General discussion thread No. 15

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Well, this just widens the timeline by quite a bit. The famous tea on the beach with the other families didn't happen:

The children in the party were dropped at the Mark Warner creche in the morning - as they were on every day of the week-long holiday - and picked up at midday.


It is understood the McCanns then took Madeleine and the twins for a picnic lunch and they spent time at the beach and at the pool of the Ocean Club.


At 5.30pm, Mr McCann took part in a social tennis event inside the complex with the other men in the group, all doctors who had first met while working in a hospital together in Leicester.


Meanwhile, the children in the group ate their supper at the Paraiso restaurant close to the beach at Praia da Luz with their parents. The McCanns and their children were not present.
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So they weren't there...and if Gerry is playing tennis at 530, he was probably courtside earlier than that, which means that Kate was alone with the kids at 515 or earlier.

And the part of the story which describes the afternoon says, "It is understood that...'' That is a very weasely way of saying it- did the Mcs say it or did the staff or did the friends? So the time from which no one other than family saw Madeleine may be as early as 230/130- (camera time-) ... There are now as many as 7 hours to account for...
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=482870&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

Up until now I have been frustrated with this case but not necessarily angry with the "players". I have blamed the media for the disinformation and confusion. But this article has me fuming....:furious: :furious: :furious:

First we are told:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article2948182.ece

"according to Gerry McCann's sister Trish Cameron, "They've taken her! They've taken her!"

I have seen it reported many times that Trish Cameron is the source of that statement.

And now we are expected to believe that this was misunderstood and she actually said:

"Madeleine's gone, Madeleine's gone"????? Are you kidding me? So either Trish Cameron (Gerry's sister) is a bald-faced liar or she has serious hearing problems!

And this: "They also insist that both the child's parents were so utterly distraught it would be impossible for them to have killed the three-year-old several hours earlier."

Why would they not be distraught if they had??

And now: "A child spotted being carried away from the scene was not covered in a blanket as previously reported but was wearing pyjamas matching those worn by Madeleine."

Oh puhleeeease.....what a crock! So now Jane Tanner is going blind???

From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/11/wmaddy311.xml

"9:15pm Jane Tanner told police that at this time she went to check on her daughter, who was ill, and recalled seeing Mr McCann talking to Mr Wilkins. As she went into the apartment, she saw a man aged around 35 carrying a little girl wrapped in a blanket."

And this:

"The children in the party were dropped at the Mark Warner creche in the morning - as they were on every day of the week-long holiday - and picked up at midday.

It is understood the McCanns then took Madeleine and the twins for a picnic lunch and they spent time at the beach and at the pool of the Ocean Club.

At 5.30pm, Mr McCann took part in a social tennis event inside the complex with the other men in the group, all doctors who had first met while working in a hospital together in Leicester."

and: "Meanwhile, the children in the group ate their supper at the Paraiso restaurant close to the beach at Praia da Luz with their parents. The McCanns and their children were not present."

So now we have the children being picked up at mid-day??? And Gerry is off to play tennis at 5:30?? What happened to the reports yesterday that a restaurant manager saw Gerry playing with Madeleine on the beach up until 6:00PM??

See: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412741-details/Revealed:%20Gerry%20McCann's%20last%20dance%20with%20little%20Madeleine/article.do

"Mr Matias's evidence confirms Madeleine was alive and well at 6pm, when the family left the restaurant."

So either Mr. Matias is a bald-faced liar or challenged when it comes to telling time or the mid-day report is true and suddenly our window of opportunity is HUGE!!

Also:

"He entered the apartment through the unlocked patio doors but rather than entering the children's bedroom listened for any noise at the door.

Mr Oldfield could see the twins asleep in their cots sideby-side but Madeleine's bed was out of sight. In fact, the McCanns and their friends believe that by 9.30pm, Madeleine had already been abducted."

Look at the diagram of the apartment in the article. Can you see anyway that the above could be possible? See how the door opens? Listened at the door BUT he could see the twins cots BUT not Maddie's bed???? Another blind man.....:furious:

Nope, not buying it, not a bit of it. Now the McCanns look REALLY bad...in my eyes....


**Great minds Morag....;)**
 
Morag: Do you have the link to that? Where did you find the story?

That contradicts this story I saw yesterday:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007430636,00.html

Maddie's dance with dad Gerry

By ONLINE REPORTER
September 19, 2007

ONE of the last people to see missing Madeleine McCann has told how she danced with her dad on the seafront just hours before she disappeared.

Restaurant owner Miguel Matias, who has not spoken out until now, said the McCann family seemed like a perfectly normal family.

Kate and Gerry spent an hour at restaurant Paraiso on the beach of Praia da Luz with their holiday friends and children, who ate their dinner there.

Dad Gerry played with Madeleine in the sand in front of the balcony, pushing her on a swing before calling her over for food and an ice-cream.

Mr Matias said: "It was a perfectly normal, relaxed, happy, family scene. The little girl was even dancing on the esplanade with her dad to the sound of music that was playing. Mr Matias's evidence confirms Madeleine was alive and well at 6pm, when the family left the restaurant.
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Now I wonder if that is true? :confused:
 
Couldn't see Madeleine's bed, eh? Now, didn't the McCanns just say that Madeleine was sleeping with the twins, smack inbetween them?

I do hope the McCanns and their family keep talking.
 
Relax ladies! I give you Clarence Mitchell, spin doctor extraordinaire! Aided and abetted by the British press who want someone, anyone, to be guilty for Madeleine's disappearance as long as it isn't the middle-class, university-educated, powerfully-connected McCann parents.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007430636,00.html
Someone else asked, what are the chances this waiter was bribed? I'd say, pretty good.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=482870&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow
At 5.30pm, Mr McCann took part in a social tennis event inside the complex with the other men in the group, all doctors who had first met while working in a hospital together in Leicester.

Meanwhile, the children in the group ate their supper at the Paraiso restaurant close to the beach at Praia da Luz with their parents. The McCanns and their children were not present.

So we now can add an extra hour in where something might have happened to Madeleine. More and more I'm beginning to believe that one parent did this and the other didn't know until after the fact.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=482870&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow
Is anyone really surprised that the family is drawing in the wagons while the natives are circling? The whole world has heard what Kate said, and the family has had 4½ months to refute the statements. So why didn't they- before it became important? I also agree that it wouldn't have taken any acting skill to appear distraught at their daughter's fate, no matter who was responsible. It's reasonable to think the McCanns did love Madeleine and would be devastated at her death. Just let the emotions (and tears) flow.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/11/wmaddy311.xml
Jane Tanner has constantly changed her story since day 1. The police know this- that's why they apparently didn't put a lot of belief in her statements. I personally think she's coverning for her SO, but that's my own opinion.
 
Why would the McCann's have gone to that particular dinner? Maybe I'm confused but isn't it a fact that the McCann's ate dinner at the Tapas Bar that night?
 
philamena said:
Why would the McCann's gone to that particular dinner? Maybe I'm confused but isn't it a fact that the McCann's at dinner at the Tapas Bar that night?
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The twins were eating dinner early (don't know about Madeleine) and the adults were eating later.
 
I see what you're saying.
Is there any record of anyone seeing the twins at the early dinner?
Was Maddie confirmed being seen that evening at all? TIA
 
docwho3 said:
Because the last studies I ever saw quoted about the subject seemed to indicate the rate of abuse and other crimes was worse in low income households where education was also less. They have more stress and less knowhow to use in dealing with it.

As to the rest of your post which seemed to be bait for racial discussion: I don't think I will respond to such thoughts as that would be "taking the bait".


Has anyone stopped to think that just maybe the parents admission about leaving the children alone for a time was meant to sort of take the heat and suspicion off them for the more serious crime which perhaps only they knew had happened? It is an old old tactic to admit to a lesser sin to avoid having people find out about a much more serious crime.

Look how much wasted time and energy and attention has been spent in people getting angry about the lesser evil of leaving the children alone and whether or not this was child endangerment or not and so on while the attention paid to greater evil of the death of the missing little girl has paled by comparison. Were people then intentionally sidetracked?
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because as if it wasn't going to come out that they left their kids alone.
It was always going to be proven they left the kids unattended.
Hardly a tactic.
 
narlacat said:
because as if it wasn't going to come out that they left their kids alone.
It was always going to be proven they left the kids unattended.
Hardly a tactic.
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It is a tactic if the child was already dead before the dinner and the whole thing of not watching her was meant to be found out (whether they admitted it or it was proven by detectives and witnesses) as it then became the major distraction that diverted so many from investigating the case of parents in foul play because they are diverted to argue over whether the parents were or were not negligent and then getting angry over that aspect of things. It is the tactic of letting yourself appear to "get caught" at doing a stupid thing to avoid being considered for doing some evil thing with worse consequences.

Having said that: I am not accusing the parents of doing the crime. I am talking about a single possibility among many possibilities in this case. It is possible they did the crime and it is possible that the neglect was a tactic used in the cover up but it is not anything more than a possibility at this point. I just think the possibility needs to be considered before spending too much time worrying that old bone of the parental neglect.

Maybe that old bone was tossed out there to be found. :)
 
The problem with the story about Kate feeding the twins while Gerry played with Maddie is--when did Maddie get HER supper? She could easily feed herself while Kate helped the twins, with some supervision of Madeleine.

So the waiter story of Gerry playing with Maddie while Kate feeds the twins is already dicey. We know the adults plan on eating dinner later (and that makes sense, as an adult, I'm not up for dinner at 5:00 or so unless I'm working and going to be in bed by 10.)

I think it's very possible as well that the McCanns decided to go with the "we left them sleeping" line--as bad as it sounded--because it worked far better with the main strategy of "covering up what really happened." They could justify the eating in the restaurant, particularly if they came up with a "check on the kids" plan.

And that's why they are so, so insistent on the "not so far, checking on them frequently" line. They want to keep the emphasis on that more than anything else.

Jane Tanner is completely unreliable as a witness. She didn't specifically identify Murat, she didn't tell Kate immediately what she say (hello, your friend says her child was abducted and you don't mention that guy you saw carrying a child?) and she's changed her story about the blanket/pajamas.

I hope that the "anonymous donor" is getting his money's worth with Clarence, though, it's going to be coming at us fast and furious. Clarence has had 3-4 days to get his "stuff" in motion now.
 
On what floor was the McCanns' holiday apartment? Was it an on an upper floor? If yes, which floor?
Suppose an intruder snatched Madeleine from her bed - were there several ways he could have exited the apartment, or only one way?
 
So after months and months of news articles detailing how Kate ran back and said, "They've taken her!" now friends say she never said that.

The PJ is identified as having first quoted Kate as saying that, and that it was the first "alert" they had to something being not quite right.

If the PJ was going to make something up, they could have come up with a much better line.

If this was wrong, why did it take the McCann camp 4 months to correct it? They certainly were on top of every other misquote, questionable comment, and possible erroneous leak.
 
Morag said:
Here's the link:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=482870&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

I got this link on the previous page, where it was posted by (drum roll)-
ThoughtFox!
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:D Whoops, sorry - I'm even losing track of the articles that I post! ;)

I just don't get this about saying "They've taken her!" That information was repeated by a family member to the press, and supposedly drew the attention of the police, right?

Link

Gerry McCann returned to the restaurant at 9.25pm, having stopped to talk to an acquaintance, who confirmed this. A woman in a nearby apartment said that she had heard Madeleine crying for her parents for long periods, but she was unable to say on which nights. The next person to check the children was Kate McCann, at 10pm. She found Madeleine missing and ran back to the tapas bar, screaming, according to Gerry McCann's sister Trish Cameron, "They've taken her! They've taken her!" The odd use of the plural pronoun, if accurately reported, has raised eyebrows, and has not been explained away. Police also want to know why she assumed Madeleine had been abducted rather than wandered off.
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So now they are debunking what the sister said? :liar:
 
SOOOO
Gerry was dancing with Madeliene @ 6 pm or there abouts.
But , Gerry was playing tennis with other doctors @ 5;30 pm or there abouts!
But, Kate who was not at dinner came out shouting "They have taken HER!"
Later it discovered that the man with the child covered with the blanket had really covered the child with Maddie's pyjamas or ones like Maddie's.
But then it was discovered by Gerry's sister that Kate had really said "Madeliene's gone! Madeliene 's gone"

I'm as confused as the writers of these stories or is it the actors that are confused???
 
Schmerty_Jones said:
SOOOO
Gerry was dancing with Madeliene @ 6 pm or there abouts.
But , Gerry was playing tennis with other doctors @ 5;30 pm or there abouts!
But, Kate who was not at dinner came out shouting "They have taken HER!"
Later it discovered that the man with the child covered with the blanket had really covered the child with Maddie's pyjamas or ones like Maddie's.
But then it was discovered by Gerry's sister that Kate had really said "Madeliene's gone! Madeliene 's gone"

I'm as confused as the writers of these stories or is it the actors that are confused???
Click to expand...
It is confusing.

I have recently been reading this:
". . . Three key words that pointed the finger of suspicion at Kate McCann were finally laid to rest yesterday. Friends insisted she never screamed "They've taken her!" when she discovered Madeleine had vanished. . . "

". . . Instead, she came running frantically from the family's holiday apartment shouting "Madeleine's gone! Madeleine's gone!". . ."

". . . But last night an eyewitness to events of May 3 was able to rubbish the claims.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, the witness said the couple had been so visibly horrified they could not have been acting. . ."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482870&in_page_id=1770

Note: I added the bolding.

This whole case has been confusing but I can sort of see why L.E. have been leaking stuff for use in a sort of psych attempt to jar the parents into believeing the police know more and have more proof than they really have in order to get the parents to break down and confess to what happened. Perhaps if you don't have lots of good tech stuff and other modern things and good laws and great training to work with you use a psych approach.
 
Now the family is "supposedly" offering to take a lie-detector test (I wouldn't hold your breath on that one!)

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/latest-national-news/McCanns-offer-to-take-lie.3220922.jp

The parents of Madeleine McCann are prepared to take a lie detector test to prove their innocence, it has been revealed.
Friends say Kate and Gerry McCann want to show they have nothing to hide over the disappearance of the four year old who went missing on a family holiday in Portugal in May. The couple's decision is the latest stage in a high-profile fightback led by family and friends against police suspicions ...
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And then this about how the cadaver dogs merely smelled some rubbish in the car:

The couple believe its use as a "dumper truck" ferrying rotting meat, chicken carcasses and food scraps to nearby bins during the summer could also explain the excited reaction of specialist sniffer dogs when shown the car last month as part of a review of the case.
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