "enlightenment" will come then as Lin will then not be able to just read his report but will have to answer direct and compromising questions that if Nel does his job should give you more insight.
 
Great to see photos with the room plans. No idea if it's the State's responsibility to produce it but I wouldn't put it past someone on Oscar's side to have very recently have made sure it now can't be found. (Of course we can't see the terminal end of the extension cord but it all comes back to Masipa judging probabilities doesn't it - cord more than likely quite short.
In any case, they're just trying to destroy ONE of the many inconsistencies Nel spotted in OP's account. It's hardly a thrusting, positive defence. Sure it sounds good at face value - ooh police tampering again, missing evidence - but as AJDS has pointed out with his post above - it falls flat anyway. Those assessors are going to spot that tonight when they review.

I read a precis on SA Times which said Defence had had a better day today. If this is all DT can come up with over 30 day break it's not looking strong.

Roux is definitely going to return to that MH report - there's clearly other findings in there- he almost tried to bluff Masipa that he had only got it Monday and he doesn't want to show his hand naturally. (Good, I really want to hear more about that report seeing as we've all spent months on amateur psychology!)

Off to listen to sound expert.
 
jay-jay said:
~snipped for brevity and bbm ~

Exactly!

.. and the rest of your post upthread is absolutely excellent and completely spot on! I really hope that Judge Masipa is clued up to all of this, I'm starting to have my doubts because she should NOT have been demanding to have that extension lead earlier today.
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Do you consider yourself more knowledgeable than the judge about what is appropriate, legal or relevant? :O
 
AJ_DS said:
Addendum to Defence tactics

Oscar Pistorius met with Dr. Gerhard Versveld the orthopedic surgeon on 7 May 2014… that's the same day of his second interview with Dr. Vorster… the Holiday for elections in SA… the Holliday Roux said in open Court he was not aware of !!!!

How can Roux say he did not know 7 May 2014 was a Holiday when Oscar Pistorius had 2 meetings with 2 experts scheduled that very day ?!?

Oscar has to be present in Court when Court is in session… so without the Holiday Oscar could not meet with Dr. Versveld or Dr. Vorster !!

… and without the 2-week adjournment, Roux would not have been able to call upon 3 witnesses :

1- Ingrid van Schalkwyk, social worker
2- Dr Merryll Vorster, forensic psychiatrist
3- Dr. Gerhard Versvel, orthopedic surgeon

… talk about a disorganized, last minute and "let's try a bunch of different stuff and see if anything sticks" Defence strategy !! :D
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Whilst I agree with you, I don't think it has anything to do with Roux. In one of my early posts, I made reference to the notion that Roux keeps having the rug pulled from under him by whoever is running this trial for Pistorius.

Essentially, he has had to react to what Pistorius has said on the stand, which even though they must have rehearsed it, would not be in Roux's plan. Add to that he has been hamstrung by the fact that he has had to select from witnesses who have proved to not match up to the PT.

A couple of examples would be an anaesthetist instead of the pathologist (the pathologist would have had to confirm when Reeva ate last) and OP himself on the ammunition charge, instead of OP's Father who could have ended that charge at a stroke.

In short, he has had to be as creative as possible to accommodate some really tricky circumstances. The less than perfect witnesses are also the result of the really credible ones, wanting absolutely nothing to do with OP.
 
G.bng said:
And why would that be, i.e. why would it make his whole testimony feel "pointless"? That different people hear and interpret sounds differently is a known fact, just as people and eyewitnesses see scenes differently. That is how it is.
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I'll go along with Judge Greenland, this whole accoustic testimony is "desperate tactics", that's good enough for me.
The No Gad at time of incident is the final nail in the coffin anyhow.
 
Hoosen_Fenger said:
Whilst I agree with you, I don't think it has anything to do with Roux. In one of my early posts, I made reference to the notion that Roux keeps having the rug pulled from under him by whoever is running this trial for Pistorius.

Essentially, he has had to react to what Pistorius has said on the stand, which even though they must have rehearsed it, would not be in Roux's plan. Add to that he has been hamstrung by the fact that he has had to select from witnesses who have proved to not match up to the PT.

A couple of examples would be an anaesthetist instead of the pathologist (the pathologist would have had to confirm when Reeva ate last) and OP himself on the ammunition charge, instead of OP's Father who could have ended that charge at a stroke.

In short, he has had to be as creative as possible to accommodate some really tricky circumstances. The less than perfect witnesses are also the result of the really credible ones, wanting absolutely nothing to do with OP.
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I also get the distinct impression that Roux is not captain of the ship… there is a puppeteer behind the scene that is animating the puppet… which makes the Defence look so bad and disorganized.

I suspect the puppeteer to be Oscar himself… he believes himself to be so smart…smatter than everybody… and it's his money… Roux is basically just along for the OP funded fun-ride.
 
Hoosen_Fenger said:
Whilst I agree with you, I don't think it has anything to do with Roux. In one of my early posts, I made reference to the notion that Roux keeps having the rug pulled from under him by whoever is running this trial for Pistorius.
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Just in relation to how difficult it was for Roux.- (Dagga was a joke. Sorry I hate the suffix LOL) - here's something I read recently which made me more informed - ie Roux's rep wont necessarily be damaged by this case.

"Some advocates in criminal law are of a similar it's-the-game-not-the-result disposition; you can only work with the material you are handed, after all. And if the material includes an accused determined to make a hash of things, then there are still points to be awarded for style....."

So as Oscar Pistorius left the witness box this week, with his direct participation in his trial for the killing of Reeva Steenkamp, criminal defence advocates were not critical of Barry Roux, his approach in the matter, or what they considered his shrinking odds of ultimate success.
"Pistorius, the advocates said, was not an ideal accused to work with, but nor was he awful enough to make for a story that would be still be retold decades from now. And they, at least, would be commiserating with – rather than blaming – Roux should the judgment not go his way."

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-04-16-oscar-pistorius-when-accused-go-bad
 
james83 said:
I'll go along with Judge Greenland, this whole accoustic testimony is "desperate tactics", that's good enough for me.
The No Gad at time of incident is the final nail in the coffin anyhow.
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Indeed.

No GAD also means no hypervigilence… no fear-stricken panic, no unreasonable actions or reactions made reasonable, etc...

The Defence is full of gaping holes… when Roux tries to plug one up, it starts leaking from another that he had plugged earlier.

That is what one would expect from a fabricated version of events… many things won't match with the forensic evidence, with witness testimony, or hopelessly contradict themselves.
 
james83 said:
I'll go along with Judge Greenland, this whole accoustic testimony is "desperate tactics", that's good enough for me.
The No Gad at time of incident is the final nail in the coffin anyhow.
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BBM - it sure is! Not that many of us thought he would be diagnosed with it anyway. It would be nigh on impossible to establish someone's state of mind from 14 months ago. Any anxiety he was suffering seemed to stem from the fact he was looking at potential life in :jail:
 
AJ_DS said:
Indeed.

No GAD also means no hypervigilence… no fear-stricken panic, no unreasonable actions or reactions made reasonable, etc...

The Defence is full of gaping holes… when Roux tries to plug one up, it starts leaking from another that he had plugged earlier.

That is what one would expect from a fabricated version of events… many things won't match with the forensic evidence, with witness testimony, or hopelessly contradict themselves.
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What he suffers from is an extremely short fuse.

Trying to make out he was terrified of intruders while happily snoozing away with his balcony doors open is just ridiculous.
 
AJ_DS said:
1. State had absolutely NO foreseeable reason or ANY possible way of knowing that the fan would eventually become relevant to the murder case… much less the extension cord to which the fan was connected.

2. State conducted their forensic investigations between 14 and 17 February 2013… the ONLY statement they had to go on from Oscar Pistorius was that he shot Reeva in the toilet cubicle thinking she was intruder.

3. All items seized by the State were inventoried… the extension cord does NOT appear in said inventory which was divulged to the Defence during discovery.

4. State released the house to the Defence on 17 February 2013.

5. The FIRST time the fan was even mentioned was in a prologue to the events during the bail application between 19 and 23 February 2013.

6. The FIRST time the fan was put forth as an integral part of Oscar's version of events was during Oscar's testimony in chief between 7 and 9 April 2014.

7. The FIRST time the physical impossibility of the fan's location was put forth was during Oscar's cross-examination between 9 and 15 April 2014.

8. Oscar Pistorius sold and vacated his house in May 2014.

9. The FIRST time Defence requested the State to produce the extension cord because it was important to their case was on 6 June 2014.

10. Roux alleges that the State must have seized the extension cord because on 14 February 2013 it was photographed next to the bed and on 15 February 2013 it was no longer next to the bed… Police investigators cannot and do not ever inventory every single item contained within a house.

11. I suspect the hair clipper that was next to the bed was also moved… Roux could request the State to produce it as well. This fallacious reasoning and underhanded tactic could be applied to any and all items that were moved but never seized… Ridiculous !

12. Roux alleges the extension cord is 5 meters in length… absolutely LUDICROUS… One can clearly see on the photographs without any possible doubt that the extension cord cannot even reach the length of the bed… the longest standard bed available is 2.13 meters long and the extension cord stretches approximately 2/3 of the bed's length : this means that the extension cord is about 1.5 meters in length… Roux would have the Court believe that the extension cord is more than 3 times longer than its actual length !!!

Roux is obviously desperate : not having been able to deliver a remotely plausible Defence, he is attempting to confuse the Court on all fronts.

- Although the extension cord was missing from the house and it did not appear in the inventory, why did the Defence not inquire on its whereabout on 17 February 2013 ?

- Although the extension cord was relevant ONLY to Oscar's version of events, why did the Defence wait 16 months to inquire on its whereabout ?

- Although the extension cord was of great importance for Oscar's credibility, why did the Defence wait 2 months after Oscar finished his testimony to inquire on its whereabout ?

The State had control of the contents of the house for 3.5 days and had no way of knowing the extension would be relevant until 14 months later, when Oscar Pistorius testified.

Oscar Pistorius had control of the contents of his house for about 478 days… he knew the fan was important and that the length of the extension cord contradicted his version of events… it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened with that extension cord !!
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Great timeline, I hope the PT see this as well as review the excellent notes lisasalinger made in her blog(especially the last three paragraphs) at:
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/

It was a trick by the Defense
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james83 said:
I'll go along with Judge Greenland, this whole accoustic testimony is "desperate tactics", that's good enough for me.
The No Gad at time of incident is the final nail in the coffin anyhow.
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any link to Judge Greenland's comments ?
 
Can else say what can come from the report from Westkoppies?

I read that a treasure trove of character flaws could now be added to the states case and that the committal was a disaster for OP.

It would be great to hear more about that side of things instead of BS DB's and obviously short power cords.

_________________________________________________________________

Channel 4 News speaks to one of South Africa's leading lawyers, Renier Spies, about how Mental health assessment outcome will affect the trial.

"I'm not alone when I say he was a terrible witness," Mr Spies told Channel 4 News. "Every aspect can be criticised: there were numerous material contradictions, I'm sure Gerrie Nel will criticise his demeanour and inherent improbabilities in his evidence."

But if independent assessors decide Pistorius does not have GAD, all of the efforts by the state to provide explanations for his actions can no longer be considered by the trial.

As a result, getting the court to refer him for independent assessment was a "stroke of genius" by prosecutors, said Mr Spies. "In a nutshell, it is the one thing that can destroy the defence case completely... They (prosecutors) can argue that at no stage relevant to any allegations was there anything wrong with him, on a psychological basis," Mr Spies told Channel 4 News.

"This would mean there are no excuses any more. And it would certainly empower the court to make the finding that Pistorius endeavoured to mislead everyone from the start... That is going to change the game quite drastically."

________________________________________________________________

Thanks cottonweaver for that article.
 
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