Blue Fibers

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Solace

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SuperDave:

Here is the post from Rashomon regarding the blue fibers.

But I'll give A&E the benefit of the doubt and try again, for all I want to find out is the original source which says that fibers from John's black shirt he wore to the Whites' Christmas party were found in very incriminating locations: in JB's underpants, and maybe even in her genital area itself.
8-29-00 John Ramsey videotaped interview, Source: http://www.acandyrose.com/atl2000-interviews-john-ramsey.txt


7 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I've got some
8 questions, Mr. Ramsey, that deal with fiber
9 evidence, and this is probably going to be
10 questions that your lawyer is going to advise
11 you not to answer, but I would like to pose
12 them to you.
...
21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
24 source is the collared black shirt that you
25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
2 A. . I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.

I suppose that in line 23 this was a typo, and it should read 'fibers' and not 'hairs', for the question was about fiber evidence.



From the Bonita papers (emphasis mine):

"During the vaginal examination, small dark colored fibers were found on JonBenet's external labia. A faint area of purple discoloration was noted on the right labia major. Vascular congestion was found along the inner membrane of the vaginal vault, and red water fluid, appearing to be blood, was present. The hymeneal opening had a mild abrasion, and the hymen appeared to have been torn. Dr. Meyer noted that the trauma to JonBenet's vaginal area was consistent with digital, rather than penile penetration. He was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area. Dr. Meyer stated that it appeared that JonBenet's pubic area may have been cleaned, or at least wiped by someone using a towel or piece of clothing. Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area."

Are those 'small dark colored fibers' the same as the 'dark blue fibers' consistent with a cotton towel?
If yes, where does John Ramsey's black shirt come in, the fibers of which were allegedly found in JB's genital area too?

--
Edited by rashomon at 09/20/2006 12:47 PM
 
I also wonder about the alleged blue robe of JR's that was found.Could some of the fibers be from that as well?I can't find anything on it rightoffhand,I just remember reading about it somewhere (I think on this forum) in the past.
I ask because,in DOI,both PR and JR make a point of saying that JR was in his underwear.(Perhaps to point out that he hadn't been wearing a robe that might have been found and used to wipe JB down with).I was wondering if it could have been a terrycloth robe,which might make it harder to determine if it was actually from robe or a towel.I've seen robes and towels,both made of the same material and same color, sold together as sets and I was j/w if that might have been the case there.
 
JMO8778 said:
I also wonder about the alleged blue robe of JR's that was found.Could some of the fibers be from that as well?I can't find anything on it rightoffhand,I just remember reading about it somewhere (I think on this forum) in the past.
I ask because,in DOI,both PR and JR make a point of saying that JR was in his underwear.(Perhaps to point out that he hadn't been wearing a robe that might have been found and used to wipe JB down with).I was wondering if it could have been a terrycloth robe,which might make it harder to determine if it was actually from robe or a towel.I've seen robes and towels,both made of the same material and same color, sold together as sets and I was j/w if that might have been the case there.
Click to expand...
I think UKGuy said it was found in the den and I seem to remember reading the robe was found on the floor in the den.
 
I wonder if JR was distancing himself from the shirt he wore the prior night instead.
 
I believe the black shirt was wool, not cotton, right?

Location of the bathrobe on the floor of the den is unusual, though. It may have been left on a chair, obviously. Somehow, I don't know exactly why, this reminds me of the ignored duffle bag found in the crawl space.
 
Eagle1 said:
I believe the black shirt was wool, not cotton, right?

Location of the bathrobe on the floor of the den is unusual, though. It may have been left on a chair, obviously. Somehow, I don't know exactly why, this reminds me of the ignored duffle bag found in the crawl space.
Click to expand...
JR said that he couldn't remember which shirt he wore that night so he sent the BPD 2 black shirts. I remember reading somewhere that JR's robe was a dark blue terrycloth.
 
why there are no pictures from Christmas Day? We can't see what the R's are wearing....

ETA:

2 A. Well, I think that's what we did,
3 but I don't, I mean, I don't remember
4 exactly the logic. I know that we were
5 asked about shoes, and the picture didn't
6 even show shoes, so I couldn't remember what
7 shoes we had on. So was it to send all my
8 shoes or one hundred percent sure.

What picture would that be?
 
Det. Thomas spoke of looking at pictures from the White's party in his book (which have never been made public.) Maybe that's it?
 
In the 1st post on this thread, near the bottom, in the quote from the Bonita papers, it says that "Dr. Meyer was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area."

??? Hasn't it been said numerous times that ther WAS evidence of prior sexual abuse?

There's so much info in this case that seems in direct opposition of itself. Can someone clarify?
 
julianne said:
In the 1st post on this thread, near the bottom, in the quote from the Bonita papers, it says that "Dr. Meyer was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area."

??? Hasn't it been said numerous times that ther WAS evidence of prior sexual abuse?

There's so much info in this case that seems in direct opposition of itself. Can someone clarify?
Click to expand...
Julianne,

Dr. Meyer performed the autopsy; he did not state in the autopsy that there was prior sexual abuse (and anyone else feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong), but I believed HE FELT there was and said so to Det. Arndt.

Other forensics who have studied the autopsy report, such as Dr. Cyril Wecht, believe from studying it that there was prior sexual abuse. Actually, he explains it and refers the reader to the report and then explains why he feels that way. And truthfully, you walk away believing him.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
Det. Thomas spoke of looking at pictures from the White's party in his book (which have never been made public.) Maybe that's it?
Click to expand...


Thanks, Nuisanceposter. This case has too many parts for a casual reader to keep up with.
 
Much appreciated, Solace!

In the 1st post on this thread, near the bottom, in the quote from the Bonita papers, it says that "Dr. Meyer was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area."

??? Hasn't it been said numerous times that ther WAS evidence of prior sexual abuse?

There's so much info in this case that seems in direct opposition of itself. Can someone clarify?
Click to expand...

To wit:

Dr. Meyer performed the autopsy; he did not state in the autopsy that there was prior sexual abuse (and anyone else feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong), but I believed HE FELT there was and said so to Det. Arndt.
Click to expand...

Yeah, he just wasn't willing to say so in the public document. But Drs. McCann, Rau, Monteleone, Jones and Wright were willing to stipulate to it, julianne. That's not nothing, to quote Wendy Murphy :blushing: on that very subject.
 
SuperDave said:
Much appreciated, Solace!

To wit:

Yeah, he just wasn't willing to say so in the public document. But Drs. McCann, Rau, Monteleone, Jones and Wright were willing to stipulate to it, julianne. That's not nothing, to quote Wendy Murphy :blushing: on that very subject.
Click to expand...
So, this leads me to believe that John was abusing her. Unless, she was using a douche on JB, is that possible? Here I go again.

I think it was sexual abuse and John is involved.

You know there is more evidence here than there was with Scott Peterson. I am reading the transcript re the fibers and if ever there was someone with an attitude it is John. And I realize that some would say, well Levin is saying that the fibers match his shirt, but he has an overall attitude of bs. Anywhere he can bs, he does. He in no way, no way, sounds like a man who is distraught over his daughter and wants to find the killer.

I saw Marc Klass the other day and he is JUST NOW starting to look "regular" whatever that is. Before he looked out of his mind with grief. His eyes would dart all over the place, he was in bad shape.

Mr. Ramsey has never looked like that, never.
 
Solace said:
Julianne,

Dr. Meyer performed the autopsy; he did not state in the autopsy that there was prior sexual abuse (and anyone else feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong), but I believed HE FELT there was and said so to Det. Arndt.

Other forensics who have studied the autopsy report, such as Dr. Cyril Wecht, believe from studying it that there was prior sexual abuse. Actually, he explains it and refers the reader to the report and then explains why he feels that way. And truthfully, you walk away believing him.
Click to expand...


Solace,

He never stated there was prior abuse. His words to Detective Linda Arndt were JonBenet "had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina"

or from the January 30th, 1997 Search Warrant
Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina.
Click to expand...

Also
Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.
Click to expand...

Coroner Meyer's Autopsy states:
Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen.
Click to expand...

Coroner Meyer offered no opinion as to chronic sexual contact, he knew what he was doing, also its possible some of the detail was meant to to be redacted permanently?

But the devil is in the detail, since Coroner Meyer listed the birefringent foreign material and verbally opined to Detective Linda Arndt that what he was looking at was consistent with digital penetration then its safe to assume he was not contradicting himself, that is, penetration via the paintbrush handle is not the same as digital penetration? I doubt he could deduce at this point that the birefringent foreign material had arrived via accidental transfer?

Along with other information such as the unnatural 1-cm by 1-cm enlargement of JonBenet's hymen, and the chronic inflammation of the vaginal tract, Coroner Meyer probably assumed he was looking at a victim with a history of prolonged sexual contact?

A reading of the January 30, 1997 Search Warrant makes it explicit that the BPD assumed they had an incest case on their hands and they were looking for child *advertiser censored* to back this up.

They were convinced about this, so much so, they have also have twice searched the Ramseys' summer home in Charlevoix, Michigan. The documents associated with those searches have been sealed indefinitely.

Also in other interview transcripts references are made to photographs taken of JonBenet down in the basement or a collection of photographs found in the basement. Its likely someone had a personal collection of JonBenet photographs, this may have included provocative pageant snaps etc.

So pedophilia and incest were high on the agenda at this point in time!
 
UKGuy said:
Solace,

He never stated there was prior abuse. His words to Detective Linda Arndt were JonBenet "had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina"

or from the January 30th, 1997 Search Warrant


Also


Coroner Meyer's Autopsy states:


Coroner Meyer offered no opinion as to chronic sexual contact, he knew what he was doing, also its possible some of the detail was meant to to be redacted permanently?

But the devil is in the detail, since Coroner Meyer listed the birefringent foreign material and verbally opined to Detective Linda Arndt that what he was looking at was consistent with digital penetration then its safe to assume he was not contradicting himself, that is, penetration via the paintbrush handle is not the same as digital penetration? I doubt he could deduce at this point that the birefringent foreign material had arrived via accidental transfer?

Along with other information such as the unnatural 1-cm by 1-cm enlargement of JonBenet's hymen, and the chronic inflammation of the vaginal tract, Coroner Meyer probably assumed he was looking at a victim with a history of prolonged sexual contact?

A reading of the January 30, 1997 Search Warrant makes it explicit that the BPD assumed they had an incest case on their hands and they were looking for child *advertiser censored* to back this up.

They were convinced about this, so much so, they have also have twice searched the Ramseys' summer home in Charlevoix, Michigan. The documents associated with those searches have been sealed indefinitely.

Also in other interview transcripts references are made to photographs taken of JonBenet down in the basement or a collection of photographs found in the basement. Its likely someone had a personal collection of JonBenet photographs, this may have included provocative pageant snaps etc.

So pedophilia and incest were high on the agenda at this point in time!
Click to expand...
UK,

I know in the transacripts they ask Patsy if photos were ever taken of JonBenet in the basement, and she says "no, did you find some". But they never really go into it anymore. Do you know more about that?
 
Solace said:
UK,

I know in the transacripts they ask Patsy if photos were ever taken of JonBenet in the basement, and she says "no, did you find some". But they never really go into it anymore. Do you know more about that?
Click to expand...

Solace,

If you do a thread search you will find a topic dedicated to the photographs which also includes the missing xmas video etc.

imo a collection of JonBenet photographs had been discovered possibly in the basement, this was not made clear? If they were you could speculate they were dumped there after her death, since the subject matter contained therein and and the nature of her death would make life difficult for the collections owner?

Else if the collection had been found elsewhere in the house, but contained pictures of JonBenet in the basement, then considering she was relocated there, this is important.

Without it being stated explicitly this line of questioning was the pedophile avenue, since it fits the standard profile, and identifying the owner would give the BPD leverage.



.
 
UKGuy said:
Solace,

If you do a thread search you will find a topic dedicated to the photographs which also includes the missing xmas video etc.

imo a collection of JonBenet photographs had been discovered possibly in the basement, this was not made clear? If they were you could speculate they were dumped there after her death, since the subject matter contained therein and and the nature of her death would make life difficult for the collections owner?

Else if the collection had been found elsewhere in the house, but contained pictures of JonBenet in the basement, then considering she was relocated there, this is important.

Without it being stated explicitly this line of questioning was the pedophile avenue, since it fits the standard profile, and identifying the owner would give the BPD leverage.
Click to expand...

Another quote from UKGuy, earlier post:
"A reading of the January 30, 1997 Search Warrant makes it explicit that the BPD assumed they had an incest case on their hands and they were looking for child *advertiser censored* to back this up.

They were convinced about this, so much so, they have also have twice searched the Ramseys' summer home in Charlevoix, Michigan. The documents associated with those searches have been sealed indefinitely."

Q. Why were the documents about the search sealed indefinitely? Calls for speculation, I know.

Re Dark Blue Cotton Fibers, wasn't there a cloth in JR's golf bag that would fit this description, and be "consistent with" the fibers on the body, as was also his bathrobe?

The two shirts he submitted were both black? One was wool. So the fibers couldn't have come from it if they're right that they were cotton. Could they be wrong about that?

Douches are mentioned in another thread also, that I just came from, something about abuse. Was she maybe trying to prevent infections? Shocking, all right, but wouldn't explain "birefringement" material. Hope I spelled that close enough that you get the meaning. That poor kid!
 
Solace said:
SuperDave:

Here is the post from Rashomon regarding the blue fibers.

But I'll give A&E the benefit of the doubt and try again, for all I want to find out is the original source which says that fibers from John's black shirt he wore to the Whites' Christmas party were found in very incriminating locations: in JB's underpants, and maybe even in her genital area itself.
8-29-00 John Ramsey videotaped interview, Source: http://www.acandyrose.com/atl2000-interviews-john-ramsey.txt


7 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I've got some
8 questions, Mr. Ramsey, that deal with fiber
9 evidence, and this is probably going to be
10 questions that your lawyer is going to advise
11 you not to answer, but I would like to pose
12 them to you.
...
21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
24 source is the collared black shirt that you
25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
2 A. . I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.

I suppose that in line 23 this was a typo, and it should read 'fibers' and not 'hairs', for the question was about fiber evidence.



From the Bonita papers (emphasis mine):

"During the vaginal examination, small dark colored fibers were found on JonBenet's external labia. A faint area of purple discoloration was noted on the right labia major. Vascular congestion was found along the inner membrane of the vaginal vault, and red water fluid, appearing to be blood, was present. The hymeneal opening had a mild abrasion, and the hymen appeared to have been torn. Dr. Meyer noted that the trauma to JonBenet's vaginal area was consistent with digital, rather than penile penetration. He was not able to determine if there had been previous trauma to the vaginal area. Dr. Meyer stated that it appeared that JonBenet's pubic area may have been cleaned, or at least wiped by someone using a towel or piece of clothing. Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area."

Are those 'small dark colored fibers' the same as the 'dark blue fibers' consistent with a cotton towel?
If yes, where does John Ramsey's black shirt come in, the fibers of which were allegedly found in JB's genital area too?

--
Edited by rashomon at 09/20/2006 12:47 PM
Click to expand...
interesting words: vaginal vault. i've never thought of that anatomy as being called a vault. perhaps it is-LOL.
no, not to joke, but i remember reading about his shirt fibers being found on jbr. explain that one jr
 
He couldn't explain it, ellen! he nearly wet himself!

You know there is more evidence here than there was with Scott Peterson. I am reading the transcript re the fibers and if ever there was someone with an attitude it is John. And I realize that some would say, well Levin is saying that the fibers match his shirt, but he has an overall attitude of bs. Anywhere he can bs, he does. He in no way, no way, sounds like a man who is distraught over his daughter and wants to find the killer.

I saw Marc Klass the other day and he is JUST NOW starting to look "regular" whatever that is. Before he looked out of his mind with grief. His eyes would dart all over the place, he was in bad shape.

Mr. Ramsey has never looked like that, never.
Click to expand...

A fact which is not lost on Mr, Klaas himself.

"I know in the transacripts they ask Patsy if photos were ever taken of JonBenet in the basement, and she says 'no, did you find some'. But they never really go into it anymore. Do you know more about that?"

"'No, did you find some.'" Oh, my God!

And yes, Meyer did remark on that to Det. Arndt. I have it right here:

"What was seen was not a first-time injury-not all of her injuries appeared to be recent."
 
Fervent Ramsey supporters try to fight the damaging fiber evidence tooth and nail, trying to muddy the waters by alleging that all this was "a police ploy intended to corner the Ramseys".
But this is not true. For the year 2000 interviews with the Ramseys were conducted by attorneys and NOT police officers.
And attorneys are covered by a code of ethics. They can not lie to anyone during an interview, and that includes suspects. It's quite different than police officers, who are not bound by those ethics. Thanks to knowledgeable posters here and on other forums who have pointed this out!

From Patsy's 2000 interview:

8 MR. LEVIN: I understand your
9 position.
10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are black fibers that,
16 according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.

Considering the fact that Levin is a lawyer bound by a code of ethics which does not permit him to lie during an interview, am I reading this right: fibers matching a shirt of John's were found both in JB's underpants as well as in the crotch area itself? For if yes, this is indeed totally incriminating evidence, and SuperDave's info was correct (he said that fibers from John's shirt were found in JB's crotch area too).
 
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